The Budenholzer Doomsday Clock

No matter what happens, they won't make a move until after this season. That's especially true with Holiday being out.

Bud's just like McCarthy or Bo Ryan. They are great at creating a culture and a system where you consistently win more than you lose and you never really crater. But their strength is their weakness - the idea that you just keep doing what you are doing and just do it better to improve.

The bigger problem is the personnel. Here's the Bucks draft picks during the 9 years which is roughly the timeframe where your players would now be less than 30 years old. They hit one grand slam (Giannis), one home run (Brogdon), and otherwise have struck out (with the modest exception of DDV). I've only listed 2nd round picks in the top 40 overall.

2018 - 17th overall, DDV

2017- 17th overall, DJ Wilson

2016 - 10th overall, Thon Maker; 2nd round (36th) - Brogdon

2015 - 17th overall, Rashard Vaughn

2014- 2nd overall, Jabari Parker; 2nd round, 31st overall - Darren Inglis; 2nd round, 36th overall, Johnny O'Bryant

2013 - 15th overall, Giannis

2012 - 14h overall, John Henson

The Bucks are good because they drafted a generational talent 15th overall and a throw-in in a trade from 2013 (Middleton was filler in the Jennings/Knight trade) became a top 30 NBA player.

Brogdon and eventually got them at least a small portion of the assets (a first round pick) to do the Holiday trade. The other assets were basically 4 first-round picks (the one they gave up for Hill to Clevand and the three they traded with Hill and Bledsoe to the Pelicans). So, to simplify the Holiday trade, they gave up 5 first-round picks and 3 pick swaps for Holiday. As good as Holiday is, he's the result of giving up 5 picks and any chance of a low lottery pick for 8 years.

You don't expect every guy you trade in our near the lottery to be an NBA star, but they've gotten almost no contributions from any of their picks since 2013. this forced them to do the Holiday deal and left them with no real way to improve for the next 6 years.

So what do you do for the rest of the year? Do you just assume they'll be fine when Holiday comes back? They are 15-8 in the games Holiday has played.

Or do you shake up the roster somehow? In reality, that probably requires moving on from Lopez and he's the one guy other than DDV that might have some value to other teams.

I've attached the salary cap figures for players on their roster. They are hard capped and have no draft picks to sweeten any deals so they'd have to trade dollar for dollar. Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday are untouchable. I'd put Portis in that category as well based on his contract. For all we complain about Connaughton, his contract isn't a bad one at 5 million for his contributions.

Packaging Lopez and Augustin would get you almost 20 million for a trade, but would leave you with no post defense other than Giannis (Augustin is almost unplayable so he doesn't really matter). Wilson gets you another 4.5 million. Maybe somebody wants DDV bad enough to take on Augustin or Wilson with him? They just don't have a lot of options.

As you stated, they are a decent team when Holiday is available, and I don’t even think he’s played his best ball yet with the Bucks.  

Still, it’s fair to question both Lopez and DDV given how up and down they have both played.  

There are no trades... no one wants Lopez, at least for anything of value. DJW? DD? Maybe, but again, what do you get in return?

They’re going to have to play better. They’re not going to get it to a Championship level. They’ll play better with Holiday returning. This was a lost year the minute Brooklyn traded for Harden. If for no other reason than the NBA is going to want it. If the Bucks go juggernaut node and can’t be denied? Sure. The team as currently constructed/performing? The league wants the East versus West superstar showdown. It’s going to be Brooklyn vs the Lakers.

So at this point the Bucks need to pray Holiday is open to extending. He may not be... not now. If I was him, I’d be questioning everything knowing that this team may have already peaked. something to watch closely...

I saw a possible trade of Middleton, Lopez, and DJW to Golden State for Wiggins, Oubre Jr, Wiseman, and their 2021 1st rounder (from MN) and 2023 1st round pick.

As with all proposals, it’s probably 95% certain not to happen but I’ll be honest I’d take that deal in a NY minute.

