Targeting & Injuries

I think the assessment that Hundley is the man, after 3 years of training from "the quarterback whisperer" and another season of Dom's Day defense effectively derailed our season.

Yelp.   Unfortunately, the lack of wins by BH made AR's first game back a MUST WIN.  No room for error.  I   believe AR makes those 2 throws for TD's once he gets back in the game-mode groove. 

JimBobDuggar posted:

I think the assessment that Hundley is the man, after 3 years of training from "the quarterback whisperer" and another season of Dom's Day defense effectively derailed our season.

I was as critical of Hundley as anyone on this board, and I don't think he's ever going to be even an average NFL starting QB, but he's not a terrible NFL backup guy. Guys like Scott Tolzien, Drew Stanton, and Colt McCoy hang around for years. Hundley can't read defenses, has no pocket presence, and has no accuracy more than 10 yards past the LOS. However, he can run for first downs and execute simple reads decisively in a spread offense. That's what you get with a backup QB. No one can afford a 10 million dollar backup.

The problem is that the defense has enough talent to be a helluva lot better than they've played. Dom has to go.

They've had 8 picks in the first two rounds of the draft the last 4 years. They've drafted 2 offensive players. One was a good pick (D. Adams). The other is Spriggs. They've drafted 10 guys in the 3rd and 4th rounds the last 4 years. 3 of the 10 were on offense and resulted in some average to below-average players (Jamaal Williams, RichRod, and Montgomery). 13 of 18 1st-4th round picks the last 4 years were on defense which were added to a roster that already had Matthews, Burnett, and Mike Daniels. If half those guys worked out, they should be a top 10 defense. I find it hard to believe that TT missed on most of those picks.

The problem on offense is when you go four years and add one guy from the first four rounds of the draft that's a real difference maker, you are going to pay for it at some point. They have 3 guys on offense right now that you'd say are potential Pro-Bowl level (Rodgers, Adams, and Bak). The OGs and C are OK, but are a huge dropoff from Sutton and Lang from two years ago. Bulaga is probably done and Jahri Evans played decently but is a stopgap. The RB situation looks solid -that's the one area of improvement.

They got away with this lack of investment in offensive talent because they have a HOF QB playing.

They go into next year having to upgrade at RT since Spriggs is awful. They may need a new RG. They may need to add as many as 3 new WRS and 2 TEs. They can't assume that Rodgers will cover up the talent deficiencies they have on offense and continue to draft defensive guys at the top of the draft over and over again.

I agree with most of the assessment with the exception of Hundley not being a terrible backup.  Minnesota is doing fine with Case Keenum, Nick Foles is so far playing well in Philly...both guys have some experience.  Hundley had 2 games with less than 90 yards passing, one being an OT game.  84 yards passing in a 5 quarter game.  Really?  I would have expected more out of a 3rd year guy in the QB whisperers system.

Lambeau Lobo posted:

I get it. Our team has some serious issues and deficiencies, but in the end, two targeting plays (Barr on Rodgers; Davis on Adams) effectively derailed our season. Not getting beat straight up. Opponents targeting our best players and eliminating them via injury.  If the opponents didn't use that approach, we'd be talking playoffs right now.  It's incredibly frustrating. 

It's getting ridiculous.  This is supposed to be the "era of player safety," but the NFL and the NFLPA is not doing anything to effectively address the issue.  You need to implement more stringent rules, with ejections and suspensions being handed down in a consistent manner. 

 

I think we will see a targeting rule coming to the NFL probably next year.  I think there have been rumblings of it and to me if the NFL is really serious about player safety they need to put this rule in.  And I think they should also expand it to defenseless players who don't have the ball.  For instance there have been some plays this year when  guy is obviously out of the play and someone comes in and levels them.

What I would like to see is not only the targeted player kicked out, fined, and suspended.  I think they should be suspended for the same amount of time that the player they concussed/hurt is out.  I get it when defensive players don't know where to hit anymore but what they do need to learn is that the days of leading with your head and launching yourself has to be over.

To me for the Packers to improve it really isn't rocket science.  Improve the OL, draft/invest on defense, get another backup QB, and it goes without saying Dom needs to go.   I will still say it that if you improve that defensive coaching staff and fill in some players on defense they will take a big step next year.  If the defense takes a nice step so will the rest of the team.

#defensewinschampionships

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/...-receiver-concussion

Sounds like Mr. Brown doesn't care about his mental health or his fellow football players mental health AFTER football.

Zach Brown is part of the problem if that's still his mentality.  dumbass.

Barr hit on AR was completely legal according to the league. Used to love those blindside hits when I was young but it's a different time now and they need to be eliminated. Fines aren't doing it and relatively stiff suspensions are warranted.

michiganjoe posted:

Barr hit on AR was completely legal according to the league. Used to love those blindside hits when I was young but it's a different time now and they need to be eliminated. Fines aren't doing it and relatively stiff suspensions are warranted.

