Is Saturday as bad as I think he is?
For some reason I had the felling hat the Packers would of liked to move Lang to Center, Newsome to guard, and have Sherrod play left tackle.
With Sherrod, it really is a "who knows?"how good he will be. Even though he will be entering his 3rd season next year, it will be his first training camp (lockout first year, injury this year)and very limited NFL snaps.
I think it was Lombardi I was listening to the other day who noted that the college talent along the offensive line has been lacking for the last few drafts. His point was if you don't get guys high in the draft it's hard to find talent to develop now and even the high end talent is not as good as it has been in the past.
I would agree. Honestly, you need to be looking at "inferior" college offenses, like Wisconsin and even some MAC teams to find true maulers who can actually run and pass block.
Honestly, Joe Thomas was the last all around LT out of the draft.
With that note, I like Don Barclay. I think he can develop into a smart, nasty olineman.
Honestly, Joe Thomas was the last all around LT out of the draft.
With that note, I like Don Barclay. I think he can develop into a smart, nasty olineman.
Well, hopefully Sherrod will recover from his injury like Mike Flannagan did, and have a good NFL career. Flannagan's switch in mid-season from center to Left Tackle, and playing well there, was an amazing thing.
...and then add to that you can barely get the players ready anymore with all the limited practice rules. As crazy as it sounds the games have actually become part of practice and if you want to develop the full padded run attack you literally have to do it during the course of a game. The opportunities aren't there during the week like they used to be.quote:I would agree. Honestly, you need to be looking at "inferior" college offenses, like Wisconsin and even some MAC teams to find true maulers who can actually run and pass block.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:
Drafting tackle depth is needed.
True, but I think Datko has a chance.
quote:My wish, TT drafts the nastiest mother****in' center in the draft.
I'll 3rd that.
OL is our most glaring need. Saturday is toast, and the rest of them need competition to get their heads out of their vaginas.
And since our RB's are constantly getting dinged up behind our "offensive" line, why isn't Cobb lined up more in the backfield? He's the only one with enough speed to go wide around a stumbling bumbling Bulaga.
Green and Starks are fine RBs, there's nothing wrong with them. If they had holes to run through then they could produce. Green has the vision and the physical talent and he has right attitude, but if there's nowhere to run then he's not going anywhere. Walter Payton couldn't run behind the way that OLine run blocks.
quote:Originally posted by titmfatied:quote:He is sloppy
Starks has never picked up the offense, in particular pass protection, no way MM is letting the franchise get killed.
Rodgers has no confidence in Starks being in the right spot, running the right release, picking up the blitz, just basically knowing WTF is going on.
I've seen some clips of Green running hard between the T's at Hawaii, but Saturday is getting no push.
quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:quote:Originally posted by titmfatied:quote:He is sloppy
Starks has never picked up the offense, in particular pass protection, no way MM is letting the franchise get killed.
Rodgers has no confidence in Starks being in the right spot, running the right release, picking up the blitz, just basically knowing WTF is going on.
He sure seemed fine a couple years ago during the playoff push/Super Bowl run...
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Green and Starks are fine RBs, there's nothing wrong with them. If they had holes to run through then they could produce. Green has the vision and the physical talent and he has right attitude, but if there's nowhere to run then he's not going anywhere. Walter Payton couldn't run behind the way that OLine run blocks.
Benson managed to be productive behind this offensive line. Granted, the line isn't very good at run blocking, but backs have to be able to pick up unblocked yards. Green hasn't done that and I'm not sure if he can.
quote:Originally posted by living in the past:quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
Rodgers has no confidence in Starks being in the right spot, running the right release, picking up the blitz, just basically knowing WTF is going on.
He sure seemed fine a couple years ago during the playoff push/Super Bowl run...
Some people improve/learn, others regress.
Benson:
71 attempts
248 yards
3.5 avg.
1 TD
Green:
76 attempts
219 yards
2.9 avg.
0 TD
How can you say Benson was productive? He was a little more productive than Green (by 48 yards), but he struggled with the same things. Teams weren't respecting the run against Benson just like they don't against Green. You can trot all the RBs you want out there, but none of them will get you the production you want if your OLine can't run block. And then when you're QB has brain freeze and can't pass, it makes it soooo much easier for teams to stonewall the run. Don't blame Green, Starks or Benson, blame the OLine or more specifically blame the coaches. I don't think Campen is getting everything he can out of this very talented group of OL (except Saturday who is a stop gap) and I don't McCarthy playing to their strengths with his calls. They need an OL coach who can motivate these guys and get them to play to their abilities.
