The Ugly, The Bad ...and the Good?

The Good.

1. Cook showed how much the offense can benefit when you have a TE that is a receiving threat. They really haven't had that since Finley.

2. Rodgers missed a few, but it was clear that Cousins was also having problems with balls thrown in the flat because of the wind. A couple of those moved several feet when thrown in that direction. Other than that, Rodgers played pretty well. The OL can't run block and can't really protect, so Rodgers is what's keeping them somewhat respectable. He's not what he was in 2014, but it's not like he's the underlying problem. He's on pace for 40 TDs and 11 Ints with no running game and a bad OL right now.

3. The WRs fought hard and broke tackles. They look much better with an actual TE playing next to them.

The Bad/Ugly

1. Obviously the DBs are terrible. DH13 said it previously, but the problem is that several guys are playing about 3 positions too high on the depth chart. Instead of 1. Shields, 2. Randall, 3. Rollins, 4. Hyde they are playing Hyde, Gunther, Brice, etc. They went from playing Shields, Randall, Hayward, and Rollins as their 4 CBs to a bunch of UDFAs and low draft picks. A lot of people rip on Hyde, but 5th round draft picks are not supposed to be key secondary guys. Hyde is supposed to be the replacement for Jarred Bush - a good special teams guy that can fill in a bunch of positions in an emergency. Gunther is an UDFA, Goodson was a 6th round project. Brice and Hawkins are at best practice squad players. They are lining up CBs that would have trouble competing against a good college team and expecting them to compete against NFL players. There is a reason that these guys weren't drafted or were drafted in the late rounds. TT seems to think he's going to find a Sam Shields or Tramon every year as an UDFA and plans accordingly. It's failed miserably this year. Hayward at 5 million a year would have been a godsend at this point. He tried to save money at CB and it's bit them. You could put anyone at DC with this "talent" and they would still be lit up.

2. The front 7 consists of decent OLBs and Mike Daniels and then just a bunch of guys right now. CM3 is not healthy obviously. Peppers is a great guy to have on a Super Bowl contender when you can play him in spots, but he's not an every down player anymore. There is just a lack of young talent on the defense. And FFS, why is Carl Bradford still hanging around GB? You could have put me in last night and I could have fallen backwards on those plays like he did just as well. It was like playing 10 on 11. I think Dom's time is done, but TT has set him up to fail.

3. Please MM,  stop trying to "establish the run" at the beginning of games with our 30 year old career backup RB and our converted WR. Just admit that we don't the RB talent or the OL talent to do it and spread the field. It's their only chance. Last night, we were starting Lane Taylor and Barclay at guard, and a clearly limited Bakh. Going from Sitton/Lang to Taylor/Barclay is going from the best OG tandem in the NFL to maybe the worst.

The sum of all this is that MM and Capers deserve blame for not optimizing game plans, but they are trying to make chicken salad out of chicken **** right now. Due to TT's negligence and some bad luck on the injury front, they really don't have NFL caliber starters at CB, ILB, RB, or OG. CB was partially bad luck, but they knew Shields had a massive concussion history and didn't cover themselves there at all. RB was pure negligence from a personnel standpoint. Sitton may have been done, but Barclay as your top backup? And for god's sakes, get RichRod off the field. Cook looked like an HOFer last night relative to what we've seen from RichRod.

They'll have to blow this up and start over next year. I don't see TT and MM as the guys to oversee a 2-3 year rebuild and Rodgers is going to be 33. Rodgers isn't going anywhere and while he's not been as good as he was from 2009-2014, they'd be the Cleveland Browns without him right now (they are close with him).

packerboi posted:

The Good?

The Packers may very well be drafting in the top 5-7 in 2017 after going 4-12 or 5-11.

The Ugly?

After choosing that high draft choice, it's equally likely it'll be Ted Thompson, Mike McCarthy and Dom Capers high fiving one another after they make the pick.

The problem is that they are more than 1 player away from being a top flight contender again. They are about 4 players away and that's if those players are Ezekiel Elliott, Richard Sherman, Joe Thomas, and a healthy JJ Watt.

FLPACKER posted:

Ha Ha has been a disappointment. Everyone thought he was primed for a big year with some big plays. It just has not happened. 

I don't agree.  The health of the team, that's ruined everything.  Opportunities for him to be utilized to create big plays dried up as the CBs went down. 

