Barclay good

More observations of defense as I slowmo -- Walden had no pass rush, Moses was better providing pressure. Young cornerbacks are great, each one. I know we don't like to discuss it, but Hawk is slowwwwwww, gets pushed around like a rag doll and can't hit. I don't get all the tolerance. He may make the calls but he can't make plays. Since Hawk has been a starter the middle of the field has been easy picking for Pack opponents. Hawk and Saturday will not be staring next year, and shouldn't be now.

That's great to hear about Barclay. Thanks for the analysis.

Walden looks to be wearing down again like late last year. The OLB crew is thin because of injuries and Capers isn't able to rotate and keep the starters fresh like earlier in the year. Getting Matthews back will help but I can see this continuing to be a problem for the remainder of the season.

Isn't Hawk leading the Packers in tackles?

•Has either led the team or finished second in tackles in five of his six seasons in Green Bay.
•Has appeared in 94 of a possible 96 regular-season games in his career, starting 91 of them.
•Missed his first-ever games in 2011 after suffering a calf injury at Detroit in Week 12.

Agreed. Lang needs to come back to LG. Not only does LG get better with EDS going to the bench, but I think Barclay is actually better than Lang at RT. I might actually bring back the "Fire MM" thread if Barclay is sent to the bench.

I have no tolerance for Hawk. I've been critical of him for awhile. He needs to be replaced next year and unless Manning really steps up, TT will need to draft someone high. #2 need behind center. Jones, Hawk and Smith are just guys. Great defenses have great players in the middle.

And yes, Walden is nothing more than a backup. That's why Perry was drafted last year. Hoping that when CMIII is back, Walden and Moses can split time. Zombo, though, needs to be inactive. Can't believe this team won the Super Bowl with him as a starter. Really hope Perry can develop into a real threat opposite CMIII. I also have high hopes for Moses.

I watched Hawk on several stunt blitzes last night (where he cris crosses with the other LB) and the fact that he didn't even come remotely close to getting real pressure much less sack Stafford is pretty amazing and leaves you dumbfounded how he can be that inept.

One of the goals for 2013 has to be finding an upgrade at ILB. Bishop hopefully is 100 percent going into TC but you'd have to think TT gives Capers a better option.

Cristl with some pretty good analysis of yesterday's game. This was interesting on Woody's return:

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Secondary

Once again, Calvin Johnson padded his stats against the Packers, and, once again, Tramon Williams prevented him from making a game-changing play. Williams gives up six inches in that matchup, but his vertical leap makes up for some of that and his ability to play the ball helps as well.

House missed a tackle early on a 13-yard run by Joique Bell and should have played the 3-yard touchdown pass to tight end Tony Scheffler more aggressively. House needs to see that pick coming and get his hands on the receiver at the snap of the ball.

Woodson figures to replace M.D. Jennings, but there also are things he does better in the slot than Casey Hayward.

One, Woodson does a better job of timing the blitz. Two, he has more savvy than Hayward on running plays. When a pulling lineman comes out, Woodson knows where to be. He knows he can’t be too deep and that he has to take on that blocker low and create a pile-up. Hayward isn’t there yet. He takes on blockers too deep.

Future looks bright for Packers Defense

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And yes, Walden is nothing more than a backup.

No. But it depends on how you define backup/starter in this defense. He is very good when he is kept fresh with a rotation (see first half of season) but struggles when playing too many snaps (see games since losing Perry and Clay).

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Originally posted by TimthePackerFan:
Isn't Hawk leading the Packers in tackles?

•Has either led the team or finished second in tackles in five of his six seasons in Green Bay.

The only problem with this stat is that he makes them 5-7 yards past the LOS.

Hawk was a solid LB overall until the last couple of years or so. He was never a good cover LB, but used to be able to play the run, and had decent sideline-to-sideline range.
However, after seeing other LB play this year, primarily Willis and Bowman in SF, there's a world of difference between them and Hawk. Of course, there's a difference between them and most other LB's in the league, but not as stark as the contrast here.
I don't care whether Hawk goes or stays, but if the Packers defense is going to evolve, it's going to require upgrades at 3 out of 4 positions. Perry may or may not upgrade one of them, but the point remains the same.

quote:

Originally posted by TimthePackerFan:
Isn't Hawk leading the Packers in tackles?

•Has either led the team or finished second in tackles in five of his six seasons in Green Bay.
•Has appeared in 94 of a possible 96 regular-season games in his career, starting 91 of them.
•Missed his first-ever games in 2011 after suffering a calf injury at Detroit in Week 12.

...even the worst defense in the NFL has to have a leading tackler...really doesn't mean he is any good! What frustrated me is that even when we had RB's stopped, they still gained 2 more yards. Hawk just isn't a "hitter" like Bishop is.