Disagree that it was legal. Brady would have drawn a flag.

 I don't mind my QB getting hit after he releases the ball, but to release the ball when the defender has a clear look at you, takes 2 steps, hits, wrap up, drive, and land with all of your weight ....is dirty. 

I thought Barr could have let up and drove AR into the ground but the league didn't agree. Think they're hesitant unless it's really blatant.

The NFL is suspending #Panthers LB Thomas Davis 2 games for his hit on Sunday.

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) December 18, 2017

WOW.  But I guess he'll appeal it down to 1.  Should be for the playoffs considering knocking DA out of the game pretty much knocked GB out of the playoffs.

DH13 posted:

WOW.  But I guess he'll appeal it down to 1.  Should be for the playoffs considering knocking DA out of the game pretty much knocked GB out of the playoffs.

Yes. If Travathon was able to, he'll be able to.

The annoying thing is the players association seems to be more concerned about protecting their guys from the suspensions than in changing the behavior that causes the injuries. Maybe because their guys lose money immediately in the first scenario?

Davis suspension will stick at two games. He’s a recent repeat offender. 

Barr’s hit wasn’t illegal. He didn’t have the best interest of a fellow players health in mind either. What he did do was level the competition within the division. I have no doubt that’s what the intent was. In that regard he accomplished a great deal. 

Only way you stop this is to hit them in the wallet. Fine them a percentage of their salary, so a guy making the league minimum feels it the same as a guy making $11 million a year. Take $1 million out of a guys pocket, I bet he doesn't make a hit like that again.

NFL needs to adopt some sort of targeting rule like the NCAA. You take a player out during the game and it is deemed a target play, you sit down as well. 

Also, the league needs to expand rosters and game day actives.

Davis was given a two game suspension.

JimBobDuggar posted:

I would have expected more out of a 3rd year guy in the QB whisperers system.

Your expectations were unreasonable.

NFLPA will limit fines in next CBA.  No way they have a 1M fine.  Doing what ncaa does with sitting offender seems most workable.  

The NFLPA has a whole lot of things to consider in the next negotiation.

FinnLander posted:

JimBobDuggar posted:

I would have expected more out of a 3rd year guy in the QB whisperers system.

Your expectations were unreasonable.

This pretty much sums it up.

https://www.jsonline.com/story...ontending/939547001/

michiganjoe posted:

... Used to love those blindside hits when I was young but it's a different time now...

I still love 'em!
But, there is a world of difference between making a hit head up and leading with a shoulder as opposed to leading with your head and targeting a specific spot to hit. Much less launching yourself at the target...

As far as suspensions are concerned, I think it should mimic drug suspensions, at the very least. 1 game for a first offense is mostly fair to everyone (because unintentional h2h hits can happen), 4 weeks for 2nd time, and so on.
Fines could equal their game check(s). 

The correct way to blindside block.    Took him out of the play by decleating him with his own momentum.  Obviously no intent to harm.

https://media.giphy.com/media/STdjPNVH5yxEI/giphy.gif 

 Quote from Gum Chomper..

"Sherman got up and patted Fitzgerald on the helmet to say, "nice hit."

"It's still a big hit," Carroll said. "But it could have been a colossal collision had he taken full advantage of the opportunity, and he didn't. His poise and his character demonstrated that he understands. That's really cool stuff and that's where the league is going. We can do this."

Fitzgerald had a similar hit on Seahawks cornerback Walter Thurmond that Carroll also sent to the NFL offices.

"I sent those plays to make that statement," Carroll said. "Let's demonstrate that guys like that are turning the corner and do get it. That message should go throughout pro football, throughout college football and down to the young kids playing so they can see the game can be played differently."

BrainDed posted:

The correct way to blindside block.    Took him out of the play by decleating him with his own momentum.  Obviously no intent to harm.

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/STdjPNVH5yxEI/giphy.gif 

 

Classy and effective job by Fitzgerald. decent competitor who cut us up.

We have a history with Davis.  In 2005 he ended Terrence Murphy 's career with a helmet-to-helmet hit on a kickoff return.  I remember him initially standing over and taunting Murphy as he laid there. 

My question is this: does anyone have a photo, gif, video, etc. of that hit and taunt?  I tried the Google machine and came up empty handed.

MichiganPacker posted:

JimBobDuggar posted:

I think the assessment that Hundley is the man, after 3 years of training from "the quarterback whisperer" and another season of Dom's Day defense effectively derailed our season.

I was as critical of Hundley as anyone on this board, and I don't think he's ever going to be even an average NFL starting QB, but he's not a terrible NFL backup guy. Guys like Scott Tolzien, Drew Stanton, and Colt McCoy hang around for years. Hundley can't read defenses, has no pocket presence, and has no accuracy more than 10 yards past the LOS. However, he can run for first downs and execute simple reads decisively in a spread offense. That's what you get with a backup QB. No one can afford a 10 million dollar backup.

The problem is that the defense has enough talent to be a helluva lot better than they've played. Dom has to go.