Not thrilled about 3 more years of Wiggins,  but Wiseman is a star on the rise, Oubre is off the books after this season, and the 1st rounder from MN should be a high lottery pick for sure.

@Music City posted:

There are no trades... no one wants Lopez, at least for anything of value. DJW? DD? Maybe, but again, what do you get in return?

They’re going to have to play better. They’re not going to get it to a Championship level. They’ll play better with Holiday returning. This was a lost year the minute Brooklyn traded for Harden. If for no other reason than the NBA is going to want it. If the Bucks go juggernaut node and can’t be denied? Sure. The team as currently constructed/performing? The league wants the East versus West superstar showdown. It’s going to be Brooklyn vs the Lakers.

So at this point the Bucks need to pray Holiday is open to extending. He may not be... not now. If I was him, I’d be questioning everything knowing that this team may have already peaked. something to watch closely...

With Holiday, the Bucks are as equipped as anyone in the East to deal with the Nets in terms of their top 4 guys (the big 3 and DDV). If they get in a series with them, it will come down to how the games are officiated. All it will take is a couple of touch fouls on Holiday or Giannis early in the game and the Bucks will have very little chance of staying with them.

There may be no better defender ever to bother Durant than Giannis. Durant is the best shooting 7 footer ever, but Giannis will at least contest shots. Even if it's not Giannis, Durant is on record as saying Holiday is one of the best defenders he's ever played against. Middleton is not Giannis/Holiday level on defense, but he generally makes guys work for their shots against him. DDV is a decent option on Irving as well.

Unless the Nets decide to play D. Jordan extended minutes, Lopez can't be on the floor against the Nets. All three of their stars will just abuse him on switches (and you have to switch against the Nets). They'd have to play Portis and/or Craig because I think Augustin and Forbes can't be on the floor against the Nets either. You can't hide them on anyone.

@Tschmack posted:

I saw a possible trade of Middleton, Lopez, and DJW to Golden State for Wiggins, Oubre Jr, Wiseman, and their 2021 1st rounder (from MN) and 2023 1st round pick.

As with all proposals, it’s probably 95% certain not to happen but I’ll be honest I’d take that deal in a NY minute.

Not thrilled about 3 more years of Wiggins,  but Wiseman is a star on the rise, Oubre is off the books after this season, and the 1st rounder from MN should be a high lottery pick for sure.

If you are willing to give up for this year, you do this. Wiggins and Oubre are not guys you win with. The Wiggins contract is an albatross and he's in there to make the cap numbers work. You do it to get Wiseman and another lottery pick (MN pick) back. The Warriors pick is probably not going to be better than the mid-teens.

Wiseman and a top 5 pick for Middleton may look great in 3-4 years, but you would be just giving up 2-3 years of Giannis' prime to develop them.

I think Golden State would be nuts to give up Wiseman and Minnesota’s pick - which will most likely be top 5 in a very deep draft - for Middleton, Lopez and DJW.  Yes, Wiggins is a throw in to make the salaries work but another advantage is they get rid of Lopez and his next 2 years salary and also clear Oubre’s 15MM salary.  

Assuming Holiday resigns, you’d have him, Wiseman, Giannis, Wiggins and a stud young lottery pick choice - let’s say Cade Cunningham or Jalen Suggs.  Holy crap that’s a crazy good lineup even with Wiggins as their 5th option.   And recoup another 1st rounder in 2023.  

On the other hand, I also agree that the Bucks team with Giannis, Holiday, Middleton and to a lesser degree DDV is uniquely assembled to match up with the Nets.  They’d be even better if they dealt for PJ Tucker - although it might mean giving up DDV to do so.  

The problem I see is what has already been mentioned.  If they face Philly they need a big like Lopez but he will not see the floor against the Nets.  