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I watched Hawk on several stunt blitzes last night (where he cris crosses with the other LB) and the fact that he didn't even come remotely close to getting real pressure much less sack Stafford is pretty amazing and leaves you dumbfounded how he can be that inept.

On the bright side, he's not Zombo.

Jarrett Hawk or A J Bush.

Barclay is a road grader. Perfect compliment with Sitton.

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Originally posted by RatPack:
Jarrett Hawk or A J Bush.

Barclay is a road grader. Perfect compliment with Sitton.

....do we then move Bulaga to left tackle next year?

Tauscher's endorsement carries some weight with me.

Beluga to LT next year. Newhouse to backup where he belongs.

Bulaga to left guard and Lang to center? Sherrod/Newhouse best man wins.

Ted's almost certainly going to add at least one if not two draft picks to the mix next year as well.

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Originally posted by packerboi:
Williams gives up six inches in that matchup, but his vertical leap makes up for some of that and his ability to play the ball helps as well.

Tramon has something like a 42" vertical.

Yeah I give major props to Barclay for stepping up. It's funny how he's kind of viewed as this longshot UDFA, but when you look at his resume it shouldn't be really surprising he's playing well. He was a 3 year starter at West Virginia, one of the most prolific running and passing teams in the nation, at LT and a 3rd team All-American his senior year. He seems like a classic player who put together a solid college career only to have his size and/or physical skills doubted and going undrafted. It's amazing he wasn't drafted at all.

The thing I've been so surprised with Barclay is his run blocking. Coming from West Virgina and the way their offense works, I expected a quick, undersized pass blocker who didn't offer more as a run blocker than just getting in someone's way.

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Originally posted by FLPACKER:
...Hawk just isn't a "hitter" like Bishop is.

Bishop hits like a truck, but covers like one too. Unfortunately for the Packers, Hawk just covers like one.

My only complaint about Barclay against the Lions was that he was totally unaware of the T-E stunts they ran at him. When his DE crashed down inside, Barclay went right with him and let the DT loop around and have a free run at the QB. Saw it several times.

There was one time where Barclay was getting help from a RB. They double teamed the DE and the Packer RB road the DE inside and all three of them ended up on the ground while Suh looped around and was untouched to the QB. That one was not really Barclay's fault because the RB was blocking so aggressively that he pushed Barclay to the ground.

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•Missed his first-ever games in 2011 after suffering a calf injury at Detroit in Week 12.

That's one thing about Hawk that you know the coaches love. The guy shows up to play every damn week. He's the definition of consistency at an important position. He'll never live up to his draft slot but you can do a lot worse than AJ Hawk.

Anytime the biggest positive for a starter, not to mention the captain of your defense, is availability and "Well we could do a lot worse!", it's time to find someone else.

I re-watched the game last night focusing on the line play (both sides) and saw a very good performance from Barclay. He did have a little trouble with the stunts, but it appeared he was knocked off balance when the DE came inside - he should be able to improve there. I was surprised that EDS actually had a good game overall other than two instances where he just got mauled by Fairly. Newhouse had a tough game and was beat often by Vanden Bosch and Jackson allowing pressure on almost every pass play. Saturday had an okay game, nothing of note one way or the other in the passing game. Sitton was very consistent and blocked well int he passign game.

for the OL and Rip Van Roten in the run game. Green was patient last night and waited the extra split second for the block to engage before cutting/hitting the hole. Harris left some yards on the field as he ran into the blocks instead of waiting for the hole to open a bit more - kind of what Green was doing earlier this season.

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Originally posted by FLPACKER:

quote:

Originally posted by TimthePackerFan:
Isn't Hawk leading the Packers in tackles?

...even the worst defense in the NFL has to have a leading tackler...really doesn't mean he is any good!

The thing is, Packers aren't the worst defense in the league, they are actually pretty good. So Hawk leading in tackles does mean something. What it means to me is that he is assignment sure, sees the plays in front of him, and pursues well. The problem I see with him, and it seems this has been his problem for a few years now, is that he waits for the play to come to him instead of attacking. When he does attack he makes plays close to the LOS. He's not fast, but I don't think they need him to be a speed guy in the middle...

You don't want your middle linebacker to hang back as a safety valve. Hawk does that a lot, lets himself get pushed back five to ten yards, watching the play develop, then joins in the tackle. I'll bet if he was timed in a 40 now he wouldn't break 5. Maybe the reason he shows up every week is he makes less hard contact than anyone else. I don't dislike Hawk and always wish him well - and yes, he does show up, but I admit, sometimes I wish he didn't. I'd take a flyer on Francois. He's a beast on special teams and may be suffering from the same thing as Bishop early in his career, not being given an opportunity. When he did play last year he was damn good. He was criticized for a few things, but I felt it was nitpicking. Imagine if they nitpicked Hawk? I just don't understand how he doesn't get criticized more often. Devon House is getting criticized today for a missed tackle and getting picked on a three yard touchdown pass. Hawk has ten of those a game.

