Winter wish list for Packers

I like the list but this is playing in my head after reading it...."Hello, Green Bay? Hi, this is National Debt Relief."

We have some time sensitive documents for you. Please use case #43542176 when you call.

Man, if we could go back into a time machine, I’d go get the 2020 version of Chris Godwin.  He was just a fantastic player back then, but after 2 major injuries in the past 4 years, I have my doubts the Pack would even bother going after him.

Tee Higgins likely would be the best WR on the Pack if we signed him, but my gut feeling is he’ll get a higher offer than what the Pack would give him.  I look at Higgins as a great #2 WR, just okay as a #1.

I am 95% sure we would not sign that Miami Safety considering we just drafted 2 with fairly high draft picks plus put a bunch of money into McKinney.

X and Williams are a pretty good pair, and Bullard is coming along. I'd only break that up if there were a cheap upgrade.

Much of the issue is that the guys you mention are on their third contracts. Tae is 32 (where did the time go?!); Garrett is 29. Crosby is still in his prime at 27, and Higgins is 25. I see Higgins as difficult to determine between a 1 and a 2, just because of his QBs and where he's played.

Other than Tae, I don't see a WR out there that would make a #1, but maybe Tae would take a "second-chance discount" to come back to GB. Plus, his age means it would be a short contract.

Gute should trade a high pick(s) for a #1 WR or Edge, and use cap $$$$ to sign the other. Use remaining draft capital and cap to fill in other areas and depth. 

@Fandame posted:

Much of the issue is that the guys you mention are on their third contracts. Tae is 32  and Higgins is 25. I see Higgins as difficult to determine between a 1 and a 2, just because of his QBs and where he's played.

Other than Tae, I don't see a WR out there that would make a #1, but maybe Tae would take a "second-chance discount" to come back to GB. Plus, his age means it would be a short contract.

I don't know that they would go and get, or that they absolutely need a true #1.  I think they could make it work with a boderline #1 knowing there would be other weapons in the offense - hopefully another reliable vet #2/3.  And he wouldn't necessarily need to beat double/triple coverage on a regular basis.  Because those elite #1's aren't usually available and Gute wouldn't pay for one.

Amari Cooper isn’t an elite #1, but may be available for a price they’d pay. There’s little in free agency scheduled this year, though, and not a strong draft class.

@Herschel posted:

Amari Cooper isn’t an elite #1, but may be available for a price they’d pay. There’s little in free agency scheduled this year, though, and not a strong draft class.

Even if it were strong, seldom do rookie WO make an impact. FA or Trade has to be in the plans. It should have been before CW9 blew his knee. Packers are desperately in need of a quality WR...even an aged one.

@Chongo posted:

Even if it were strong, seldom do rookie WO make an impact. FA or Trade has to be in the plans. It should have been before CW9 blew his knee. Packers are desperately in need of a quality WR...even an aged one.

Rong

Been 3 or more "elite" WR coming out and showing out the past few years. 

Why not take a shot at one.  Of course could end up with another meh DE, LB, CB or wounded OL

Here is a good scenario to boost the WR core. Sign Adams to a team friendly deal and trade for DK Metcalf. Rumors are Seattle may look to trade him away. However, that contract is scary huge.

Having Jacobs, Daubs, Metcalf, Adams, Kraft would be a scary five on the field.

Chances of that happening is slimmer than Lefluer being a clock management genius.

@Iowacheese posted:

Rong

Been 3 or more "elite" WR coming out and showing out the past few years.

Why not take a shot at one.  Of course could end up with another meh DE, LB, CB or wounded OL

Name me one that was taken with pick #24 or worse.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

To add a level of difficulty to bringing in a higher level FA WR, they will need to be agreeable to being a part of the puzzle, not necessarily the star that sets receptions or yards records or goes Me-shaun on MLF.  They'll need to be content with a role, albeit an important one.  MLF's offense seems to be at its best when the ball is more evenly distributed.

@DH13 posted:

To add a level of difficulty to bringing in a higher level FA WR, they will need to be agreeable to being a part of the puzzle, not necessarily the star that sets receptions or yards records or goes Me-shaun on MLF.  They'll need to be content with a role, albeit an important one.  MLF's offense seems to be at its best when the ball is more evenly distributed.