I still think the Bucks best chance is to deal Lopez for another 3 and D guy.  Someone like a Jae Crowder.  Or PJ Tucker.  Or Norman Powell.  The issue is when Middleton exits they lack good options behind him other than Portis.  

@Tschmack posted:

I think Golden State would be nuts to give up Wiseman and Minnesota’s pick - which will most likely be top 5 in a very deep draft - for Middleton, Lopez and DJW.  Yes, Wiggins is a throw in to make the salaries work but another advantage is they get rid of Lopez and his next 2 years salary and also clear Oubre’s 15MM salary.  

Assuming Holiday resigns, you’d have him, Wiseman, Giannis, Wiggins and a stud young lottery pick choice - let’s say Cade Cunningham or Jalen Suggs.  Holy crap that’s a crazy good lineup even with Wiggins as their 5th option.   And recoup another 1st rounder in 2023.  

On the other hand, I also agree that the Bucks team with Giannis, Holiday, Middleton and to a lesser degree DDV is uniquely assembled to match up with the Nets.  They’d be even better if they dealt for PJ Tucker - although it might mean giving up DDV to do so.  

The problem I see is what has already been mentioned.  If they face Philly they need a big like Lopez but he will not see the floor against the Nets.  

I still think the Bucks best chance is to deal Lopez for another 3 and D guy.  Someone like a Jae Crowder.  Or PJ Tucker.  Or Norman Powell.  The issue is when Middleton exits they lack good options behind him other than Portis.  

I agree with Lopez vs. Embiid. Embiid is a matchup problem for most teams in the East. Lopez will be a 10-15 minute a night guy against most of the other teams in the East. Unless you are going to post up Lopez 5-6 times a quarter (and you aren't going to do that when he's your 4th best option), his size advantage doesn't get you anything because he's standing at the 3 point line and no threat to get an offensive rebound. He's a decent 3 point shooter, but at 35% for his Bucks' career teams will live with him shooting from there if it means limiting Middleton or Holiday from getting those shots. I think most teams will take the chance on Lopez going something like 6 for 14 from 3 to beat you.

The other problem the Nets have is that they have no one to matchup with Giannis. The Bucks almost beat them last month (albeit without Irving) on the road on a night that DDV, Augustin, and Forbes went 5 for 23 from the field and Jeff Green and Joe Harris went 9 for 12 from 3.

The Heat, Sixers, and Raptors are tougher matchups for the Bucks because they have defenders that can at least bother Giannis (Adebayo, Simmons, and Siakam/Anunoby).  The Bucks match up well with the Celtics and Nets because they don't have a guy to slow down Giannis.

I think you are making an even better case to trade Brook Lopez.   It would be one thing if he was playing like the 2019 version, but he’s not that guy right now.  His interior defense is negated by having to defend smaller, quicker bigs further away from the hoop.

The advantage this team has is Holiday is a ridiculously good defender that can D up against multiple positions.  Bledsoe was solid, but Holiday is on another level.  

If the Bucks could find a team that would take Lopez and DJW in a package that would be ideal.   The problem is if I’m another team I want a guy like DDV instead or as a sweetener because while he’s wildly inconsistent offensively, he’s a decent defensive guy with upside making 3MM a year.

A guy like PJ Tucker or Marcus Morris or would work but again, it would mean Milwaukee goes smaller in the front court but other than the Sixers I’m not sure that’s an issue.

Given how weak defensively Augustin and Forbes are I think it’s a problem to deal a guy like DDV because of his defense.  That’s the dilemma.  Craig can’t shoot, and DJ and Forbes can’t defend.  Pat C is a good Swiss Army knife guy but he needs to be playing 10-12 minutes a game.  Not 20 because they don’t have someone better than him that plays both ends of the court.

The biggest problem with DDV is that he struggles to finish shots near the rim by getting out of control and just throwing himself at the rim. When a guy like Holiday or Middleton misses a shot, they are usually in position to get back on defense. There are probably 3-4 times a game where DDV tries to finish at the rim and just ends up on the ground. Not only does he miss the shot, but he's not in position to get back on defense and it often ends with a wide-open 3 point shot for the opponent.