71 attempts
248 yards
3.5 avg.
1 TD
Green:
76 attempts
219 yards
2.9 avg.
0 TD
How can you say Benson was productive? He was a little more productive than Green (by 48 yards), but he struggled with the same things. Teams weren't respecting the run against Benson just like they don't against Green. You can trot all the RBs you want out there, but none of them will get you the production you want if your OLine can't run block. And then when you're QB has brain freeze and can't pass, it makes it soooo much easier for teams to stonewall the run. Don't blame Green, Starks or Benson, blame the OLine or more specifically blame the coaches. I don't think Campen is getting everything he can out of this very talented group of OL (except Saturday who is a stop gap) and I don't McCarthy playing to their strengths with his calls. They need an OL coach who can motivate these guys and get them to play to their abilities.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger: I don't think Campen is getting everything he can out of this very talented group of OL (except Saturday who is a stop gap) and I don't McCarthy playing to their strengths with his calls.
IMO, "very talented" is quite a stretch. As a group I doubt it is rated no higher than average.
The problem is also with playcalling, IMO. They line up in a run formation on first down and low and behold, a stuffed run. If they get a first down, then on first down it's spread and nobody in the backfield. I'm not sure why they can't throw from perceived run formations more.
Benson was a lot more productive than Green. Anyone who watched the games could see that. Benson consistently picked up 3 or 4 yards. Aside from his one long run, Green is barely getting 2 yards per carry. You have your opinion and I have mine. We'll eventually find out who's right.
I always forget that runs over 20 yards don't count.
I'm confused how 2.9 yards per carry is almost 2 yards per carry?
And yes the OL has a lot of physical talent. Sitton is one of the top OGs in the NFL and Lang has the talent to be that as well. And you have two Tackles who, when they're 100% and on their game, could stifle any pass rusher in the NFL. You're weak link is at Center, but you can work around that if the rest of the line is talented. This OL should be doing a lot more than they are.
And yes the OL has a lot of physical talent. Sitton is one of the top OGs in the NFL and Lang has the talent to be that as well. And you have two Tackles who, when they're 100% and on their game, could stifle any pass rusher in the NFL. You're weak link is at Center, but you can work around that if the rest of the line is talented. This OL should be doing a lot more than they are.
You need to read more closely. I wrote aside from his one long run, he's barely getting 2 yards per carry. The exact number is 2.37.
So Alex Green can rip off a 41 yard run, but that was clearly just a fluke. He is just a crappy RB that miraculously found himself in an unusual situation where he had all this open space and was barely smart enough to figure out what to do with it. If Green is the problem and not the OL and Benson is superior, how has Benson not managed a run longer than 11 this year? It's an OL issue and the stats, which I normally don't like using, reflect that.
Offensive Hog Index through week 8
Green Bay's OL ranks 24th.
NFL.com Offensive Line rankings
Green Bay's OL ranks 31st.
If you're not opening holes, you're RBs are not going to have success. How is Alfred Morris tearing it up in Washington and he's some nobody rooki RB. He's not more talented than Alex Green, no way. He's a talented RB, but their OL is opening holes. Ours is not. Green would look like Arian Foster if he had somewhere to run, heck if the OL was opening holes they could suit up Edgar Bennett and he could have success.
Offensive Hog Index through week 8
Green Bay's OL ranks 24th.
NFL.com Offensive Line rankings
Green Bay's OL ranks 31st.
If you're not opening holes, you're RBs are not going to have success. How is Alfred Morris tearing it up in Washington and he's some nobody rooki RB. He's not more talented than Alex Green, no way. He's a talented RB, but their OL is opening holes. Ours is not. Green would look like Arian Foster if he had somewhere to run, heck if the OL was opening holes they could suit up Edgar Bennett and he could have success.
next year the OL will be Bulaga, Sitton, Lang at Center, Newhouse at guard, and sherrod at LT. I don;t see any running back able to run up the middle with Saturday at center. He gets no push.
Do you remember Marshall Newhouse at LG when he was a rookie? He was brutal. He's a LT only.
Has Lang ever played as a center?
It's like having a discussion with Cliff Clavin.