That was true last year, but I'm not sure about this year. This year with Jacobs, having a true #1 may have been the better option; someone who could be counted on to make a play whenever the run stalled out. With multiple role players like last year, it's better to throw more, spread the ball out, and keep them all involved. My two cents.

@Chongo posted:

Name me one that was taken with pick #24 or worse.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Usually, that's the case. The good ones this year were Harrison and Nabers and they went 4th and 6th overall.

An exception is Puka Nacua, who went for 105 catches, 1486 yards, and 8 TDs as a rookie. He followed that up with similar stats over 11 games this year. But every team missed him, even the Rams who waited until the 5th round to take.

@Fandame posted:

That was true last year, but I'm not sure about this year. This year with Jacobs, having a true #1 may have been the better option; someone who could be counted on to make a play whenever the run stalled out. With multiple role players like last year, it's better to throw more, spread the ball out, and keep them all involved. My two cents.

I don't think what Jacobs did this year had anything to do with the passing game not working like it did late last year.  I think that's more a reflection of our WR's not taking the next step in their development to counter what defenses have done, than simply not having a true #1.  And having that guy doesn't mean you can't spread the ball around.  In fact his presence would make it easier to do so.  Maybe I read your post wrong.

Going to take a really good sell Job to convince a noteworthy wide receiver to come to Green Bay after how the offense sputtered and love didn’t progress.

Easy, convince them they'll be the ones to stop the sputtering. 

@EC Pack posted:

Easy, convince them they'll be the ones to stop the sputtering. 

And give them more money than anyone else will. It worked on Charles Woodson.

That's almost always the correct answer.

@Chongo posted:

Name me one that was taken with pick #24 or worse.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

You can’t move the goalpost when you are rong Nick.  

DH, It should, but you have to have a guy who can get open on that play that can change a game or keep an important drive alive. If you throw the ball a lot to one guy like Rodgers used to do with Adams, then yeah, teams key in on that. Rodgers' best games with Adams were when he targeted nine or 10 different WRs.

But if you have guys who can't or are marginal at getting open like GB has right now, they don't get open on that second- or third-and-long as often or as reliably as a true #1. Washington has McLaurin whenever Daniels needs someone; everyone knows Mahomes is going to Kelce, yet he's open; Evans is there for Mayfield; Hill for Tua; Jefferson for Darnold, etc. Who is the security blanket for Love? Kraft maybe could be, but that doesn't seem to be MLF's move.

I didn't see anyone consistently taking that step this year. Watson was maybe starting to, but that was interrupted by Love's and his own injuries and it's unclear if Watson can be a reliable #1. Doubs was out and is not a #1. Reed disappeared this year. Wicks had trouble holding onto the ball. Melton is a speedy guy (and that was definitely PI in the EZ yesterday), but he's a depth guy only. Heath has excellent hands and strength but lacks speed. (I would like to see him get more opportunities though.) I think if Love has a true #1 who can make that catch, then I think the O with Jacobs becomes more effective.

Mark Tauscher on the Wilde and Tausch show this morning advocating for Davante Adam’s.

@DH13 posted:

I don't think what Jacobs did this year had anything to do with the passing game not working like it did late last year.  I think that's more a reflection of our WR's not taking the next step in their development to counter what defenses have done, than simply not having a true #1.  And having that guy doesn't mean you can't spread the ball around.  In fact his presence would make it easier to do so.  Maybe I read your post wrong.

I don't think it has anything to do with Jacobs himself, more how MLF structured the offense because of what he can do. Mark Tauscher had some good points today. Said in the First Half Eagles were playing 5 men at the LOS and bringing a safety down on First Down making it almost impossible to run the ball. Couldn't understand why MLF didn't pass the ball more on First and Second Down vs that front.

@Iowacheese posted:

Rong

Been 3 or more "elite" WR coming out and showing out the past few years.

Why not take a shot at one.  Of course could end up with another meh DE, LB, CB or wounded OL

Because the Packers will pick the wrong one and you'll be bitching about some Iowa player the Packers skipped over with that draft pick.

Especially when they could have drafted an elite Hawkeye like Lukas Van Ness. 