DDV is their second-worst rotation player shooting from inside the arc. Look at these numbers for 2-point FG%: Giannis (64%), Portis (58%), Lopez (58%), Holiday (57%), Middleton (55%), Connaughton (55%), Forbes (49%), Craig (47%), DDV (44%), Augustin (29%). 

Augustin has been putrid as soon as he's run off the 3 point line. DDV is obviously better than that, but as soon as either one attacks the rim and misses, they are out of position on the other end. A miss is like a 5 point swing very often.

Putting this here too. Since the 2019-20 resumed last summer the Bucks have played 52 regular season and playoff games.

They are 25-27.

I think he’s done. The message is weak, is lost on them, and i think you can look at what’s going on with the new players and see there’s something more to these struggles.

I think Portis isn’t happy that he’s relegated to the bench when Lopez clearly is way over his head with the changes. I think Augustine is frustrated by the lack of movement. I don’t think they’re drilled hard enough in practice. I think they’re waiting to flip some switch, but then they look at how they’re being coached they’re not understanding what they need to do to win. And there is no rhyme or reason to the lineups or the way they’re adjusting in games. I think that the new guys are starting to expose the lack of preparation they have.

Their undisciplined play on both ends is a coaching issue, not a player issue. And matchups that don’t work? How is it that teams make the Bucks pay every fucking time they’re in a mismatch, yet the Bucks get one and they look like they’ve never seen one before. You give LeBron a mismatch, it’s a bucket, free throws, or both. You give KD, Kawhi, Lillard, Curry, Harden... they know exactly what to do to exploit it. The Bucks? They only know one fucking thing... “let it fly!”

One minute to midnight. It’s almost over.

The only thing that I'll be fair to Budenholzer about, this roster isn't good enough to win a title no matter who the coach is.  That said, it's also clear that the very good job he did for 1 3/4 years is clearly in the rearview mirror and he isn't able to get these guys to play to their potential anymore.

I'll always have a fond spot in my heart for the turnaround they made in 2018-2019 to become a league power for a brief period.  That said, the more you watch them, the more you realize that they no longer are elite in any fashion despite having the most athletically gifted power forward to ever play the game.

The guys are not bringing it hard every night like they did for Bud's first 1 3/4 seasons.  It's pretty obvious the Bucks need someone with some new ideas.  Let's just hope that someone isn't another Kidd/Prunty type that is even more overmatched than Bud is.

I think it’s like everything in competition.  Your opponent will study your weaknesses and adjust.   It’s how you respond when you get punched in the mouth that matters.

MP2 made a valid point - since C19 took hold this is basically a .500 team.  Prior to that they were winning at almost a 70% clip.  Why?   Teams and opposing coaches have figured out Bud and his schemes and his tendencies.  And just like Mike McCarthy, he is unwilling or unable to adjust.  That’s the state of this team right now.  

This team has arguably 3 of the 50 best players in the league in Giannis and Middleton and Holiday.  Not many teams can’t run out a starting 3 like that.  Portis is a fantastic option off the bench.   However, they are limited with the rest of the roster. DDV and Lopez are extremely disappointing.  Augustin is playing awful.  Forbes is good at one thing - shooting the 3.  Craig is the polar opposite of Forbes.  Pat C is a high effort guy, but playing him 25 minutes a game?  Are you fucking kidding me?

That being said, the roster and talent is much better than the record.  They got outhustled and outworked by Toronto and I’m sorry that’s 90% preparation and coaching.  Bud is losing this team day by day.  I’ll be survived if he is back next year unless they make the Finals.  Right now I see more of the same - an early playoff exit.  

Say goodbye to the golden age of BB in Wisconsin for a while the way the Bucks and Badgers have fell.

Common theme - coaches?

Ummmm.

