Buck vs Philly

It was 3 fouls on Pressey in a very short time. Even the Celtics homer sites admit they were questionable. 3 fouls in 2:21. None on shooting fouls. 

https://www.celticsblog.com/20...1987-eastern-semi-vs

DJ then drew a key but questionable charging foul on Pressey in the lane for his fourth personal to spark a change in momentum. On the ensuing possession, Sichting took a pass from DJ over the rangy Buck halfcourt press, dribbled hard to the left corner and drilled another huge shot from 17 feet to pull Boston within 110-107 with 4:53 remaining.

Cummings then missed a well-contested lean-in jumper from the left side of the lane, and Pressey committed his fifth foul going for the rebound. Boston was starting to get a foothold. Besides, Milwaukee couldn't continue to keep hitting every shot, could they?

DJ then tried to throw a long entry pass into a posting Bird, and the ball sailed out of bounds. But Pressey, a fine defender who had been stifling Larry well all game, was called for a critical sixth foul since he was holding number 33 around the waist with his left arm. Bird stepped to the line and coolly drained both foul shots to tie the game 113-all at the 2:32 juncture.

With defensive ace Pressey gone and the Celtics having tied the game while the crowd roared, the momentum had swung to Boston.

The watch out for both Middleton and Bledsoe is running down the court and jacking up quick 3s and we saw some of that last night. 

As for Middleton, the biggest change from last year to this year is he’s in better shape and Bud isn’t playing him as much so he’s much more fresh especially in the 2nd half of games. 

That’s the key with this team.  Their depth allows Bud to rest guys like Giannis and Middleton during games and come playoff time I think it will make a huge difference. 

It also frustrates the hell out of opponents because guys like Hill and Marvin Williams and DD and Rolo are starting quality players going up against 2nd or 3rd string guys and unless a team is hitting a ton of outside shots they have no chance to hang with these guys for 4 quarters.  Philly tried (and the refs obliged) but the Bucks came out in the 3Q and put the pedal to the metal and got to a 20 point lead in no time and the way this team plays D you get up by 20 they won’t give up that lead. 

One other stat of note 

The Sixers and Bucks have played 6 times under Coach Bud.   Except for the Xmas Day massacre, Giannis has averaged 39PPG and is shooting almost 58% from the field against Philly.   And we should be afraid of Embiid and the Sixers?  

Until Philadelphia can show they can beat some good teams on the road they are no threat to Milwaukee.  If Simmons is hurt for an extended period of time they are in serious trouble.  They may be in series trouble come playoff time as in one and done. 

I remember that '87 game very well. To put in bluntly, the Bucks got fucked up the ass with no lube. It was very clear the fix was in.

Boneio posted:

Music City posted:

The officiating is the ONLY reason this isn’t a blowout... 

And this my friend is what makes me nervous about winning a championship.  It’s not a question of talent.  It’s what agenda does the NBA have.  Ray Allen was chastised after making comments about the refs back in 2000.  And every player since has been thrown under the bus if they speak out.  What does the league have to hide? Why are the officials above criticism?  And we know the league wants Giannis out of Milwaukee.  I’ll gladly eat crow in June.

Let’s just say it’s the Bucks and Lakers. We’ve seen this movie- LAL gets the calls, Lebron gets his moment, honors Kobe, Lakers get another banner- it’s fate, right? Except one thing... Giannis is a global superstar. In the past, the NBA wanted their stars to be front and center. Who greater than Giannis is there to the future of the NBA? What is the endgame? 

The Bucks in ‘87 and in ‘01 we’re just not marketable compared to Boston/Philly. The Kings the same. The common denominator? No superstars. At least not on the scale of Bird or Kobe/Shaq. 

But Giannis is. Paris proved that. The NBA has no reason NOT to showcase this talent in the Finals. Theoretically, it’s not the same as the Kings. Giannis’ popularity has changed the game. 

If the 76ers “built their team to stop Giannis”, they must be petrified after last night. Giannis put on quite the display - athletic drives, post moves, mid-range, fade always, 3 point range....dear lord. And oh yeah he can defend the rim, control the glass, play lock down defense, and runs the floor like a long legged gazelle. Good luck with that. 

