Team needs

My bad - that's correct. Barnett was a Sherman guy, and a good 1st round pick.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
I'm not going to bother arguing the definition of "scrap heap." Pickett was lightly regarded, lightly pursued by other teams, and didn't get all that much cash from the Packers. He's exceeded expectations and proven to be a good pickup. Is he all that integral to the Packers current success? I don't think so. Would it be all that difficult to find someone else to fill his role? Probably not--again, if your GM is any good, he can find guys like Pickett when necessary without splurging.

You're not going to argue "scrap heap" because it doesn't support your argument and because you're dead wrong. It also seems you have a bit of selective memory since I recall that Pickett was regarded as one of the top available interior lineman that year.

Pickett also has the 12th highest salary (now that Ferguson's gone) on the team (more than Bubba and Wells), and a cap figure this year of 2.5 million.

"Scrap heap" my fanny.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
But the fact remains that most of the solid players on this defense were drafted, signed, or traded for by Wolf or Sherman. (In retrospect, though, maybe Sherman the coach made Sherman the GM look even worse than he actually was.)

I'm working through this as I put it together, so no preconceived notions here, but this is how the starting D stacks up:

Jenkins - IIRC, he's been around for both regimes;
Pickett - TT, and in no way is he "lightly regarded," nor was he when he signed.
Williams - Sherman
Kampman - Sherman
Hawk - TT
Barnett - TT
Pop - TT
Harris - Sherman, and probably his best trade.
Woodson - TT
Collins - TT
Bigby/Whoever - TT

That's 3 or 3.5 Sugar Bear guys out of 11, depending on how you classify Jenkins. 3.5 of 11 isn't "most," and I think it'd be hard to argue that the LB's and DL have gotten better with superior coaching to the previous regime. The same stool is coaching the DB's, so that's a wash, but there is better talent there.

I'm starting to feel bad.....thought I said much of the same on page one.



Overall talent has changed for the better, depth has changed for the better, coaching has changed for the better, players are being properly used, scheme is better, etcccc ....(repeat)

Packdog -

While your post is similar, that was a whole page ago - I'm way too lazy to look that up.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
But the fact remains that most of the solid players on this defense were drafted, signed, or traded for by Wolf or Sherman. (In retrospect, though, maybe Sherman the coach made Sherman the GM look even worse than he actually was.)

I'm working through this as I put it together, so no preconceived notions here, but this is how the starting D stacks up:

Jenkins - IIRC, he's been around for both regimes;
Pickett - TT, and in no way is he "lightly regarded," nor was he when he signed.
Williams - Sherman
Kampman - Sherman
Hawk - TT
Barnett - TT
Pop - TT
Harris - Sherman, and probably his best trade.
Woodson - TT
Collins - TT
Bigby/Whoever - TT

That's 3 or 3.5 Sugar Bear guys out of 11, depending on how you classify Jenkins. 3.5 of 11 isn't "most," and I think it'd be hard to argue that the LB's and DL have gotten better with superior coaching to the previous regime. The same stool is coaching the DB's, so that's a wash, but there is better talent there.

I don't know where people get the impression that I'm a big fan of Sherman. My contention is just this: in terms of personnel, TT hasn't added a whole lot beyond Hawk and Woodson, and given what we gave up to get them, they should be good. Like MichiganPacker said, though, it's a nice thing those moves worked out, and if most of Thompson's picks in the top half of the draft and big-money signings perform that well, the Packers will be in good shape for years to come.

Let's break it down by position.

Basically, Wolf and Sherman are responsible for the defensive line. Grady Jackson broke down, and TT replaced him with Pickett. Again, good move, but I don't think Pickett's an exceptional player, and I wouldn't be surprised if the defensive line got by just fine if Pickett blew out his knee and missed the season. Cole's a pretty good run stuffer.


LBs: as the defensive line gets better, so does Barnett. Typical pattern for speedy, undersized LBs. Hawk was a big addition. Pop's just a guy. Even at the end of his rope, I don't know that the Packers were much worse off with Diggs.

Secondary: We all know how good Woodson is, and how bad Carrol was. As good as the rest of the defense appears to be now, they'd probably still be in trouble with a terrible LCB. Harris was a Sherman guy. Collins is no better than Sharper--just cheaper and younger, and thus far, less of a playmaker. Mark Roman was awful. TT still hasn't found someone better.

