The Greatest PF of All Time

Music City posted:

So says Charles and Shaq. 

Can't disagree. The all-time starting 5 is Magic, Michael, Larry, Duncan, and Hakeem. 

Completely agree with 3 of the 5.

Lebron vs. Larry is a discussion at this point. They both have 3 rings but you could argue Bird had much better teammates overall.

I'll still take Kareem hands down over Hakeem. As I've said in other threads, I think Kareem does not get enough credit for what he did.

Oh yeah, I know... the LeBron/Larry issue is what it is. I value basketball IQ a lot more than most- LeBron is no dummy, but Larry was the smartest basketball player I have ever watched. For the better part of 6-7 years, he was the best basketball player on the planet during the rise of the league. He's in many ways a founding father of modern basketball.

LeBron, Kobe, Kareem, The Mailman, and Oscar are the next 5 to me. 

I agree on Bird's IQ. Those mid-80s Celtics and Celtics teams were off the charts in terms of basketball IQ. Bird, McHale, Dennis Johnson, Ainge, Walton, Sichting for the Celtics (I'm not sure about Parish's baskeball IQ). Magic, Kareem, Michael Cooper, James Worthy, Byron Scott, Mitch Kupchak for the Lakers. A lot of coaches and GMs came out of those teams.

It's hard for me to separate the fact that Bird played with McHale and Parish (and the others) relative to Lebron (who's only superstar teammate was Wade - maybe Kyrie Irving at least on offense). McHale is probably vastly underrated also given that he was great defensive player and one of the top 5 or so post-up players in history. The stuff that he and Hakeem did to defensive players on the block was fun to watch.

It's tough to project some players across decades and generations but i think Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem, and the Big O are there.  I would not put any modern day player - Lebron, Kobe, KG, Shaquille, Duncan in those discussions.  Why?  League expansion diluted the talent. Rule changes made it easier to play and feature offense.  

The freakish size and athleticism nature of the modern day player - Garnett,  McGrady, Shaq, LeBron, Durant, etc would have gotten their asses kicked by the old school enforcers who would have beaten them up physically.   The Pacers and Knicks of the 90s were the last teams to do so. 

Shaq could have played in any era. He played against some of the best big man (true C), and held his own. Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson... all in their primes. But Hakeem's greatness was on display when they met in the finals- Hakeem destroyed Shaq. And did the same to Ewing the year before. He did not win a Championship until those guys were all retired and he has Kobe. 

Kobe is an all timer, hands down. The only comparable player to MJ. LeBron is also an all timer, but I do not see him in the same light as Larry and Magic and them.

And contrary to popular opinion, I do not see Bill Russell as a top 5 all time player. He's an all time great, and is a league founding father, but his performances and Championships came at a time where the league was in a fledgling stage. He's the equivalent to someone like, say Don Hutson. Intangibles and talent for his time off the charts- but for his time is a big asterisk. 

Great post, Music.

How about another discussion related to this, specifically on the top 5 defensive players of all time.

I've attached a list of the top defensive win share career leaders as per basketball.reference.com. The formula heavily weights towards big guys, but it does indicate the effect Bill Russell had during his era.

I'd go with Russell, Duncan, and Pippen (who I think was one of the best on ball defenders I've ever seen - could guard any  position from 1-4). I'm not sure how to evaluate guards on defense other than an eye test - probably go with Jordan as one of them. The somewhat surprising thing is how high Jason Kidd is on this list.

Shaq is one of my favorite players but he benefitted greatly based on his size and strength advantages. He was not a technically or fundamentally sound player.  When he faced those guys- like Hakeem or even Sabonis- he struggled somewhat.  He's an all time great but not as good as a guy like Kareem or Wilt. 

It's tough to say that a guy with 4 rings and 2 other Finals appearances underachieved, but it's close with Shaq. He was so physically gifted that he didn't have to work hard when he was younger on fundamentals. And then he just didn't give a sh!t sometimes, like the one year he waited until September (and training camp) to have toe surgery instead of having it earlier in the summer because he didn't want to recover during his offseason.  He was obviously a terrible free throw shooter and didn't put in a lot of effort to stay in shape. He was basically done as a dominant player after the age of 32.

That list is f'ed... love Stockton as an all around player, but he and MJ next to each other? And Nowitzki even on the list??? 'Ol Dirk is known for a lot of things, but defensive win shares? Lol!!! 

Yeah, a little skewed to big men I'd say. 

That list is crazy. For example, the only times prior to seeing this that I'd seen the words "Elvin Hayes" and "defense" in the same phrase had to do with how he didn't play it (based on my own observations, on the D end he'd rebound, yes, defend, only marginally).

While it is true Bird had a much better cast than Lebron, the quality of the top teams was also much greater (Lakers, Sixers as well as Bucks and Spurs).

My issue with Lebron is I think he has come up small at a fairly high clip in huge moments.  Not all the time, but enough times.  This past Game 7, I think he had 2 FT's in the final 4.5 minutes.  No field goals.

Those are the moments Bird generally shown.

On the defensive players list.  Appreciating he may have been left out supposing some level of offensive ability was also required, what about Rodman?  And if defensive rebounding can be included as part of defensive play?

He belongs.

I have hard time bestowing any mantle of greatness on a guy that had that many issues. Great defender, great rebounder... Not a great player. 

I agree with Music on Rodman. It was basically like playing 4 on 5 on offense when he was in the game. His only offensive contribution was that he was a great offensive rebounder - 5th in total offensive rebounds all time. But the 49% FG shooting in his career (for a guy who hardly took any shots outside of 5 feet)  knock him out of the conversation as a top all-time PF. 

Just to be clear, my mention of Rodman was to his quality of play as a defensive player, including defensive rebounds and I even suggested he may not make consideration because some threshold ability offensively might also be required.

Jerry Lucas ???

I think Garnett, McHale, Webber... these guys deserve mention.