...and he made some impressive passes last night too !!!!!

As for Middleton, He might have been unfairly criticized for being out of shape. Their were reports that he was told to beef up to play the 3 and that wasn’t him. He’s not only gotten in great shape, but he sees the game much better - maybe as said he learned quite a bit while injured. Whatever the case - he’s better. Some guys sign the big deal and coast , he’s done the opposite. 

I’m still not sure it will be the Lakers.  I’m watching them go tooth and nail with Boston and AD has played almost every minute and LeBron isn’t far behind.  By end of the year those guys will be spent or hurt or both.  

Still think it’s the Clippers out of the west 

Watching that same game. EVERY call is going LA’s way. Ridiculous

This is why the Lakers have to be the favorites no matter how well Milwaukee is doing - if they’re getting every call they’re unstoppable.

— Bill Simmons (@BillSimmons) February 23, 2020

Giannis is a global superstar, but if you look at what Middleton has done the last 37 games, he hasn't been talked about enough. 

After he missed time in November, he came back and played 3 games and struggled a little bit to get his legs under him. Since December 1, he's played 37 games. That's not a small sample size. 

In those 37 games he is 298-573 from the floor (52.0%); 98 for 208 from 3 (47.1%); and 114 for 124 from the line (91.9%). 

In 30.4 minutes per game, he's averaging 21.9 points, 6.6 rebounds, and 4.6 assists. 

His per 36 minute averages are 25.9/7.8/5.4. 

There was a lot of debate on this board about the wisdom of giving him the huge contract. I was in favor of it, but only because I didn't think there were any other options for the Bucks. I think I said something to the effect that you have to overpay him because he's at least a borderline all-star and you aren't getting marquee free agent to go to Milwaukee that's even at that level and then Giannis would really have a reason to leave. 

Middleton is playing at the level of a superstar right now. When the Bucks are playing a road game and I'm listening to the home announcers (like the Pistons last week), every time he goes to shoot they are like "does he ever miss?" 

If Middleton continues to play at this level, the Bucks are going to be really tough for anyone to beat no matter how Bledsoe shoots in the playoffs. 

All fans are to greater or lesser degrees guilty of rooting for laundry, but not to the level of the Lakers or Clippers fans. That is they just root for the color of the jersey. The Lakers and Clippers are basically adult AAU teams that just happen to be playing in LA at this point. 

I think the best part of being a fan is to follow a team for years, suffering through the challenges along with your favorite players, and that makes it that much better when they do win. If you win a title like that, decades from now you go to games with your grandkids and tell them about when Giannis looked like a string bean 18 year old and people wondered why the Bucks would waste a draft pick on a guy who had never played about the second level in Greece. Or how Middleton (who is as close to a Buck for life as a guy can get without being drafted by the team) was a end of the bench throw-in in the Knight-Brandon Jennings trade after he played 475 minute in his rookie year as a Piston and you watched him work his ass off to develop into an all-star level player over 7 years. 

If I was a Raptors fan last year, I would think the title would be somewhat bittersweet. You'd love cheering for Lowry and Van Vliet, but Kawhi was obviously the  key guy and he sat out more than 25% of the games the only year he played for them. He probably spent less than 8 months living in Toronto in a rental. I'd have wanted to win it with DeRozan and Lowry. If the Raptors would get by the Bucks this year, I would think that would be 10 times more meaningful. 

The Lakers have two guys that have played more than the last two years with the team and they've only been there 3 (Kuzma and Caruso). The key guys are all mercenaries who LeBron recruited. The Clippers are basically the same way. 

What drives multigenerational fanbases and stability in attendance and ratings are guys like Duncan, Kobe, Reggie Miller, Lowry, Giannis, Middleton, Bird, Magic, M. Jordan (forget the Wizards years), D. Robinson, Stockton/Malone. That's when ratings are at their best. 

MichiganPacker2:
Middleton is playing at the level of a superstar right now. 

Bingo!