@Fandame posted:

DH, It should, but you have to have a guy who can get open on that play that can change a game or keep an important drive alive. If you throw the ball a lot to one guy like Rodgers used to do with Adams, then yeah, teams key in on that. Rodgers' best games with Adams were when he targeted nine or 10 different WRs.

But if you have guys who can't or are marginal at getting open like GB has right now, they don't get open on that second- or third-and-long as often or as reliably as a true #1. Washington has McLaurin whenever Daniels needs someone; everyone knows Mahomes is going to Kelce, yet he's open; Evans is there for Mayfield; Hill for Tua; Jefferson for Darnold, etc. Who is the security blanket for Love? Kraft maybe could be, but that doesn't seem to be MLF's move.

I didn't see anyone consistently taking that step this year. Watson was maybe starting to, but that was interrupted by Love's and his own injuries and it's unclear if Watson can be a reliable #1. Doubs was out and is not a #1. Reed disappeared this year. Wicks had trouble holding onto the ball. Melton is a speedy guy (and that was definitely PI in the EZ yesterday), but he's a depth guy only. Heath has excellent hands and strength but lacks speed. (I would like to see him get more opportunities though.) I think if Love has a true #1 who can make that catch, then I think the O with Jacobs becomes more effective.

If you've read any of my other diatribes on this you'd know I've said the same thing over and over since about mid season when it was clear the passing game wasn't as effective as it was late last year.  I think the only finer point I'm trying to make is that your offense is better when there is more than one guy to key on.  For all the times we've seen #1WR's get open in a pinch, we've seen just as many shut down.  You can't just have the one guy, you need multiple threats.  The best offenses in the league and the likely SB winner will have more than just a clear #1WR.  The only one that comes close is Daniels/McClaurin but he's on a bit of an outlier run right now because of his threat to run and his opposing defenses' lack of familiarity.

@Chongo posted:

Name me one that was taken with pick #24 or worse.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Just in 2020 alone:

#25 Brandon Aiyuk second-team NFL All Pro last year, two 1,000 yard seasons. Rookie season: 60 catches for 748 yards and 5 TD in 12 games.

#33 Tee Higgins has had two 1,000 seasons, and had 73 rec for 911 yards and 10 TD in 12 games this season. Rookie season: 67 catches for 908 yard and 6 TD.

#34 the very next pick, Michael Pittman Jr two 1,000 yard seasons, including 109  catches for 1,152 yards in 2023. Rookie season: 40 catches for 503 yards and a touchdown, but was only targeted 60 times and started only 8 games. Second season: 88 catches for 1,082 yards and 6 TD.

There are absolutely receivers that can and do make a serious impact in their first season in the NFL. The Packers have only to identify the prospect, draft them, and provide them the opportunity. But they do not draft receivers in the first round….ever. IIRC, the last time they did was Javon Walker.

Amon St Brown was drafted in the 4th round in 2021. Rookie year: 91 catches, 912 yards and 5 TD. He’s been First Team NFL All Pro the last two seasons.

The Packers need to change their approach, and get better at identifying pass receiving talent.

Do a Constanza.  You know, opposite George.

Go back and look at the evaluations of the WR's they didn't draft because they didn't like something about them that excelled later in the NFL.

Then, identify WR's that have those traits they didn't like and draft them.

@lambeausouth posted:

Just in 2020 alone:

#25 Brandon Aiyuk second-team NFL All Pro last year, two 1,000 yard seasons. Rookie season: 60 catches for 748 yards and 5 TD in 12 games.

#33 Tee Higgins has had two 1,000 seasons, and had 73 rec for 911 yards and 10 TD in 12 games this season. Rookie season: 67 catches for 908 yard and 6 TD.

#34 the very next pick, Michael Pittman Jr two 1,000 yard seasons, including 109  catches for 1,152 yards in 2023. Rookie season: 40 catches for 503 yards and a touchdown, but was only targeted 60 times and started only 8 games. Second season: 88 catches for 1,082 yards and 6 TD.

There are absolutely receivers that can and do make a serious impact in their first season in the NFL. The Packers have only to identify the prospect, draft them, and provide them the opportunity. But they do not draft receivers in the first round….ever. IIRC, the last time they did was Javon Walker.