Pickett vs. Gravy and Pop vs. Diggs = HUGE upgrade in speed and durability since Pop got back from his knee. That's the first thing I noticed this PS with the first defense - they're as fast as I've seen them in a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:
Pickett vs. Gravy and Pop vs. Diggs = HUGE upgrade in speed and durability since Pop got back from his knee. That's the first thing I noticed this PS with the first defense - they're as fast as I've seen them in a long time.

What stands out to me is the fire and intensity. The defense is fast and is swarming around the football. During the Jags game, I noticed Hawk in the pile punching the RB trying get the ball loose. The boys are aggressive.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
Mark Roman was awful. TT still hasn't found someone better.

I completely agree Roman was awful, but I would not be so sure of your second sentence.

Bigby may very well be in the process of making a name for himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
Mark Roman was awful. TT still hasn't found someone better.

I completely agree Roman was awful, but I would not be so sure of your second sentence.

Bigby may very well be in the process of making a name for himself.

Who was that mope of a CB Sherman had starting that one year... Hawthorne? Good God have we come a long ways!

Well, I hope so. God knows Marquand Manuel will never be making a name for himself. Even if the safeties remain mediocre or worse, hopefully it'll be less noticeable this year. A good push up front can cover up lots of blown assignments.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
Well, I hope so. God knows Marquand Manuel will never be making a name for himself. Even if the safeties remain mediocre or worse, hopefully it'll be less noticeable this year. A good push up front can cover up lots of blown assignments.

I disagree - Manual has already made a name for himself, and I used it almost every game I watched last year, it went something like, "F***in' Manual!!"

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
I'm not going to bother arguing the definition of "scrap heap." Pickett was lightly regarded, lightly pursued by other teams, and didn't get all that much cash from the Packers. He's exceeded expectations and proven to be a good pickup. Is he all that integral to the Packers current success? I don't think so. Would it be all that difficult to find someone else to fill his role? Probably not--again, if your GM is any good, he can find guys like Pickett when necessary without splurging.

The coaches disagree with you about Jolly and Poppinga. You seem to try and say certain players are integral and others aren't. It doesn't work that way. The simple fact is Pickett plugged up the middle and helped the defensive line improve against the run. He is part of a team and his presence allowed Jenkins to move outside and the both DE positions to become more effective.

Pickett had a good offer from BUF didn't he?


If you think Pickett's easily replacable then you don't watch him. I'm not his PR guy but he's a frickin' bull.

He's the anchor GB wanted in Grady...but younger and with no BS. He's got the strongest anchor of GB's DT's...and I doubt it's close.

They paid him pretty well and it's working out fine - how can THAT be an issue?

jsonline re: pickett


Reportedly $3M/yr offer from BUF. Here endeth the lesson.

Hmm. Didn't think Pickett had gotten that much coin. Guess he was more mid-level than scrap heap.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
Hmm. Didn't think Pickett had gotten that much coin. Guess he was more mid-level than scrap heap.

Try again.

I was wr..

I was wrooo...

You can do it.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

quote:

Hell, we could've got them off the scrap heap.

Pickett was picked off the scrap heap. Jolley was a late-round pick, and is nothing special. Like I said, any GM with an eye for talent could find similar players without expending much in terms of money or picks--they're not special talents (especially Jolley, who probably isn't even as good as Colin Cole).

From JSonline:

Jolly the scrub

Overweight and unable to finish the fitness test all players are required to take before the start of camp, Jolly had to sit out four practices, along with fellow defensive tackle Ryan Pickett, in order to improve his conditioning.

All along, however, the coaches knew there was a reason Jolly fell behind in his workouts and they weren't down on him about it. And almost as quickly as he passed his conditioning test, Jolly was zipping up the depth chart, so far that he might supplant veteran Corey Williams at the starting right tackle position.

"There's a chance Johnny Jolly may run out of the tunnel as a starter on opening day, that's what I think of him," coach Mike McCarthy said. "He's a tough guy, a very instinctive player for a defensive tackle. He intercepted that screen (pass) the other day in practice. My God, that was an impressive play. So, I cannot be more pleased with him."

Jolly is a real POS. So bad he's blowing by Williams to become the starter. Good call.

If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

Of course you are. Wrrrur . . rurrr . . rrrruuurr . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

Wow...your glass isn't half-empty...it's shattered on the floor. Couldn't it be possible that Williams is performing at a high level, but Jolly is performing at an even higher level? This is exactly what most fans have been hoping for: Positional Depth.

Unless there have been indications that Corey Williams is slacking off, I have no reason to believe he is slipping, especially given the fact that he will be a free agent after this season.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

Of course you are. Wrrrur . . rurrr . . rrrruuurr . . . .

