The NBA Finals: Heat versus The Most Hateable Team in NBA History

LeBron's a great player, but it makes it a lot easier when you can have your agents pick which future HOFers you want to play with whenever you decide to switch teams. 

Anthony Davis is probably the best player in the NBA right now. Giannis is the MVP because he plays hard every night. Davis has almost everything Giannis has skillwise and he can shoot. 

LeBron got Davis to quit on NO and demand a trade to the Lakers. 

He got Bosh to go with him to Miami 10 years ago. 

He didn't really go back to Cleveland to "go home." He went back because he had arranged for Kevin Love to go there and Kyrie Irving to stay. 

Dragic out for the rest of the series with a serious foot injury. 

Adebayo also banged up. 

Tyler Herro was -35 in 30 minutes. 

Herro and Robinson trying to guard LeBron on switches was beyond comedic. 

If Dragic is out, the Lakers will win every game by 20-25 points. 

Some thoughts ending with how this pertains to the Bucks.

Before Game 1, I saw a lot of people trying to compare the 2020 Heat to the 2004 Pistons. Even with Dragic that was a stretch.  I guess the main comparison is that the 2004 Pistons are the only team in recent NBA history (maybe ever) that won a title without a Hall of Fame player (or a future first-ballot HOFer).  However, Rasheed Wallace had Hall of Fame talent, with some exceptions like that playoff run, he just coasted his whole career. 

Is Jimmy Butler a Hall of Famer? I'd say no. How did the Heat beat the Bucks and Celtics? Because Spoelstra badly outcoached both Bud and Stevens. The Lakers just absolutely punished Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson on switches. Herro finally looked like a guy who was just out of high school trying to guard grown men. The Heat might be the least talented Finals team in a while, but Spoelstra deserves a lot of credit for getting them there. He adapted his defensive schemes to choke the offensive life out of the Bucks (Bud essentially never strayed from "pound that wall with Giannis") and the Celtics (Brad Stevens never really came up with a plan to beat the Heat zone). 

The Lakers have two first ballot HOFers and many of their players just coasted through the regular season, and the long layoff really helped some of their older players (LeBron, Howard, and Rondo). 

Lebron is now firmly in the top 5 ever (I think only Jordan and Kareem are clearly superior). Anthony Davis is Giannis with a jump shot. Dwight Howard is a role player, but I think people sometimes forget how good he was a decade ago. basketballreference.com lists him as having a 99.4% chance of being a Hall of Famer.  Rondo is listed as having a 40% chance of getting in. I don't think he has a shot in hell, but he's another guy that basically coasts until he thinks it matters. 

I don't know what message the Bucks will take from this. The real message is that what wins 60-65 regular season games is a deep rotation and what wins playoff games is usually having the best top 2-3 players. Or maybe the real message is that Anthony Davis is on a whole other level than Giannis. I love Giannis, but any objective person would come to that conclusion watching the playoffs. 

I just cannot stand watching him play. He represents the worst sort of basketball stardom. Entitled, disingenuous... it’s not basketball. It’s kabuki theatre, and it’s pathetic. 

And listening to commentary about his greatness, knowing that his minions are on the trigger ready to pounce with the slightest detour from “Lebron is the GOAT” narrative... it is just nauseating. 

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

I don't know what message the Bucks will take from this. The real message is that what wins 60-65 regular season games is a deep rotation and what wins playoff games is usually having the best top 2-3 players. Or maybe the real message is that Anthony Davis is on a whole other level than Giannis. I love Giannis, but any objective person would come to that conclusion watching the playoffs. 

Let’s not get too deep into the “Giannis isn't as good as AD” narrative. Giannis is not Anthony Davis. They’re different players with different paths with different mental makeups.

Giannis is an alpha. Davis clearly is not. Davis had 7 years to make the Pelicans good- and didn’t. He’s a second fiddle benefiting from the presence of another All Time player. Think Giannis wouldn’t benefit from having Lebron James as a teammate? 