The golden age of Wisconsin hoops was the 70’s when the Bucks and the Warri....er Golden Eagles actually won championships.

Good times. As a kid, I thought championships would be a normal occurrence. Now I’m an old , bitter broken man. 😀

MU with Al and the guys were a force.  

I recall a SI cover, early 70’s stating that Milwaukee was Basketball Central (or something like that).

Dean the Dream was my fav back then.  Great in college and played a major role on a Knick championship team.

The 80s Bucks teams were also very good  7 straight division titles and 3 trips to the conference finals.  Just couldn’t get past Philly and Boston.   Not an easy task for any team back at that time.  I mean, think about it.  To win a title, you likely had to win 3 playoff series against Boston, Philly and LAL.   I’d argue that’s the most difficult path in NBA history.   In just about any other era, the Bucks probably would have won a title or at least got to the NBA Finals a couple of times.

Badgers hoops was irrelevant prior to Dick Bennett’s arrival.  

You never saw the Hughes twins!

@EC Pack posted:

Say goodbye to the golden age of BB in Wisconsin for a while the way the Bucks and Badgers have fell.

Common theme - coaches?

It's more acquisition of talent. I don't think anyone would say that Gard or Bud are great tacticians, but they aren't stiffs. This isn't Jason Kidd-level coaching malpractice in either case (order hour player to miss a FT up 3 to prevent a 4 point play from putting a game into OT).

The problem Gard has is that up until about 3 years ago, for about 15 years in a row, the Badgers had at least one and, oftentimes, multiple players that were good enough to play professionally somewhere. It wasn't always the NBA, but guys that have the athletic ability to be fringe NBA/G League roster guys or that can play in Europe make a big difference. These are obvious guys like Kaminsky, Dekker, Leuer, and Harris. But guys like Nigel Hayes, Alando Tucker, Bronson Koenig, Jordan Taylor, Mike Wilkinson, Stiemsma, Brian Butch, and a few others fit that description too.

This current group is a bunch of Josh Gasser/Zach Showalter/Bruesewitz types. They'd be great support guys for a team with a couple of Nigel Hayes or Jordan Taylor types.

@Tschmack posted:

The 80s Bucks teams were also very good  7 straight division titles and 3 trips to the conference finals.  Just couldn’t get past Philly and Boston.   Not an easy task for any team back at that time.  I mean, think about it.  To win a title, you likely had to win 3 playoff series against Boston, Philly and LAL.   I’d argue that’s the most difficult path in NBA history.   In just about any other era, the Bucks probably would have won a title or at least got to the NBA Finals a couple of times.

Badgers hoops was irrelevant prior to Dick Bennett’s arrival.  

The 2018-19 Bucks team will end being the most frustrating lost opportunity. They were up 2 games to none in the ECF and lost Game 3 in OT. The team that beat them won because they had a superstar one-year rental guy and a guard that started the series by going 2 for 11 from 3 (and 4 for 20 overall) in the first three games and then went 14 for 17 from 3 in the final 3 games.

At least the 80s Bucks teams got beat by teams with multiple HOFers that played together for the better part of the decade.

@fightphoe93 posted:

The only thing that I'll be fair to Budenholzer about, this roster isn't good enough to win a title no matter who the coach is.

I don’t agree with this. They have the 2-time MVP and 2 all stars. And when properly coached, a veteran bench should get you there. DJ Augustine isn’t the problem, it’s how he’s being used. Bobby Portis isn’t the problem, it’s how he’s being used.

People focus on the Warriors and Cavs in the mid-‘10s and point to the stars... and sure, yeah, they were great. But your stars don’t play a 3rd of the game, and they don’t play every position. So how did they win? How are they in the Finals?   The team knows how to play against your team’s strengths. Exploit weaknesses. Give you something you haven’t seen. The role players are clear in how they approach the game, d are put in position to be successful. When was the last time we saw the Bucks do something that made you think “oh, that’s really smart”? I can’t think of one.