I'm in the Starks camp..
I don't see vision from Green between the tackles.. Once he does get in space, he can make a guy miss, but he just doesn't have the vision to find the cut backs..
I'm also on the EDS bandwagon.
I don't see vision from Green between the tackles.. Once he does get in space, he can make a guy miss, but he just doesn't have the vision to find the cut backs..
I'm also on the EDS bandwagon.
quote:Originally posted by heyward:
It's like having a discussion with Cliff Clavin.
Funny because I feel like I'm having a discussion with Woody.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger: And you have two Tackles who, when they're 100% and on their game, could stifle any pass rusher in the NFL.
You think Newhouse is an elite left tackle when 100%?
quote:How is Alfred Morris tearing it up in Washington and he's some nobody rooki RB.
Bad analogy IMO. Morris is a powerful one-cut decisive RB, Green is none of those. Besides, Shanahan has always had a solid running game, MM not so much.
We've seen him stifle some really good pass rushers. Sometimes he gets beat by some really good pass rushers. He's not elite, not at all, but he has the physical ability to be elite certainly. Will he ever be elite? I don't know, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. Right now he's average to above average.
My point was not that we have an elite OL right now (which is what you're hung up on for some reason?), but our starting OL have the physical talent to be an elite unit and Campen is not getting it out of them. And they're not dumb guys, they have all of the tools and attitudes to be an elite group, but for some reason they just aren't. I think that reason is and has always been coaching.
My point was not that we have an elite OL right now (which is what you're hung up on for some reason?), but our starting OL have the physical talent to be an elite unit and Campen is not getting it out of them. And they're not dumb guys, they have all of the tools and attitudes to be an elite group, but for some reason they just aren't. I think that reason is and has always been coaching.
Point taken on me taking your "very talented" comment and pushing it to "elite."
Personally I think it is neither. I think it is below average.
Personally I think it is neither. I think it is below average.
quote:Originally posted by Shoeless Joe:
Bad analogy IMO. Morris is a powerful one-cut decisive RB, Green is none of those. Besides, Shanahan has always had a solid running game, MM not so much.
There's nothing Alfred Morris can do that Alex Green can't. It's the OL that is making the difference, the OL and the scheme. Green is big, strong, fast, has the right attitude, and gives a great effort so there's no reason why he shouldn't be having success. Yes Shanny knows how to run the ball, McCarthy doesn't seem to. Shanny has had and is still having more success with inferior players as far as the running game goes. Put Green in Washington and he would do what Morris is doing and put Morris in GB and he'd be doing what Green is doing.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger:quote:Originally posted by heyward:
It's like having a discussion with Cliff Clavin.
Funny because I feel like I'm having a discussion with Woody.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger:quote:Originally posted by Shoeless Joe:
Bad analogy IMO. Morris is a powerful one-cut decisive RB, Green is none of those. Besides, Shanahan has always had a solid running game, MM not so much.
There's nothing Alfred Morris can do that Alex Green can't. It's the OL that is making the difference, the OL and the scheme. Green is big, strong, fast, has the right attitude, and gives a great effort so there's no reason why he shouldn't be having success. Yes Shanny knows how to run the ball, McCarthy doesn't seem to. Shanny has had and is still having more success with inferior players as far as the running game goes. Put Green in Washington and he would do what Morris is doing and put Morris in GB and he'd be doing what Green is doing.
It's all about decisiveness. Morris has it, he sees a crease and he hits it. Green dances in place waaaaaay to much waiting for a crease to open. Sometimes you have to make your own crease as I've seen Morris do many times, Green again, not so much. Do I think Green sucks? Nope, but no way is he better at the one-cut and go running like Morris is capable of doing.
quote:Originally posted by Shoeless Joe:
It's all about decisiveness. Morris has it, he sees a crease and he hits it. Green dances in place waaaaaay to much waiting for a crease to open. Sometimes you have to make your own crease as I've seen Morris do many times, Green again, not so much. Do I think Green sucks? Nope, but no way is he better at the one-cut and go running like Morris is capable of doing.
It's easy to be decisive when there is a hole there, and it's equally tough to be decisive when there isn't a hole.
Anyone remember Olandis Gary and Mike Anderson? Average RB's (at best) that put up 1,000 yard seasons under Shanahan. I'm not ready to anoint Morris as anything more than an average RB that is playing under a great scheme.