While Davis failed to make the Pelicans a winner, Giannis made the Bucks a perennial contender from a 15-67 team. Giannis’ game isn’t complete- Davis’ is. So be it. But you put Davis on the Bucks instead of Giannis? I don’t believe for one fuckin second the Bucks become a contender. Davis couldn’t bear the burden of a franchise... if he could, he would have in New Orleans. 

@Music City posted:

Let’s not get too deep into the “Giannis isn't as good as AD” narrative. Giannis is not Anthony Davis. They’re different players with different paths with different mental makeups.

Giannis is an alpha. Davis clearly is not. Davis had 7 years to make the Pelicans good- and didn’t. He’s a second fiddle benefiting from the presence of another All Time player. Think Giannis wouldn’t benefit from having Lebron James as a teammate? 

While Davis failed to make the Pelicans a winner, Giannis made the Bucks a perennial contender from a 15-67 team. Giannis’ game isn’t complete- Davis’ is. So be it. But you put Davis on the Bucks instead of Giannis? I don’t believe for one fuckin second the Bucks become a contender. Davis couldn’t bear the burden of a franchise... if he could, he would have in New Orleans. 

I'm not a fan of AD. He quit on a team and went through the motions for most of last year. He's as much what's wrong with the NBA as whatever team Klutch Sports puts together for LeBron every year. 

But, when Davis actually shows up and plays he's a better player than Giannis. He finished second in the DPOY to Giannis so there's not a huge difference there. He's a much better jump shooter and is a great FT shooter. That game winning 3 pointer at the buzzer against the Nuggets is something that Giannis can't do. 

I'd much rather root for Giannis than Davis. Giannis shows up every night and doesn't quit on his team to take the easy way to a ring (at least not yet). But at this point (and Giannis is only 2 years younger) when Davis decides its worth his effort, he's a better all-around player. 

“Better player” needs to be defined. I don’t think AD is a “better player” than Giannis for the reasons I have stated. Davis looks great and has a nice overall game. Trade him one for one? Never. Hey, he hit a game winning 3. Great. Middleton hit a half court 3 with a second left in a playoff game to send the game to overtime. John Wall won a playoff series with a game winning 3. Davis made a great play. It doesn’t make him better. 

Davis does not have the mental makeup of a “franchise player” like Giannis. Davis is mentally weak. Make him your franchise player and watch him wilt like a flower in the desert. He’s a great second fiddle. I take Giannis 10 times out of 10. 

While I respect their game and talent, it’s hard to root for guys like Durant and AD and Kahwi and PG13 and Kyrie and LeBron and even Jimmy Butler.  They all basically took the easy way out and forced moves instead of buckling down and trying to win with their original teams.   That’s why guys like Dame and Giannis (assuming he stays) deserve a lot of credit.  It’s OK if you move as a player, but it’s something entirely different if you quit on your team or basically pull a Jimmy Butler or Kyrie and just cause drama and kill team chemistry. 

I mean, last year everyone admired Kahwi despite the BS he pulled in San Antonio.  This year it’s AD and Butler.  He quit on the Pelicans and pouted his way to get what he wanted.  Butler was just an asshole in Minnesota and then Philly and no that’s not just him claiming to want it more or play harder than the rest. 

Count me in on rooting against LeBron and the Lakers.

Up until 2010, I was a huge LeBron backer. Since that time he’s revealed himself to be an entitled whiny bitch.  I grudgingly admit, he may be the most talented player I’ve ever watched, but his antics over the years make me want to give Jordan the GOAT title (I never saw Wilt).

If Lebron and Jordan played 101 times, I might give the nod to Jordan to beat Lebron 51-50 because Jordan was one of the most tireless insane competitors who have ever lived.  Jordan had character flaws but he came up the hard way and never took shortcuts like Lebron.