After 10 years with Rodgers and 1 Super Bowl, do we still think the draft and develop philosophy (with almost no free agency) is the best long term philosophy?  

Exactly.....I don't know what FLP* is seeing but HaHa is hardly the problem with the defense.

31 other teams would love to have HaHa starting with the Patriots

Ok. I'm willing to dial back the vitriol as we mourn.

I'm placing all blame on Jason Wahlers.

MichiganPacker posted:

packerboi posted:

The Good?

The Packers may very well be drafting in the top 5-7 in 2017 after going 4-12 or 5-11.

The Ugly?

After choosing that high draft choice, it's equally likely it'll be Ted Thompson, Mike McCarthy and Dom Capers high fiving one another after they make the pick.

The problem is that they are more than 1 player away from being a top flight contender again. They are about 4 players away and that's if those players are Ezekiel Elliott, Richard Sherman, Joe Thomas, and a healthy JJ Watt.

Agree, this team is far from one player away. Which is why it continues to be so damn frustrating Ted is so obsessed with the draft and completing his roster with UDFA's and almost never considers free agency.

The one thing we know about Ted's "tree" of exec's that have since left him...Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey, and Schneider is that these guys will use and sign veteran free agents to fill their rosters. Ted simply refuses to.

And considering he's missed on key players in his last 3 drafts, we're now seeing the results of that. A team that has way too many gaps in talent and is too raw and too inexperienced. Thus the reason your seeing the gaffes that we are in communication, blown coverages, etc.

pablopackerfan posted:

After 10 years with Rodgers and 1 Super Bowl, do we still think the draft and develop philosophy (with almost no free agency) is the best long term philosophy?  

Yes but with more flexibility in FA.  The build through the draft strategy is sound when you stop holding onto "development" projects like Bradford and Janis.  But when those picks bottom out, yes, the team needs to find some flexibility with strategic FA pickups.  But the base approach should absolutely to build through the draft.  Especially in the salary cap era. 

MichiganPacker posted:

He tried to save money at CB and it's bit them.

I think it's more the case that Rollins hasn't made the second year jump that was anticipated. Letting Hayward walk to get Rollins on the field really made perfect sense at the time.

Good  

Bad  

Ugly  

Henry posted:

pablopackerfan posted:

After 10 years with Rodgers and 1 Super Bowl, do we still think the draft and develop philosophy (with almost no free agency) is the best long term philosophy?  

Yes but with more flexibility in FA.  The build through the draft strategy is sound when you stop holding onto "development" projects like Bradford and Janis.  But when those picks bottom out, yes, the team needs to find some flexibility with strategic FA pickups.  But the base approach should absolutely to build through the draft.  Especially in the salary cap era. 

Exactly. Saying the philosophy failed because of the results is like saying democracy doesn't work because you don't like the outcome of an election. (For analogy purposes only - please no politics.)

As others have mentioned, TT coming up essentially empty on the last three drafts and making some questionable personnel moves along the way brought this on. Keeping Pep, letting Hayward walk, making the league's 12th best kicker it's 3rd highest paid and the timing of the Sitton move were all examples headscratchers at the time, not just in hindsight. (Moving on from Sitton was justifiable, doing it a week before the season with Barclay as your top backup at two Guard positions was not.)

For seven straight years, the team fielded one of the highest paid QBs and almost never lost a key player it wanted to retain by sticking to the philosophy AND executing it well. The second part is where they've failed recently.

Boris posted:

Exactly.....I don't know what FLP* is seeing but HaHa is hardly the problem with the defense.

31 other teams would love to have HaHa starting with the Patriots

Never said he was biggest problem, just said he has been a disappointment. We really expected a pro bowl type year from him, but no one looking at it realistically can say he has played at that level. No doubt our problems at CB have contributed to Ha Ha's performance, but he just has not made plays along with the rest of the defense. 

(I originally posted this at the end of the game thread, but I think it fits better here

This team clearly needs a rebuild, and since their window of opportunity with a franchise QB in place is closing fast, I am not in total favor of the patient approach through the draft.  If TT is not willing to plug some gaps via free agency, dump him.  To create some cap room, I'd let the following walk: Lacy (can't trust him to be available and stay in shape); Peppers (not much left - probably less next year), Shields (injury settlement - for the sake of his health); D. Jones (never amounted to anything); Perry (I think he is coming around but his asking price is going to be more than he is worth), Starks (nothing left - too slow and can't turn the corner).  I'd also consider trading Matthews since he is basically a part-timer every year because he is as fragile as a china doll.  