They've had 8 picks in the first two rounds of the draft the last 4 years. They've drafted 2 offensive players. One was a good pick (D. Adams). The other is Spriggs. They've drafted 10 guys in the 3rd and 4th rounds the last 4 years. 3 of the 10 were on offense and resulted in some average to below-average players (Jamaal Williams, RichRod, and Montgomery). 13 of 18 1st-4th round picks the last 4 years were on defense which were added to a roster that already had Matthews, Burnett, and Mike Daniels. If half those guys worked out, they should be a top 10 defense. I find it hard to believe that TT missed on most of those picks.

The problem on offense is when you go four years and add one guy from the first four rounds of the draft that's a real difference maker, you are going to pay for it at some point. They have 3 guys on offense right now that you'd say are potential Pro-Bowl level (Rodgers, Adams, and Bak). The OGs and C are OK, but are a huge dropoff from Sutton and Lang from two years ago. Bulaga is probably done and Jahri Evans played decently but is a stopgap. The RB situation looks solid -that's the one area of improvement.

They got away with this lack of investment in offensive talent because they have a HOF QB playing.

They go into next year having to upgrade at RT since Spriggs is awful. They may need a new RG. They may need to add as many as 3 new WRS and 2 TEs. They can't assume that Rodgers will cover up the talent deficiencies they have on offense and continue to draft defensive guys at the top of the draft over and over again.

 

Spriggs has been holding up at right tackle. 

He's been awful. Like in an embarrassing that Thompson would use a D2 for him kind of way.  

michiganjoe posted:

Barr hit on AR was completely legal according to the league. Used to love those blindside hits when I was young but it's a different time now and they need to be eliminated. Fines aren't doing it and relatively stiff suspensions are warranted.

The way I see it, the hit wasn't that bad, BUT...

He gave a little extra on perhaps the finest player in the league well after that player had any impact on the play.

It wasn't severe, but that little extra was just plain wrong.

"Spriggs has been holding up at right tackle. "

What games have you been watching?

I never did see/hear/read why Spriggs was suddenly starting instead of McCray after returning from IR . I realize McCray was playing out of position, but at least he could get in somebody's way on occasion. He hasn't been on the injury reports, and hasn't been a scratch on game day.

Spriggs, OTOH, was a known commodity before IR. He wasn't going to improve during rehab, and the results have been predictable.

Spriggs has had some rough times, but he has not played nearly as bad as some have been crowing.

Love Fitz and the way he plays the game. Not a showboater, not a cheap player, just a guy who plays the right way with class. 

Link

They have Spriggs responsible for 2.5 sacks Sunday.......in the fourth quarter. 

michiganjoe posted:

Link

They have Spriggs responsible for 2.5 sacks Sunday.......in the fourth quarter. 

That's accurate, but it supports the increasingly obvious narrative that TT owes his career to Rodgers alone so I will choose to ignore it. 

Hungry5 posted:

Spriggs has had some rough times, but he has not played nearly as bad as some have been crowing.

Agree. 

Us fans have been a bit spoiled as far as OL as well as QB. Clifton and Bag O' Donuts were rocks for years and years; Sitton and Lang were excellent for so long; Bak stepped right in and played well as did Lindsley; Lane... who knew he'd be so good? Evans has been serviceable and reliable. McCray has been a surprise as a stop-gap. Bulaga took a bit, but found a home at RT and just can't stay healthy. 

Today when a guy messes up or doesn't develop as fast as some others, like Spriggs, we're all over it because we're used to better. 

Fandame posted:

Us fans have been a bit spoiled as far as OL as well as QB. Clifton and Bag O' Donuts were rocks for years and years; Sitton and Lang were excellent for so long; Bak stepped right in and played well as did Lindsley; Lane... who knew he'd be so good? Evans has been serviceable and reliable. McCray has been a surprise as a stop-gap. Bulaga took a bit, but found a home at RT and just can't stay healthy. 

Today when a guy messes up or doesn't develop as fast as some others, like Spriggs, we're all over it because we're used to better. 

You expect some guys to be projects when you are developing 5th round picks (Linsley) and UDFAs (Lane Taylor, McCray). McCray and Taylor, when he was developing, were on minimum contracts. They are probably good enough players to win with right now.

Spriggs was a 2nd round pick (48th overall) and TT thought so highly of him they gave up 4th and 7th round picks to move up 9 spots in the 2nd round to get him. 2nd round picks that are not QBs should be at least be serviceable backups very early in their careers.

Bulaga was a first round pick (23rd overall) but he started 12 games as a first year guy and at the time was the youngest player ever to start in a Super Bowl. I'm not sure what you meant by he "took a bit"

The one caveat to all this is if Spriggs has really been playing hurt this whole year. Davante Adams looked terrible a couple of years ago, but we found out after the season he was playing on one leg and really shouldn't have been out there. Maybe that's the case for Spriggs. At least I hope.