There are entire threads - several of them, in fact - dedicated to nothing but criticizing Hawk. There are several others that were started to discuss completely separate topics that wound up as 'AJ Hawk sucks' threads - this being another one. Do a search and you'll see. Stating he doesn't get criticized enough is simply not factual. He's one of the team's official whipping boys here.

Hawk is obviously not a game changer, but folks seem to remember that one INT Francois had last year and as a result assume he's the next Bishop. Other than that and a few other plays, though, Francois sucked. There's a reason GB has gone through about 3435345 ILB's and none of them have been Francois. The bottom line is that Bishop and Hawk were a very good tandem, and losing Bishop hurt Hawk's approach as much as anyone's.

Either way, Hawk won't be back next year - not at that salary, at least, so everyone can breathe easy and look forward to the day in the next few months when he's sent packing. Then it'll be time to find a new whipping boy - always an interesting process here.

Barclay's struggles on stunts are IMHO simply a matter of experience. He's going to get better with more games.

Leading the team in tackles is like leading the team in carries at RB. Yeah, it means something, but not much. Someone has to lead the team and chances are it's going to be the guy at ILB/MLB because he has the most chances to make a tackle. Hawk also has 1 sack, 3 tackles for loss for 6 yards, no passes defensed, no interceptions, no forced fumbles and no fumble recoveries. That is a stunning lack of impact plays.

Hawk is what he is: an average, stable ILB that doesn't really make any impact plays. You can win with him (as we've seen) but if this defense wants to be great, it'll take a better ILB than Hawk.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:
Barclay's struggles on stunts are IMHO simply a matter of experience. He's going to get better with more games.

Agree. I was happy to see that in just his second game, his biggest problem is one that is 100% correctable.

Also I've heard the Packers have an excellent OLine coach so we should see steady improvement in Barclay's development.

Campen is the AJ Hawk of OL coaches.

I've loved the way Gnarls Barclay has stepped up, and he might have already staked his claim as the best mauler on the line in the run game. He still looks a bit suspect in pass pro, but has held up with the plentiful help Mike has given him.

That's why even if Mike goes against the wishes of all Pack Nation and puts Lang back at RT, I hope he's at least learned the value of not leaving backup tackles on an island.

Hate to look at next year in the thick of the playoff race, but calls for Barclay at starter might be a bit premature. I full expect Newhouse to grab some pine, but in favor of Sherrod.

Zomboya is the official 2012 whipping boy

It's always a white guy, isn't it?

Racists.

Yes, multiple threads turn into Hawk bashing, and it is tiring, but what is concerning is that he doesn't get criticized by McCarthy and his staff. Keeping it in house?... they don't keep it in house when they talk about Finley, or Shields, or other players needing to step up. Yes, Hawk may be gone next year, but this year we have a legitimate shot at the whole thing. Why wouldn't you substitute Francois occasionally in the next three games... just to see? Probably team unity. Probably because Hawk is a nice guy, very popular. But do we really want to see Hawk and Jones guarding the middle of the field against Welker? Or any tight end the Giants send out?... or stuffing the box like they did against Adrian Pederson? Burnett had a great game against Minnesota, two interceptions, seven or eight tackles, and he took crap for missing on two. Hawk leads a charmed life. I'm done bashing, just wish McCarthy would take a look.

Apparently you are forgetting the Bush era

Jarrett Bush has worked his way out of whipping boy status...or maybe he is just an ass kisser extraordinaire.

Finley just tweeted he is not giving up top billing in the whipping boy dept. just yet.

YOTTO

Finley can't be top whipping boy because deep down inside we all know he can have a monster game. McCarthy is just decoying him until the Super Bowl.

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The guy shows up to play every damn week. He's the definition of consistency at an important position

Consistently bad, yes.

AJ Hawk gave me AIDS.

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Either way, Hawk won't be back next year - not at that salary, at least, so everyone can breathe easy and look forward to the day in the next few months when he's sent packing. Then it'll be time to find a new whipping boy - always an interesting process here.

Has it ever occured to you there is a reason these players become the "whipping boy?"

Bush, outside of the SuperBowl, has been horrendous whenever inserted into the Defense.. Do you defend him too because he has whipping boy status?

It amazes me how fans will defend a players performance simply because he wears the Green & Gold. If Hawk was on CHG or MIN he would be the brunt of every joke.. Since he plays for us, we call him dependable.

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Originally posted by FreeSafety:
I've heard the Packers have an excellent OLine coach so we should see steady improvement in Barclay's development.

quote:

Originally posted by JJSD:
Campen is the AJ Hawk of OL coaches.

James Campen gets mad props around here!