Uhh, let's see something from him in an actual game before we declare who's right and who's wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

Of course you are. Wrrrur . . rurrr . . rrrruuurr . . . .

Uhh, let's see something from him in an actual game before we declare who's right and who's wrong.

Because it's so important to be right.

You almost sound like you're rooting against the guy.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

When you draft #5 overall, you should get a player like Hawk. And when you spend many millions on a corner, he should give you at least a few good seasons.

No credit to TT for drafting well at the top and signing good players with his big money FAs? LOL, lets look at Wolf's record of drafting at the very top and Sherman's record of signing big money free agents.

BTW, I agree with you. The biggest difference in this defence is the line made up largely of players Sherman signed or drafted. What is the difference? They developed. What a liberty! You mean you don't have to sign big money free agents to get better?

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Next years draft we'll need to address:

1st - Left Tackle - Clifton isn't going to last much longer.

2nd - Runningback - Even if Morency works out he's already 27 and won't have that many years left.

3rd - Tight End - Unless TT brings in a good TE (like L.J. Smith), we'll need a TE that is fast and a good receiver.

4th - Guard - I think Spitz will take over at Center in a year or two so we'll need competition for Barbre and Moll at guard.

5th - Corner - Even though Bush and Blackmon are looking alright, I think we need more depth.

6th - Fullback - We need a guy who can be the long term starter. Hall might be that guy, who knows but I think we still need to look.

7th - Linebacker - Depth.

Next year's draft we need to collect all the best players we can get regardless of position. Leave the target work for free agency.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

Of course you are. Wrrrur . . rurrr . . rrrruuurr . . . .

Uhh, let's see something from him in an actual game before we declare who's right and who's wrong.

Da Vinci code

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

When you draft #5 overall, you should get a player like Hawk. And when you spend many millions on a corner, he should give you at least a few good seasons.

No credit to TT for drafting well at the top and signing good players with his big money FAs? LOL, lets look at Wolf's record of drafting at the very top and Sherman's record of signing big money free agents.

BTW, I agree with you. The biggest difference in this defence is the line made up largely of players Sherman signed or drafted. What is the difference? They developed. What a liberty! You mean you don't have to sign big money free agents to get better?

Like I said, if Thompson continues to hit on high draft picks and big-money signings, we'll be in good shape. But we are working with a small sample size at this point, and I think it's likely that the difference between the Joe Johnson signing and the Woodson signing was just luck. Both were older players with a serious injury history, and if anything, Woodson was the bigger malcontent.

Of course, we have to balance free agent gains with free agent losses. Imagine how much better this team would look with Wahle and Walker? Add a decent RB, and I think you have a Super Bowl contender. (It would be extremely difficult to argue with a straight face that we haven't had enough cap room available in the last couple years to make deals for Woodson, Wahle, and Walker feasible, though Brandt would've had to make some adjustments in '04 to slightly backload a few deals.)

quote:

I also think they should be looking for another QB to develop behind Rodgers as well.

The same thing said every year.

I think we should only go for a QB if he is the best player available.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
If that's actually true, I'd be more concerned with Williams slipping than I would be happy with Jolly's progress--I don't think we'll see a 7 sack season from the latter any time soon.

Of course you are. Wrrrur . . rurrr . . rrrruuurr . . . .

Uhh, let's see something from him in an actual game before we declare who's right and who's wrong.

Looks to me that they are inferring you should say you were wrong about Pickett being a cheap scrap heap acquisition. . . .

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:

When you draft #5 overall, you should get a player like Hawk. And when you spend many millions on a corner, he should give you at least a few good seasons.

No credit to TT for drafting well at the top and signing good players with his big money FAs? LOL, lets look at Wolf's record of drafting at the very top and Sherman's record of signing big money free agents.

BTW, I agree with you. The biggest difference in this defence is the line made up largely of players Sherman signed or drafted. What is the difference? They developed. What a liberty! You mean you don't have to sign big money free agents to get better?

Like I said, if Thompson continues to hit on high draft picks and big-money signings, we'll be in good shape. But we are working with a small sample size at this point, and I think it's likely that the difference between the Joe Johnson signing and the Woodson signing was just luck. Both were older players with a serious injury history, and if anything, Woodson was the bigger malcontent.

Of course, we have to balance free agent gains with free agent losses. Imagine how much better this team would look with Wahle and Walker? Add a decent RB, and I think you have a Super Bowl contender.

