TheRinger - long article on Packers' struggles

Disagree with his pretty dire assessment of the offensive personnel.

From the article about the D:

This is an unacceptably passive, straightforward, and predictable way to play defense. Opposing offenses know what they’re getting from the Packers, and that makes execution easier. Their weak points (defensive tackles not named Kenny Clark; Gary in run defense; Walker in zone conflict) are easier to exploit when they are never relocated or concealed in any way. The Packers are static, and their talented unit underperforms accordingly.

What’s the solution here? The solution is to grow up. Get creative. Assume the other team also has talent and realize that you have to adjust, week to week, half to half, drive to drive if you want to survive in the NFL. Staley’s Rams played tons of quarter-quarter-half to change up zone coverage tendencies and get a safety dropping on the ever-dangerous crossing route—the Packers aren’t doing that. Other Fangio-inspired teams, like the Eagles under Jonathan Gannon, are dropping one of their outside linebackers in their bear fronts to create confusion—the Packers aren’t doing that. The Broncos under Ejiro Evero are gaming the front—the Packers aren’t.

I’m just gonna mumble “Joe Barry is a dipshit” every 5 minutes wherever I  go to see if the saying catches on.

It literally seems as if you could send out the best 11 defenders and tell them to “Do what you do.” and get better results.

Completely agree with his assessment that the defense is both passive and predictable.

Found on the internet:

What Davante Adams did was hide a problem that came up in the playoff game against San Fran. San Fran's staff noticed if you take Adams out of the game and force the Packers to run the ball they wouldn't have the patience to do that. They also noticed that Rodgers wants to play hero ball and isn't patient enough to stick to the game plan.

It is clear that the Packers steep investment in defense has produced only mediocre results to date. We'll see if they snap back against a Jets team that is getting better by the week.

@michiganjoe posted:

Disagree with his pretty dire assessment of the offensive personnel.

Why? It’s spot-on.

@YATittle posted:

Found on the internet:

What Davante Adams did was hide a problem that came up in the playoff game against San Fran. San Fran's staff noticed if you take Adams out of the game and force the Packers to run the ball they wouldn't have the patience to do that. They also noticed that Rodgers wants to play hero ball and isn't patient enough to stick to the game plan.

It is clear that the Packers steep investment in defense has produced only mediocre results to date. We'll see if they snap back against a Jets team that is getting better by the week.

I agree. The question is whether it's MLF calling high-risk plays or Rodgers going impatient. I just don't think Rodgers has the mentality to stick to a game plan; he's got to show just how smerter he is than everyone else. I'd like to see MLF say, "You can change the run/pass option five times per game. Pick your spots carefully." or something like that to force Rodgers to execute the called plays. It seems he does it in the first half but doesn't in the second half.

So depressing. I almost didn't want to continue reading.

It almost seems that Barry thinks the talent he has on D and will rise up and make plays regardless with the current scheme which hasn't obviously been the case.

What resonated with me on the offensive assessment is how similar this season has resembled McCarthy's last year. Anything downfield seems like desperation. Back then we thought it was scheme, now it's the players?? Both?

The nice thing about the perceived lack of offensive talent is that, in some ways, it's potentially fixable with a guy they drafted this year. The first offensive play of the year showed that. The problem is that Watson can't stay healthy enough to get on the field.

Christian Watson runs a 4.36 40. MVS ran a 4.37. It's not like MVS did much other than run go routes, and he dropped what seemed like a third of those. However, just that threat was enough to back the safeties off and open up the underneath stuff. Watson should be able to do that.

The frustrating part is that Joe Barry's scheme almost operated from the assumption that every opposing WR is like Tyreke Hill and is a threat to beat you deep on every passing play, so you scheme to prevent that.

Stokes ran a 4.25. Jaire ran a 4.38. Savage ran a 4.36. Amos ran a 4.39.

Even at LB, Campbell was a 4.48 guy. Quay Walker is a 4.52.

They prioritized getting speed at those positions by using 4 first round picks and signing two free agents to decent contracts. And then they play the type of defense Wisconsin has to play against Ohio State because they'll get run every play if they don't.

Barry's scheme doesn't fit with their draft strategy at all. You draft a bunch of thoroughbreds and use a scheme designed for Clydesdales.

@Fandame posted:

I agree. The question is whether it's MLF calling high-risk plays or Rodgers going impatient. I just don't think Rodgers has the mentality to stick to a game plan; he's got to show just how smerter he is than everyone else. I'd like to see MLF say, "You can change the run/pass option five times per game. Pick your spots carefully." or something like that to force Rodgers to execute the called plays. It seems he does it in the first half but doesn't in the second half.

If they RPO is predicated on running the ball if there are 6 guys in the box and passing if they are 7, doesn't the defense then get to dictate what the play will be run? I'm sure that's why Rodgers waits until the last second to snap the ball (so he can read that). But the way to beat that is to stack the box and devise a scheme to then drop those guys off at the snap. You compound that with the fact that the Packers have no one to beat you deep and it seems pretty low risk to stack the box and take Aaron Jones and Dillon away. I guess the way to combat it is to stick with the run even if it looks like they've stacked the LOS?

I surely think on those plays near the goal line that stacked box or no stacked box Dillon would have had the first down and possibly scored. He got two yards on his worst run of the day. He is a Beast.

Use him.

@MichiganPacker posted:

The nice thing about the perceived lack of offensive talent is that, in some ways, it's potentially fixable with a guy they drafted this year. The first offensive play of the year showed that. The problem is that Watson can't stay healthy enough to get on the field.