Amon St Brown was drafted in the 4th round in 2021. Rookie year: 91 catches, 912 yards and 5 TD. He’s been First Team NFL All Pro the last two seasons.

The Packers need to change their approach, and get better at identifying pass receiving talent.

Good list. How about these additions from 2019:

Terry McLaurin (drafted 76th overall - 1 pick after Jace Sternberger) - 58 catches for 919 yards and 7 TDs (with Dwayne Haskins, Case Keenum, and Colt McCoy);

A.J. Brown (drafted 52nd overall) - 52/1,051/8TDs;

DK Metcalf (drafted 64th overall) - 58/900/8TDs;

Deebo Samuel (drafted 36th overall) - 57/802/3TDs; and

Darius Slayton (drafted 171st overall)  48/740/8 TDs.

All of these players were available when the GM traded two 4th round picks to move up and select Darnell Savage at pick 21.

Productive WRs have been available to Green Bay. The GM has repeatedly passed on them.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Usually, that's the case. The good ones this year were Harrison and Nabers and they went 4th and 6th overall.

An exception is Puka Nacua, who went for 105 catches, 1486 yards, and 8 TDs as a rookie. He followed that up with similar stats over 11 games this year. But every team missed him, even the Rams who waited until the 5th round to take.

Puka fell due to injury concerns/recovery more than talent. They’re different types, but Bru McCoy from Tennessee might be worth a shot on day 3.

@lambeausouth posted:

Just in 2020 alone:

#25 Brandon Aiyuk second-team NFL All Pro last year, two 1,000 yard seasons. Rookie season: 60 catches for 748 yards and 5 TD in 12 games.

#33 Tee Higgins has had two 1,000 seasons, and had 73 rec for 911 yards and 10 TD in 12 games this season. Rookie season: 67 catches for 908 yard and 6 TD.

#34 the very next pick, Michael Pittman Jr two 1,000 yard seasons, including 109  catches for 1,152 yards in 2023. Rookie season: 40 catches for 503 yards and a touchdown, but was only targeted 60 times and started only 8 games. Second season: 88 catches for 1,082 yards and 6 TD.

There are absolutely receivers that can and do make a serious impact in their first season in the NFL. The Packers have only to identify the prospect, draft them, and provide them the opportunity. But they do not draft receivers in the first round….ever. IIRC, the last time they did was Javon Walker.

Amon St Brown was drafted in the 4th round in 2021. Rookie year: 91 catches, 912 yards and 5 TD. He’s been First Team NFL All Pro the last two seasons.

The Packers need to change their approach, and get better at identifying pass receiving talent.

I don't think the issue is fans don't think stud WRs aren't available unless they're Top 10 picks (triple negative in that sentence).   I think the issue is relying on finding "the guy" in the late first round versus finding "the guy" in free agency or a trade.  Of course stud WR are found in every round, and some of the WRs have great rookie seasons. But I'll bet there are more WR picks 20-32 and 2nd round that took time to develop as opposed to being stellar in their first seasons.

I'd try to go the trade route (if there's a willing partner and the price not ridiculous) or free agency, and if a really good WR is there in the first or second, go for it. But I think the Packers offense needs a really good veteran WR, IMO.

@SteveLuke posted:

Good list. How about these additions from 2019:

Terry McLaurin (drafted 76th overall - 1 pick after Jace Sternberger) - 58 catches for 919 yards and 7 TDs (with Dwayne Haskins, Case Keenum, and Colt McCoy);

These WRs wera all picked before McLaurin:

Second Round - JJ Arcega-Whiteside (57), Andy Isabella (62), Jalen Hurd (67)

A.J. Brown (drafted 52nd overall) - 52/1,051/8TDs;

This WR was picked before Brown:

First Round - N'Keal Harry (32)

DK Metcalf (drafted 64th overall) - 58/900/8TDs;

Deebo Samuel (drafted 36th overall) - 57/802/3TDs; and

This WR was also picked before Deebo:

First Round - N'Keal Harry (32)

Darius Slayton (drafted 171st overall)  48/740/8 TDs.

These WRs wera all picked before Slayton:

MIles Boykin (93), Hakeem Butler (103), Gary Jennings (120), and Riley Ridley (126)

All of these players were available when the GM traded two 4th round picks to move up and select Darnell Savage at pick 21.