Lebron is more naturally gifted than MJ, but Jordan perfected the mid range game like nobody ever has.  Lebron was more physically gifted but Jordan was more skilled and his force of will was stronger than Lebron.

Anyways, I really can’t stand LeBron and I truly hope that if he gets this year’s ring that it is his last.

@fightphoe93 posted:

Up until 2010, I was a huge LeBron backer. Since that time he’s revealed himself to be an entitled whiny bitch.  I grudgingly admit, he may be the most talented player I’ve ever watched, but his antics over the years make me want to give Jordan the GOAT title (I never saw Wilt).

Lebron is more naturally gifted than MJ, but Jordan perfected the mid range game like nobody ever has.  Lebron was more physically gifted but Jordan was more skilled and his force of will was stronger than Lebron.

Can’t be the 🐐 if you quit. He's quit more than once. And I think people underestimate just how physically gifted Jordan was. He’s right there with Lebron. Sure Lebron is a bigger, thicker man... but Jordan played in an era where you could grab and push and body, and that never slowed him down. Lebron has faked contact, injuries, constantly screams at officials... Jordan’s mental advantage did not underpin his physical talent, and through it all always was smarter than his opponent.

And if they ever played 1-on-1 a 1000 times Jordan would win every game. He would have won before he ever set foot on the floor...

The Heat minus Dragic really exposed last night. Nunn is hurting them.  

@Music City posted:

The Heat minus Dragic really exposed last night. Nunn is hurting them.  

He's the equivalent of Eric Bledsoe on offense without the defensive ability to offset it. 

Also, having to play Herro in a starter's role really hurts them as well. I have a colleague who went to Kentucky and is a huge fan who commented that how can they expect him to guard anybody in the NBA when he never really tried to guard anybody in college. 

Herro has never had to. But he’s also 20 years old... being a predominantly offensive player his whole life, he’s of course behind the curve to NBA standards. That said, his basketball 🏀 IQ does bode well for him being a savvy defender as he develops. Plus he’s rail thin... needs to put on some muscle to get up to NBA standards. 

The Dragon is a really underrated player and they certainly miss him.  He’s sneaky good and when he gets rolling it’s tough to stop him. He reminds me a lot of Kyle Lowry just bigger.   I’d love to figure out a way to get him on this Bucks team.

@Music City posted:

Can’t be the 🐐 if you quit. He's quit more than once. And I think people underestimate just how physically gifted Jordan was. He’s right there with Lebron. Sure Lebron is a bigger, thicker man... but Jordan played in an era where you could grab and push and body, and that never slowed him down. Lebron has faked contact, injuries, constantly screams at officials... Jordan’s mental advantage did not underpin his physical talent, and through it all always was smarter than his opponent.

And if they ever played 1-on-1 a 1000 times Jordan would win every game. He would have won before he ever set foot on the floor...

I guess I'm approaching old age, because, like you, I am incredulous that anyone, ever, would question Jordan's athleticism compared to anyone.  The younger Jordan would jump over guys. I watched a lot of Jordan's games and some of his best dunks were ones were ones where he'd break lose with a steal, be ahead of everyone, and purposely slow down a little just so he could dunk on guys (there were some classic ones against Bill Laimbeer that were like this).

I think anyone that ever thinks that any player was significantly more athletic than Jordan should watch highlights of the 63 point game against the Celtics in 1986.  That Celtics team had one of the best defensive guards in history (Dennis Johnson) and some of the best rim protectors in history close to their prime (McHale and Parish) and they could not guard him despite the fact that other than Charles Oakley, he was playing with guys that were G-league level talent. Larry Bird, who was also pathologically competitive and didn't give an inch to anyone, literally said it was like playing Jesus after that game. I've included a link to the highlights. Not only was he dominant on offense he had emphatic blocks of both Parish and McHale near the rim in this game as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0ZS8HWw5A

I think Jordan has the same problem as Kareem. Most younger people remember Jordan as the fade-away baseline jumper guy in his 30s and not the guy who would absolutely destroy guys at the rim. Most people remember Kareem as the 40 year old guy jogging up and down the court shooting sky hooks and not the guy running the floor in his early years with the Bucks.