You're the king of "if and but". Are you really going to drag out the whole Wahle and Walker bs? You don't even know how Wahle would've adjusted to the ZBS even if they could've kept him without killing the cap for the next 5 years. Clifton and Tauscher still aren't adapting that well to the ZBS in the run game. The O-line looks solid when they get back to pulling in a traditional scheme. Colledge and Spitz have been solid in replacing Wahle/Rivera.

The Walker argument is just like the Moss argument. Bottom line is the WR spot is being filled with solid players who are contributing.

I thought Woodson was a malcontent as well but it turns out he's just a different, if not quiet, kind of guy. I fully admit I didn't want to see the signing of Woodson but after reading a lot of different perspectives it would appear TT picked up a solid player who kind of slid off the radar of other teams in FA. His only rap was injury and he's come to Green Bay and become a real leader with Al Harris. There's more than just luck in that equation and I find that term to be rather opportunistic for the sake of argument.

Whether you agree with the principal or not, you cannot deny what TT did was to start from the beginning with a fresh cap approach and that meant cutting a lot of players cluttering up the cap landscape. Wahle was about the only player of real value who became a casualty and that's because he didn't want to play ball and didn't like Green Bay in the first place. It's the price of rebuilding.

Walker was a entirely different situation dealing with a big ego malcontent. TT doesn't value the WR position as much as other positions to dole out huge cash for a whiny hold out. I applaud the move. He's shown he rewards players who consistently prove themselves, like Harris and Driver.

The argument of TT not spending cash or going after solid players doesn't hold water so the "luck" label seems silly. He re-signed Kampman, Jenkins, Barnett, Harris, etc. and without a hiccup. I would think everyone would applaud the "you play, you get paid" approach. Can you imagine what a steal Jenkins deal will look like if he blows up at RDE? He kept the guy in the fold for two more years with a really nice incentive contract that'll allow him to cash if he is consistently a solid player. That's excellent for both sides. It's the exact opposite of the Walker bs holdout.

edit: Let me respond to your edit. 1.9 million in cap space, Wahle had a 11 million dollar option that he wasn't going to waive. Even if Wahle and Walker signed some stupid backloaded contracts and took a vet minimum in the first year, how much room does that leave you? Squat, and you've just pooched your cap for another 5 years and you haven't even signed your top 5 draft choice yet. Yeah, see how far asking guys to take a salary reduction on a 4-12 team will get you. Then you've got TWO players surrounded by a team falling apart and the solid players who remain with upcoming contracts and no defensive FAs.

You were one who proclaimed Green Bay would have to overpay for FAs. Well, what the hell would they use to bring in big names that everyone is clamoring for to climb out of a 4-12 cellar? Does it make any sense at all to spend money like you're on the verge of a championship after that horsecrap season? Does it make any sense to try and maintain the status quo of the previous failed regime, who also happens to be your disgruntled coach who won't work with the new GM? Does it make any sense to hamstring the team with a new coaching staff/scheme who's probably not going to follow the same coaching style as Sherman?

Considering the plan is to build a solid defense, continuing in the Sherman mode of pretty numbers on offense, a crappy defense only to collapse in the playoffs with a huge cap to accompany it all doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense. Try and say that with a straight face.

quote:

Originally posted by PhxPacker:

quote:

I also think they should be looking for another QB to develop behind Rodgers as well.

The same thing said every year.

I think we should only go for a QB if he is the best player available.

Why? Wolf's strategy was to bring in QBs on a regular basis because the position is so important. It has nothing to do with Rodgers ability, it just makes good sense to have a couple of solid prospects developing at QB for competition sake and for future needs.

Scrambling around for a vet QB isn't as sure fire as some would make out. Oakland is deciding between Josh McCown and Daunte Culpepper right now. I'd rather have two young QBs and maybe one vet but a long term vet, not some "we need a QB" now vet much like the Vikings are dealing with at the present moment.

Couple points.


First, yes, a sample size of two is tiny, and no definitive conclusions about TT's acumen can be drawn from them alone.

Second, there was simply no need to sacrifice Wahle and Walker. Plenty of free cap money the last couple seasons--we recently still had $10 million still on the table this summer, I believe. Packers have been busy frontloading deals to free up space down the road. I'd rather have Wahle and Walker now--Pro Bowl-caliber talents in their prime who should have at least several good seasons left. (The roster bonus stuff is BS. There's never been any indication that Wahle wouldn't accepted an offer from the Packers similar to what Carolina gave him. In retrospect, Carolina got a bargain, and I said so at the time.)