And all of the players I mentioned were also available at variojus points in the draft that the Packers could've selected. You should lend your crystal ball to Gute and company because I'm sure you knew the one I mentioned were overdrafted compared to who could've been selected instead, right?

Productive WRs have been available to Green Bay. The GM has repeatedly passed on them.

It's really easy to play this game of cherry picking the WR the Packers should've taken. There are plenty of players the Packers didn't take that would've been unproductive and/or bad picks as well.

Not happy with the DeGuara pick, absolutely. Bitching about not selecting the WRs you mention, well, that's typical you. And just about everyone on this board knows the guy FRONT OFFICE schtick. It's old and continuously recycled. But you keep being you.

@PackLandVA posted:

And here you whine about being exposed as the biggest unflinching FRONT OFFICE shill on the board.

Why?

Why run from what you so obviously love - defending the FRONT OFFICE from any and all criticism?

The initial post posited that NO ROOKIE WRs PICKED 24 OR LATER could possibly be of any assistance to GB and the initial response by another poster showed plenty of such WRs from the 2020 draft alone proved otherwise.

I merely pointed out that there were also numerous rookie WRs available in 2019 ... who could have helped the Packers ... in 2019. Sorry to have pointed out those inconvenient facts.

Now, J'Mon Moore, MVS, Equanimeous St. Brown (2018), Amari Rodgers (2021), Christian Watson, Romeo Doubs, Samori Toure (2022), Jayden Reed, Dontayvion Wicks, Grant Dubose (2023) -- tell us as Gutey's #1 fanboy how he has stocked the WR room with so much talent that Jordan Love (and the prior QB before him) has had no option but to shine by throwing to this group of incomparable pass catchers.

Of course, and to be fair, it must be noted that in his first 7 years the GM also brought in Alan Lazard, Devin Funchess, and the corpse of Sammy Watkins, so perhaps the thrill that runs down your leg thinking about all the WR talent Packer QBs have had at their disposal since the GM arrived in 2018 is related to these big free agent signings.

Too many major holes.  

WR

CB

Edge

DL

Center

Any veterans with a year left that could get a good return?    Nope, because our drafts have sucked.

@SteveLuke posted:

And here you whine about being exposed as the biggest unflinching FRONT OFFICE shill on the board.

Why?

Why run from what you so obviously love - defending the FRONT OFFICE from any and all criticism?

Once again you accuse me of being a defender and a schill for the FRONT OFFICE, but you can't find one post, let alone several, that make your case.  Try again!

My point is that there obviously were WRs in 2019 (and every draft for that matter) that succeed in their rookie seasons from most every round.  But there's also plenty that have disappointed at best, and many that have been absolute dogshit.  You make it seem like there were/are always obvious choices that will work out, when no pick is ever guaranteed success regardless of the round.

But you keep being you FRONT OFFICE guy!!!

@Fedya posted:

Because the Packers will pick the wrong one and you'll be bitching about some Iowa player the Packers skipped over with that draft pick.

Especially when they could have drafted an elite Hawkeye like Lukas Van Ness. 

JMHO, the Packers have to get their OL settled before they do much else via draft or FA. Center, possibly LG (if Jenkins is moved), maybe LT (if Morgan makes a run at Walker). Rhyan seems to have locked down RG and played well, and although Tom looked like he was breaking down over the last 2-3 games, he had been playing very well.
I'm betting the offense will continue to ride Jacobs for as long as he is producing, and if Lloyd can get on the field, they may run the ball even more than they did this year. In either case, we need a road grader or 2 that can hold up against the DLs of our division opponents (no. 1) and teams like Philly (no.2).

The Pack averaged roughly 31 rush attempts/game, and roughly 28 pass attempts/game. Assuming those will stay at/close to those numbers, it's going to limit who will get a majority of targets.
Believe it or not, if Green Bay actually made a deal with DA, it's only going to aggravate that problem, and further development could be slowed for our 3rd and 4th year players.
Not an entirely bad strategy, but it would seemingly require them to commit to second contracts for the core of those receivers, and I don't know how likely that would be.
It could also be a factor into what resources may be used to draft a WR (the team doesn't need any more "prospects/projects") this year, or whether they try a different ("stop gap") strategy.