I know they miss Holiday. They clearly have regressed to what they were before him since he went down. But it exposes something far bigger... Budenholzer can’t, or won’t adjust. It means the principals of his coaching have a weakness- and teams are exploiting it. Lots of comparisons to McCarthy. There’s a point where the limits have been reached. We’re there. Holiday will help them when he returns, but when it comes down to it, they’ll fuck up an inbounds looking for a game winner, or turnover in the worst moments, or Giannis will just try to bulldog the universe. And they fail. Again.

I didn’t see it going into this season. I like many thought Bledsoe’s limits were why. I don’t think so. They were part of it... but now after Bledsoe is traded away watching players not understand situational basketball and making the same mistakes, shooting the same dumb shots, allowing even more teams to rain threes, I think it’s the coach.

There’s no doubt that Bennett and Ryan were relentless and demanding SOBs as coaches.  Their attention to detail was Vince Lombardi like.  So you rarely saw those teams make mistakes and they were able to develop players to play above and beyond their natural talent and ability.  They also built a team culture based on repetition and execution that was almost impossible to replicate.

What you find though is the apple doesn’t always fall from the tree.  When leaders with that level of influence and credibility and impact leave, it often creates a vacuum and a standard that’s tough to follow.

That’s the issue with Gard.  He may be a Ryan disciple, but clearly he’s not the leader that Ryan was.  Very few would be.  And i think the game has evolved a bit to become more shooting and offense driven and not sure the program has adjusted as much.

Badgers football has survived mostly because they have adapted and made tweaks to stay current with what players want and what it takes to be successful.  Sure, they still want to pound you into submission and play stout defense, but they also know you have to feature a legit passing game and need to recruit decent skill players to do so.

The 2001 Big 3 Bucks team was a missed opportunity.  Not all that different from this years Packers team.  Had they both advanced I’m guessing it would have ended in a title.  The Bucks matched up well with the 2000 Lakers and this Packers team could have easily beaten a KC team that wasn’t 100%.

Looking back on the 2018-2019 Bucks team, I don’t feel exactly the same way but agree there’s no reason they shouldn’t have advanced.  Toronto got hot and quite frankly they wanted it more and Nurse coached circles around Bud.   That stings.

This team lacks confidence and swagger playing in key moments and you see that when the pace slows down or the score is close.  They get a case of the yips and start missing FTs or turn the ball over or rush their shots.  It’s been a consistent theme now.

There’s another thing to consider - look at how Eric Bledsoe and Malcolm Brogdon are playing.  Bledsoe is shooting 40% from 3. Brogdon is playing at an All Star level.

DJ Augustin has been a very good player in his career.   He’s almost unplayable now.  We are all lamenting about DDV.  

What gives?  The common denominator might be Bud

That’s what happens when you’re unprepared. That’s the value of your coach.

@Tschmack posted:

There’s another thing to consider - look at how Eric Bledsoe and Malcolm Brogdon are playing.  Bledsoe is shooting 40% from 3. Brogdon is playing at an All Star level.

The Bledsoe shooting % is a shocker. May be another indictment of “let it fly”, though come playoff time it might revert to the mean.

@Tschmack posted:

There’s another thing to consider - look at how Eric Bledsoe and Malcolm Brogdon are playing.  Bledsoe is shooting 40% from 3. Brogdon is playing at an All Star level.

DJ Augustin has been a very good player in his career.   He’s almost unplayable now.  We are all lamenting about DDV.  

What gives?  The common denominator might be Bud

The TNT crew (really Kenny Smith) made a point of showing the Bucks half-court sets last night at halftime. Smith made the comment that they weren't showing a freeze-frame. It just looked like it because when the ball got to Giannis no one else moved for 10 seconds. There were no back cuts, no flashing to the lane (or even faking a flash to the lane). The defense could just stand there too. There is also no chance for offensive rebounds, nothing. I bet there are times Brook Lopez goes half a quarter on the floor without moving more than 2 steps after they start an offensive set.