TT - or his replacement - needs to sign a solid corner, a deep threat receiver that can stretch the field;   a solid edge rusher;  re-sign Lang and Tretter; re-sign Cook or another TE who is a receiving threat; sign a reliable third down back (in the mold of Sproles) and use the draft to find a decent running back.  

THE GOOD: I WENT TO BED  IN THE 2ND QUARTER AND SLEPT LIKE A BABY.

You?

This team is just not mentally tough.  There is something missing from the character of the team, and I don't know if that is coaching or players.

Used to be that first drive of every game for the O resulted in points.  Used to be that the Packers tried to double-up scoring before the half and coming out of halftime.  Now, it is a guarantee that the O will start slow with inflexibility in formation adjustments, D will give up 7 right before half, D will wilt under pressure to get a stop (OK - that's been true for many years), etc.

At least with the O, there are bright spots and signs of life.  However, there aren't difference makers on defense, and there is no leader to rally them.  It isn't Matthews, Daniels, Peppers, or Burnett.  Shockingly bad.

Each of my 3 sons slept no longer than 2-3 hours at a stretch until they were about 2yo. 

Taking the loss well pic.twitter.com/nBcIbRZLwG

— JS Comments (@JSComments) November 21, 2016

fire everyone and open tryouts this week!!!!  

my gawd 

Goalline posted:

THE GOOD: I WENT TO BED  IN THE 2ND QUARTER AND SLEPT LIKE A BABY.

 

You?

Real Packer fans stick to the end, even if it's bitter.

+ I feel like they're actually going to have a great chance against the Eagles next week

- They're too deep in the hole at this point. They need to win out. Won't happen.

Pack-Man posted:

+ I feel like they're actually going to have a great chance against the Eagles next week

They're going to make a rookie QB look like a 10 yr all-pro.

The have a great chance to get a fabulous cheesesteak.

I agree with the draft and develop philosophy and have been a big TT fan historically but now, we're getting key injuries every year that basically take us out of contention and it's frustrating to see.  Additionally, I think the leadership necessary to propel a team over the top is just not there with Rodgers and McC.  

Do you guys think there's a chance they can win the division with 10-6 or 9-7?  Would be cool to see them pull together and scrap out a playoff berth. 

I hate to say it, but this team would be better off if they lost the rest of their games this season.  If they somehow squeek into the playoffs there is no way they could beat Dallas/Seattle.  We need at least one year of picking early in the rounds.  It's akin to 2013 when they would have been better off not making the playoffs.  

I'm in favor of moving on from the entire front office, but we still have a lot of holes to fill and drafting early won't hurt.  Unfortunately, after this season, it is obvious that an almost total rebuild is needed.  

pablopackerfan posted:

After 10 years with Rodgers and 1 Super Bowl, do we still think the draft and develop philosophy (with almost no free agency) is the best long term philosophy?  

Only if you hit about 3 home runs in a row. They got a HOF QB with the 23rd pick, a guy who played at a HOF level for several years with the 26th pick (CM3), and a HOF DB who came to Green Bay on a discount because everyone else thought he was washed up (Woodson). That's 3 HOF-level players at 3 of the 4 most important positions (QB, edge rusher, CB) without having a top 5 pick. That coupled with having 2 of your other top 3 CBs being UDFA that played like Pro Bowlers on small contracts (Tramon and Shields) is a lot to go right at the same time. Give TT credit, it worked, but it's a lot to ask to replicate that.

The other key position - LT - was manned by a hangover from Ron Wolf (Clifton).

TT's downfall will likely end up being too little effort in free agency. Many of us (at least me) never were in favor of breaking the bank to sign N. Suh or someone like that, but the difference that a guy like Cook would have made was obvious last night (even with the fumble). Inexperienced/UDFAs sometimes make Bostick/Janis-type mistakes that lose you football games more often than you end up with Sam Shields or Tramon Williams.

Packers vs. Browns, who wins?

pablopackerfan posted:

I agree with the draft and develop philosophy and have been a big TT fan historically but now, we're getting key injuries every year that basically take us out of contention and it's frustrating to see.