I don't mind Lebron at all.  I do think he's obsessed with trying to be the best ever (which can be annoying).  I like to look at how a superstar gets along with his teammates.  Lebron's teammates always appear to get along with him and he obviously gets them motivated, often overachieving.  As to flopping, I think Jimmy Butler's head fake when he drives the land is as egregious as they come....big time flopper.

I didn't mind LeBron when he was younger but something about him as he has gotten older has made him kind of unlikable.  Crusher, maybe it is what you said and that he is totally obsessed with being the best ever.  But, I will say I do find his flopping and griping quite irritating at times. 

I for one don't understand the obsession with who is the GOAT LeBron or Jordan.  Why can't we just appreciate they both were two of the best ever?  If I had to chose it would be Jordan and it wouldn't be even close to for me.

I'm just the opposite. I thought LeBron was annoying when he was younger.

Not sure anyone had better competitive spirit than MJ.  He didn’t want to just beat you.  He wanted to humiliate you.  

I don’t see LeBron in the same light.  He’s not that guy.  Much like Durant he’s not an alpha dog.  Kobe Bryant was.  Kevin Garnett was.  Gary Payton was.  

Butler with an epic game 5 to stay alive. Dude balls-out....

I'm sure the league liked the Lakers and LeBron winning, but it was a letdown for many long-term fans like me that are more than just casual fans.

The Lakers won with a team in which almost all the main guys have been Lakers for two years or less and played most of their careers with other teams. Only two players (Kuzma and Caruso) have been with them for more than 2 years.

The lack of guys staying with teams long-term is going to hurt the NBA eventually outside of the LA/Boston/Miami/Texas/NYC markets (if Dolan ever gets out the Knicks will become a top destination).

The other thing that bugs me is that arguably their third-best player in the series is a guy that could have been a Hall of Fame player if he'd have not loafed through about 6 regular seasons worth of play. In fact, Rondo's HOF chances according to basketballreference.com are now over 60%. They were 40% before this ring.

Dwight Howard gets a ring too.  It's not fair to say he backed into this one because he did contribute as a role player, but the fact they benched him in the clincher says a lot. His Hall of Fame odds are now at 99.7%.

I didn't watch 1 minute of the finals. BORING...

If Giannis leaves Milwaukee, I'll be done with the NBA.....and he's going to leave

@Boris posted:

I didn't watch 1 minute of the finals. BORING...

If Giannis leaves Milwaukee, I'll be done with the NBA.....and he's going to leave

If he leaves I doubt I'll give it up completely, but I'll become a person who casually watches a few games a year rather than someone who keeps track of it in detail.

They have to find a way to keep the small and mid-market teams competitive. Otherwise, it's just the Lakers, Clippers, Heat, Nets, Knicks (when Dolan sells), Sixers, Celtics, Rockets, Warriors, and Mavs that have a real chance year after year and then a bunch of Triple A-like farm teams. It's already like this. You'll have a few teams every so often that luck into a superstar talent and have a small window towards the end of that player's first or second contract (Giannis, Durant/Westbrook/Harden, Kawhi with the Spurs, etc.), but by the time that player figures out what he needs to do to win in the playoffs it's time for them to take off for the big markets. Even when a guy would like to stay, the NBA leadership, the TV networks, and the shoe companies are behind the scenes pushing the guy towards a place that can maximize their profits.

The one place the NFL handled things much better than the NBA is the franchise tag or some way to keep the stars on their original teams. They tried with the SuperMax, but it just isn't working. The NBA players association is too strong to let that happen. It's great for the superstar players, but bad for the league.

The SuperMax was a really good idea but the players figured out their ability to move and move often is more important.  

The single best thing the NBA could so is get rid of the one and done rule.