Christian Watson runs a 4.36 40. MVS ran a 4.37. It's not like MVS did much other than run go routes, and he dropped what seemed like a third of those. However, just that threat was enough to back the safeties off and open up the underneath stuff. Watson should be able to do that.

Setting aside they have a guy who's less healthy and even worse hands than MVS thus far, there's also no Adams - a guy you can scheme open enough and he will make the play - when you're behind the sticks they can count on. They don't have a Gronk or Kelce to be that guy when they don't have a wide receiver to be that guy either. It's more "we do what we do" without the horses to actually do what they want to do.

Add in the fact the tackles are struggling to get healthy and the Center is average, they can't cover having a turnstile  at RG either.

@Herschel posted:

Why? It’s spot-on.

Because I don't think the offensive personnel are a major issue. Disagree completely with his point that insufficient talent at wideout is a big part of the present struggles.

Certainly more talent at WR wouldn't hurt, but injuries and inexperience have played a larger role. Offensive coaching and the play of the QB have been much bigger factors in the struggles, IMO.

How is it not a major issue? I love Cobb as y has anyone, but he’s not the Cobb of five years ago.. Lazard = JAG.Rodgers is not even a JAG. Watson isn’t healthy or reliable. Doubs shows signs of being solid, but he’s nowhere near there yet. DeGuara = JAG, Tonyan = JAG at this point, Lewis is a good blocker but no wheels, there’s just nothing there.

@MichiganPacker posted:

If they RPO is predicated on running the ball if there are 6 guys in the box and passing if they are 7, doesn't the defense then get to dictate what the play will be run? I'm sure that's why Rodgers waits until the last second to snap the ball (so he can read that). But the way to beat that is to stack the box and devise a scheme to then drop those guys off at the snap. You compound that with the fact that the Packers have no one to beat you deep and it seems pretty low risk to stack the box and take Aaron Jones and Dillon away. I guess the way to combat it is to stick with the run even if it looks like they've stacked the LOS?

Going into the Giants game Jones was the only RB in the NFL who had not had even one carry vs. an 8 man box! That tells us one of two things 1) We didn't see any, or very few 8 man boxes. 2) Every time the  defense is showing 8 man box, AR audibles to a pass. It looked to me that the Giants were really the first team to load the box a lot and we didn't look like we were completely comfortable in our preparation for it. Another rather unique thing they did with that is that they used DBs instead of LBers, so when they showed it (to get us to pass), they had their coverage group in. As you said, their DC dictated.... brilliant game plan.

Here is the article author on Herman's podcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z56q1mVwbPw

He tells Herman that AR will figure it out and the offense will be fine so apparently talent isn't that big of an issue. If his point was the loss of Adams would create an adjustment period that could be difficult that strikes me as pretty obvious and expected from most fans and the organization.

@FLPACKER posted:

Going into the Giants game Jones was the only RB in the NFL who had not had even one carry vs. an 8 man box! That tells us one of two things 1) We didn't see any, or very few 8 man boxes. 2) Every time the  defense is showing 8 man box, AR audibles to a pass. It looked to me that the Giants were really the first team to load the box a lot and we didn't look like we were completely comfortable in our preparation for it. Another rather unique thing they did with that is that they used DBs instead of LBers, so when they showed it (to get us to pass), they had their coverage group in. As you said, their DC dictated.... brilliant game plan.

Outstanding post. I thought the same thing at the time when announcers were remarking on it. The kind of creative D thinking we don't get from Loser Barry.

@michiganjoe posted:

Because I don't think the offensive personnel are a major issue. Disagree completely with his point that insufficient talent at wideout is a big part of the present struggles.

Certainly more talent at WR wouldn't hurt, but injuries and inexperience have played a larger role. Offensive coaching and the play of the QB have been much bigger factors in the struggles, IMO.

I think what we have right now is a perfect storm on the offensive side of the ball.  You have injuries and inexperience at the WR position, a TE who is still making his way back from injury, a coaching staff that abandons the run way too quickly, and insists on trying to hit long passes when it clearly isn't working.  And  a QB who either isn't playing well or is dealing with the consequences of the things I mentioned above.  My hope is that they get that side of the ball fixed before its too late.

Defensively? that is where I am (as usual) more pissed about.  I think there is a perfect storm on that side of the ball as well.  You have all of those high draft picks and nice FA pickups on that side of the ball and the same damn issues continue year after year.  With all of that talent I have to lean towards it being a scheme/coaching issue.  They cannot stop crossing routes in the passing game and we all know about the rush defense.  That to me is coaching when players seem lost and are playing SOFT.

good read, only things I disagreed with were :

"Dillon was always going to have difficulty providing value while backing up Aaron Jones, but the offensive staff carved out a substantial role for him this year, and he’s failed to deliver in it."

and..

"Rodgers doesn’t deserve to be minimized! He isn’t the problem."

@YATittle posted:

They also noticed that Rodgers wants to play hero ball and isn't patient enough to stick to the game plan.

I heard some interesting praise of Tom Brady in light of this comment - Brady never gets bored taking his first read.  Brady will dump it off to a RB in the flat and take the 6 yards every time on first down.  And as weird as it is, taking the easy pass has led to so much of his success. 

Compare that with other QBs who will eventually pass on that first, easy read to see if something bigger opens up.  Sounds like Rodgers does that too much.