And if players like Clifton, Wahle, and Tauscher can't adjust to the zone blocking scheme, maybe there's something wrong with the scheme.

One of the main reasons we have cap space NOW is because of the Wahle situation. Do you suppose that space just suddenly appeared? The cap became manageable when Wahle's contract was off the books and when Darren Sharper was let go.

No, I don't suppose that. I presume I'd rather have Wahle now then the cap space. I'd also rather have Walker now than the cap space. If Bigby busts out, you could even make a case for Sharper over the space.

quote:

Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy:

"We like to praise birds for flying. But how much of it is actually flying, and how much of it is just sort of coasting from the previous flap?"

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
No, I don't suppose that. I presume I'd rather have Wahle now then the cap space. I'd also rather have Walker now than the cap space. If Bigby busts out, you could even make a case for Sharper over the space.

But in order to get the cap space to keep Wahle the Packers had to, ummm....get rid of Wahle.

quote:

Originally posted by lukey:
(The roster bonus stuff is BS. There's never been any indication that Wahle wouldn't accepted an offer from the Packers similar to what Carolina gave him. In retrospect, Carolina got a bargain, and I said so at the time.)

There is no BS about it. He was NOT going to waive the 11 million dollar bonus and it was stated so in several publications. What did Wahle receive in his first year with Carolina? 1 million base salary. You tell me how a Walker contract gets put in there? It doesn't.

The Packers have a ton of cap space the last couple of years because they unloaded contracts like the ones you proposed and Sherman used to drain the cap away. You ignore all the other factors in this argument and have since day one. Wahle didn't like Green Bay. You've just tied up 1/6th of your salary cap on three players on the O-line when you're trying to build a defense as well.

You can throw out all the "Brandt would've made it happen" psuedo-facts all you want. It wasn't the plan of a team coming off a 4-12 season to dump a bunch of money on two freakin' players on offense and ignore the defense. Go ahead and relive the 80's were there was a couple of nice players and a mediocre supporting cast. Of course, you probably don't remember those days.

Unless it's definitive that Walker is a malcontent head-case, I certainly am open to the idea lukey is right about him.

I think he may be a special, special player.

I guess we'll see.

On Wahle? No. Better to have let him go and draft for his replacement.

I may be the only one who heard this at the time, but Wahle didn't want to continue playing in Green Bay. Rivera, Green, Franks, Clifton, Favre, etc were not only more popular but were the face of the franchise the ones with marketing deals and the players promoted by the Packers. Wahle wanted a piece of that pie and apparently didn't feel it was offered and in his last season and a half here began looking elsewhere.

Guy was a mauler, behind the scenes, good player. Its been hashed, rehashed, re-rehashed, buried, ritually brought back from the grave, and then turned into hashish and smoked into thin air. That is what is left of the argument - thin air. Just like Walker or the FA FB's and TE's we didn't get this offseason or Moss or even Max in the offseason, if a guy doesn't want to come here or stay here there is really no way to make them.

quote:

Originally posted by phaedrus:
Unless it's definitive that Walker is a malcontent head-case, I certainly am open to the idea lukey is right about him.

I think he may be a special, special player.

I guess we'll see.

On Wahle? No. Better to have let him go and draft for his replacement.

I don't know if he was a head case but he was a malcontent. I don't think TT was ready to shell out a superstar contract to Walker after one season of production and coming off a knee injury. The more and more this rebuild progresses it's obvious the focus has been on defense.

quote:

Team needs

The team needs are as follows............

We have the players in camp that will make the 53 man roster that can get the job done (win the NFC North [Central])......

1) the offense needs to play ball control
- limit turnovers ( O would be nice, but unrealistic)
- no points to opposing teams while we're on "offense"
- Favre needs less than 15 int's
- move the chains, gain field position
- score td's when inside the 10 yard line
- score points when inside the 35 yard line

2) special teams
- help "D" and "O" with field position
- no turnovers
- no returns for td's while punting and KO's

3) defense
- we'll be just fine as long as the "O" doesn't put them in bad field positions and the "O" moves the chains once and awhile to spell the "D".
- make the opponents suffer long drives - no big plays 20+ yards...

I feel real good about this season.... "D" looks great and that's the foundation for a good season.... The "O" just needs to taks care of the ball, score when opportunity knocks, and mix it up...

IMO - the "O" with Favre has always looked good (better than normal) when they go quik or no huddle during the middle of the game... I wish they would do this about every 3rd or 4th series in every game...