Even if TT struck gold in 2017 and found the 2.0 versions of say Jordy Nelson, Nick Collins, JerMichael Finley, etc all of those guys took 3-4 years to become those marquee players.

This year, it appears finally Adams is developing into the WR many hoped for. But we're sitting here mid-way through season 3 to see that. We're still waiting for HHCD to "break out", has yet to happen and he's also in season 3. Same with Datone Jones. Same with Nick Perry. Rookie 1st round pick Kenny Clark is just OK so far.

In the meantime, TT has to get players who can play now and be an impact on the team. That's where that whole FA thing comes in. Which he in large part, don't do.

pablopackerfan posted:

I agree with the draft and develop philosophy and have been a big TT fan historically but now, we're getting key injuries every year that basically take us out of contention and it's frustrating to see.  Additionally, I think the leadership necessary to propel a team over the top is just not there with Rodgers and McC.  

Do you guys think there's a chance they can win the division with 10-6 or 9-7?  Would be cool to see them pull together and scrap out a playoff berth. 

I do think this division could be won at 9-7 or even 8-8.  The Vikings are floundering a bit and their OL is a disaster and the Lions?  well you just never know they are the Lions.

I for one never ever blame injuries but this team is just absolutely devastated right now.  On offense Cook has missed almost the whole year, the OL is banged up, they had to start a WR at RB, Phat Eddie  has been gone for what 4-5 weeks now? Shields has missed the whole season, Starks missed quite a few games, Jordy is still working his way back, Matthews has missed lots of time, Rollins and Randall have been gone for what a month or more each? and now the injuries are hitting the ILB with Ryan out.  Like I said I don't like blaming injuries but is a TON to overcome.

So you can draft with the philosophy of developing but man you have to throw these guys in quick and they turn around and get hurt it is a vicious cycle. 

DocBenni posted:

I hate to say it, but this team would be better off if they lost the rest of their games this season. 

I'm in favor of moving on from the entire front office....

Eliot Wolf, Brian Gutekunst, Alonzo Highsmith, Russ Ball and others are part of that front office that you just kicked to the curb Doc.

http://www.packers.com/team/front-office.html

Hippocrates posted: First, do no harm

I'm pretty sure there are at least a couple of steps in between doing nothing and genocide. 

Injuries aren't anyone's fault, that is just bad luck. TT gambles annually that they can sustain injuries and young guys can step up, sometimes it works (2010) and sometimes it fails (2016). It's a risk/reward scenario, the reward is that you get to essentially redshirt young talent like Gunter and Trevor Davis which is beneficial down the road. Normally I'm okay with the strategy, but he gambled in some very odd ways in 2016:

-Keeping 7 WRs and only 2 RBs. I'm okay with 6 WRs, but RB is a position with a lot of wear and tear and Starks is 30+. Keeping Janis and not bringing in more competition at RB seems like a mistake. 

-Relying on 3 second year players at CB with only Shields as the experienced guy. Seems incredibly risky considering Shields gets dinged up every year and you could potentially see 3 guys in a sophomore slump. That's downright dumb if you ask me. Keeping Hayward is debatable, but you have to have some kind of veteran leadership besides Shields. 

-Going in to the season with $30 million tied up between Matthews, Peppers, and Perry considering all 3 only totaled 20 sacks in 2015. 20 sacks sounds like good production production (almost 7 sacks per player) except when you look at the salaries. In 2015 $30 million would have combined to buy you JJ Watt, Von Miller, AND Michael Bennett...and those 3 combined for 38.5 sacks in 2015. That's not a gamble, that's wasting money on guys that aren't earning it. 

So frustrating to see silly moves just waste spots and get the team into a place where they either have no depth, no experienced depth, or no money to buy experienced depth. 

DocBenni posted:

I hate to say it, but this team would be better off if they lost the rest of their games this season.

This is the weirdest logic, someone else said this in the game thread. Why would a fan ever want their team to lose? I don't care what it means in terms of draft position or personnel changes, win the fukking games. Period. 

MichiganPacker posted:

He's on pace for 40 TDs and 11 Ints with no running game and a bad OL right now.