Even in a tiny high school when I played, the coaching principle was you have to move around on offense. Even if it's just to switch places or sides against a 2-3 zone, it makes the defense at least have to think and there's always a chance they'll make a mistake. You get bodies moving and lanes open up, guys lose sight of their guy, etc.

The frustrating thing is there was a stretch in the 4th quarter where they ran high post-pick-and-roll action with Middleton and Giannis and it looked unstoppable. Instead of using that more, they just revert back to Giannis getting the ball and having the 4 other guys stand still and counting on Giannis to make magic happen and for them to hit 3 pointers on kick outs.  If you have 4 Kyle Korvers surrounding him, it would look great. The adjustment that has happened to supplement the "Giannis wall" that teams have added is to just make sure Middleton doesn't get isos. The Raptors aggressively double-teamed him every touch and Bud's sets give him no real easy options on passes. Their offense is to let Giannis batter his way to the rim or iso Middleton in the halfcourt. Both are really good at what they do, but if the defense takes those away the Bucks have no other options with Holiday out. The third option is usually been to let Bledsoe/Holiday/Brogdon/Hill/Lopez back their guy down into the post and get a shot. Holiday is really good at that, but it would be nice to have more motion and scheme guys open rather than just rely on your player to beat another player one on one (it just like MM and his WR routes).

It's just like MM with Aaron Rodgers. It works a lot because Giannis is so good going to the basket, but as soon as you run into a team with a defender that you don't have to help too much out with on Giannis (Adebayo, Siakam, Ayton, Simmons, Kawhi, LeBron/AD), the whole thing falls apart and then you have guys who have been standing around on spots all game have to hit semi-contested 3 pointers. It's hard to get any rhythm when you are a spectator on offense for quarters at a time.

@Music City posted:

The Bledsoe shooting % is a shocker. May be another indictment of “let it fly”, though come playoff time it might revert to the mean.

The Pelicans chat sites (according to some reporters who follow them) are filled with people that can't wait to get rid of Bledsoe. The comments are basically that he'll look good for long stretches and then take a pullup 3 and clank it at the worst time or drive into the lane out of control and have a turnover at the worst time.

@Pikes Peak posted:

MU with Al and the guys were a force.  

I recall a SI cover, early 70’s stating that Milwaukee was Basketball Central (or something like that).

Dean the Dream was my fav back then.  Great in college and played a major role on a Knick championship team.

You thinking of this?

@Tschmack posted:

The 80s Bucks teams were also very good  7 straight division titles and 3 trips to the conference finals.  Just couldn’t get past Philly and Boston.   Not an easy task for any team back at that time.  I mean, think about it.  To win a title, you likely had to win 3 playoff series against Boston, Philly and LAL.   I’d argue that’s the most difficult path in NBA history.   In just about any other era, the Bucks probably would have won a title or at least got to the NBA Finals a couple of times.

Badgers hoops was irrelevant prior to Dick Bennett’s arrival.  

Soooo close....

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

It's just like MM with Aaron Rodgers. It works a lot because Giannis is so good going to the basket, but as soon as you run into a team with a defender that you don't have to help too much out with on Giannis (Adebayo, Siakam, Ayton, Simmons, Kawhi, LeBron/AD), the whole thing falls apart and then you have guys who have been standing around on spots all game have to hit semi-contested 3 pointers. It's hard to get any rhythm when you are a spectator on offense for quarters at a time.

100%. no movement, no consistency. The Warriors didn’t just hand the ball to Curry and Durant and say “create!” They created a system that flowed and moved and then plugged Durant into it seamlessly. The pre-Durant Warriors were absolutely the most beautiful basketball I’ve ever watched. Sure, you have two shooters that made it work, but when Livingston was in there he was effective. Bogut working high post, even though he wasn’t a shooter, was effective because he was so smart with the ball.