The OL has easily been the most consistent group on the entire team.  Barclay struggled to replace Lang last night but you make it sound like the OL is the reason this offense isn't working.  Of all the problems on this team, OL is probably second to last (behind FG kicking).  I'll admit the run game is struggling but I think that's has more to do with not having a real RB than the blocking.  As for pass blocking, it's more Rodgers and the receivers b/c he's had all kinds of time back there.  Curious as to what you're seeing that I'm missing.  

Janis should not be on the 53, not today, and not back in Sept. I'd be looking to cut him and get another CB. With D.Goodson now gone they only have Rollins, Gunter, and Hawkins healthy.

Agree on the OL. In fact, especially through the 1st 6-7 games, Rodgers had so much time to throw the football it became detrimental to him because he overthought things and wasn't making his reads and just getting rid of it.

Week after week, announcers calling the games during that stretch could not believe all the time AR had to throw.

Yeah I actually have very few complaints with the OL. The complaint is actually with Campen. Why the F has Spriggs not been playing Guard in place of Lang from the moment he was injured? Sure he doesn't fit the "prototype" Guard, he's tall and lean, but he was clearly better than Barclay from the his first snap at RG. He moved better, he was smarter, quicker, and held up better against the bull rush. I don't have to see practice to know who is the better OL. Put your best 5 out their dummy. 

As the for the line themselves, other than a couple bad players here or there this season I'm very satisfied. Rodgers has had a lot of time, sometimes 6 or 7 seconds, which is unreal for a QB. When they had a real RB in there (Lacy) our run game was averaging over 5 ypc. I'd like to see Logan Mankins average that much. 

I think the OL is a strength when healthy, but we all need to remember teams have intentionally been dialing back the pressure to just 4 or even 3 guys per the latest "blueprint."

The main problem is what I've said for years now: coaching. Dom the Maniacal Wizard continuously puts guys in horrible positions to succeed. With our DBs and LBs devastated by injury, I expected to see HaHa and Burnett patrolling the middle of the field deep to keep things in front of them and react to the ball. Instead, they are either on the boundaries or crashing into linemen with no hope of making a play. Our defense is like a cross between a chicken with its head cut off and a wet paper bag. Everyone said our DBs and corners were the strength of our D. Yes, they've been hurt but they have regressed to the point of embarrassment. The sad part is that I think we have good talent, but it's being wasted with this staff. 

I keep hearing about this good talent that we have......it should show up sometime, maybe this week.

Grave Digger posted:

Injuries aren't anyone's fault, that is just bad luck. TT gambles annually that they can sustain injuries and young guys can step up, sometimes it works (2010) and sometimes it fails (2016). It's a risk/reward scenario, the reward is that you get to essentially redshirt young talent like Gunter and Trevor Davis which is beneficial down the road. Normally I'm okay with the strategy, but he gambled in some very odd ways in 2016:

-Keeping 7 WRs and only 2 RBs. I'm okay with 6 WRs, but RB is a position with a lot of wear and tear and Starks is 30+. Keeping Janis and not bringing in more competition at RB seems like a mistake. 

-Relying on 3 second year players at CB with only Shields as the experienced guy. Seems incredibly risky considering Shields gets dinged up every year and you could potentially see 3 guys in a sophomore slump. That's downright dumb if you ask me. Keeping Hayward is debatable, but you have to have some kind of veteran leadership besides Shields. 

-Going in to the season with $30 million tied up between Matthews, Peppers, and Perry considering all 3 only totaled 20 sacks in 2015. 20 sacks sounds like good production production (almost 7 sacks per player) except when you look at the salaries. In 2015 $30 million would have combined to buy you JJ Watt, Von Miller, AND Michael Bennett...and those 3 combined for 38.5 sacks in 2015. That's not a gamble, that's wasting money on guys that aren't earning it. 

So frustrating to see silly moves just waste spots and get the team into a place where they either have no depth, no experienced depth, or no money to buy experienced depth. 

I say this with all due respect, when GD, possibly the last Green and Gold kool ade drinker on the site starts to see what others have been pointing out for a while it says volumes.  GD is a Packer fan extraordinaire and knows his team and football.

Goalline posted:

THE GOOD: I WENT TO BED  IN THE 2ND QUARTER AND SLEPT LIKE A BABY.

 

You?

I was listening to the game in bed, and stayed awake through the missed FG.  I didn't get much sleep and have been tired all day. 

excalibur posted:

Packers vs. Browns, who wins?

BROWNS!!!