And there was also a commitment on the other end. Bucks are lacking both... and that’s on the coach.

@Tschmack posted:

The 80s Bucks teams were also very good  7 straight division titles and 3 trips to the conference finals.  Just couldn’t get past Philly and Boston.   Not an easy task for any team back at that time.  I mean, think about it.  To win a title, you likely had to win 3 playoff series against Boston, Philly and LAL.   I’d argue that’s the most difficult path in NBA history.   In just about any other era, the Bucks probably would have won a title or at least got to the NBA Finals a couple of times.

Badgers hoops was irrelevant prior to Dick Bennett’s arrival.  

The ‘87 fuck job against Boston in the ECF was akin to the ‘01 fuck job against Philly. Paul Pressey was torching the Celtics- they didn’t have an answer. In a period of about 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, he picked up 4 fouls. A double digit lead disappeared immediately. Bird gets to look like a superhero, but it was all because they got Pressey out of the game.

@Music City posted:

The ‘87 fuck job against Boston in the ECF was akin to the ‘01 fuck job against Philly. Paul Pressey was torching the Celtics- they didn’t have an answer. In a period of about 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, he picked up 4 fouls. A double digit lead disappeared immediately. Bird gets to look like a superhero, but it was all because they got Pressey out of the game.

We've talked about this game on the forum before.

This is a Youtube link to the game broadcast. Pressey fouls out with 2:30 left on a very questionable call. If you start the link at 1:32:25 you'll see the sequence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3oHKUkDulc

https://milwaukeerecord.com/sp...n-conference-finals/

With under three minutes to go and the Bucks still ahead 113-111 the referees called a sixth personal foul to disqualify Pressey for supposedly holding Bird in the paint away from the ball. Replays show incidental contact. The refs would immediately blow the whistle twice more for Larry the Legend and his six consecutive foul shots would invert the score to 113-117.

It was an obnoxious example of the NBA star system enforced by the referee’s whistle. But for the next decade and a half after that clear injustice in Boston, the Bucks weren’t ever good enough to find out if the refs would stop them again from advancing past a league-certified star.

@Blair Kiel posted:

You thinking of this?

No, I also looked thru the archives and could not find what I think I saw.  My 50 year old memory seems to have failed me.  Maybe it was Sport or Street and Smith.  Did they do regional covers way back then?  I don’t think that started till later.

Does this mean that certain other events in my life didn’t happen.  Such as the many happy endings that I now have to question.

Good article in The Ringer today with a big section on the Bucks. The take-home conclusions about the Bucks are that Lopez is basically washed up in terms of being even a serviceable, perimeter defender (loss of foot speed even from last year) and that they probably have to trade DDV to get anyone that can help this year.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/...-celtics-east-trades

It would be foolish to count out a team led by Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday. The East is wide open, and one or two tweaks could bolster the Bucks’ top-seven rotation enough to help them to the Finals. Still, the Bucks are 6-0 this season against the Cavaliers and Pistons—the two worst teams in the East—but only 12-13 against everyone else. Going back to March 2 last season, the day the Heat had a defining regular-season win over the Bucks, they’re only 27-26 including the playoffs. The evidence that good opponents have figured them out is getting harder and harder to ignore. Giannis is now signed through 2025, but this team cannot become complacent. Change is needed now.

The rumors are swirling out there about PJ Tucker. A DDV and DJW trade would work. I’d hate to lose DDVs defense, but Tucker is a better 3pt shooter and more importantly he can defend multiple positions.  He would also improve their second unit (bench) both offensively and defensively.

It means that Forbes would likely start and defensively he’s a step down from DDV, but as we’ve seen you can’t play Augustin and Forbes at the same time and stop anyone.  Tucker can score and defend so that combination could work.  

Houston may also be in the market for a center now that they’ve released Boogie Cousins.   Christian Wood is their #1 option, but Lopez would a decent backup or potential starter if Wood can’t go.