An optimistic projection for the Bucks is fantastic.  Before the Middleton signing, the Bucks were resigned to NOT being a team with a superstar duo as no one could reasonably be projected to be superstar player B.

Middleton is absolutely playing at that level.

To me the other main issue is Giannis and his outside shooting.  I did not see the game, but saw highlights which included I believe 4 jumpers, 2 or 3 of them turnarounds.  If Giannis has that as a consistent shot at a decent frequency, he goes from great to legendary.

The potential upside for this team is very high indeed.

MichiganPacker2,

Thanks for your posts on the 1987 game with the Celtics.  It is a crime that a team like the Bucks coached by Nelson would be the recipient of such a shaft.  Bob Ryan, Boston Globe columnist whose forte is basketball likened those Bucks teams to the student in class who gets the absolute most out of his abilities and gets B's.  He just can't quite compete with the likes of the Celtics, Lakers, and 76'ers.  Though at times the Bucks did (4 game sweep of Boston!).

I did not realize Pressey picked up 3 fouls in quick succession.  That makes me want to puke.

Of course, I hated the Celtic's teams, but as it is so long ago, I have acquired a huge fondness for Larry Bird.  It is something that so many seem to forget how great his game was.  I recently watched a one hour youtube video on him.  My, was he good!

The video included a quote that I'll give as a trivia question.  Name Players A, B, and C.  Player C is the guy who did the quote.

“[Player A] was a debate. He still is. People ask me all the time who my top five players are and when I start saying [Player A], they interrupt me. They say, ‘you’ve got to be kidding me. He can’t play with [Player B].’ I tell them, ‘You guys don’t get it. [Player A] is far better than any small forward who played the game.’”
    - [Player C]

Packdog posted:

This is why the Lakers have to be the favorites no matter how well Milwaukee is doing - if they’re getting every call they’re unstoppable.

— Bill Simmons (@BillSimmons) February 23, 2020

That right there is spot on.  I could see a scenerio that the Bucks would not only have to battle the Lakers (assuming they get that far) but also the refs.

Nick Nurse was asked recently what he thought and he gushed about the Bucks and how good and deep they are and with Middleton and DDV taking a step forward they really present some issues for teams. 

What’s crazy is Brook Lopez is shooting almost 5% below his career average from 3 and if he figures it out I can’t see them losing in a series.   It also looks like Wes Matthews got out of his slump as he’s shooting 41% from 3 the last 10 games. 

Tschmack posted:

Nick Nurse was asked recently what he thought and he gushed about the Bucks and how good and deep they are and with Middleton and DDV taking a step forward they really present some issues for teams. 

What’s crazy is Brook Lopez is shooting almost 5% below his career average from 3 and if he figures it out I can’t see them losing in a series.   It also looks like Wes Matthews got out of his slump as he’s shooting 41% from 3 the last 10 games. 

The Bucks and Raptors series went 6 games. The media narrative has become that the Raptors blew the Bucks out. 

You know what the overall score was in regulation of the games? (I didn't count t the two overtimes in Game 3). 

624-624

That's with 

1. Van Vliet going nuclear

2. Mirotic completely becoming unplayable

3. Bledsoe struggling 

4. DDV not playing at all. 

5. Giannis missing FTs

Compared to last year, the Bucks have essentially swapped out the minutes from Malcolm Brogdon, Tony Snell, Mirotic, and Tim Frazier for minutes from DDV, Matthews, Robin Lopez, Kyle Korver, and Marvin Williams. Brogdon was good, but that's a lot more matchup flexibility and defensive intensity overall. 

The Raptors have swapped out Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green for Anunoby, Hollis-Jefferson, and Terrence Davis. Enough said. 

Siakam has continued to ascend to be a top 10 or 15 player in the league, but for the Raptors to win a 7 game series with the Bucks, Siakam would at least have to play Giannis to a standstill. 

Just for shits and giggles I went back and looked at the Toronto series and a few things jumped out to me. 

Van Vleet shot 57% from 3.  That’s insane.  Lowry, who is a career 36% shooter from 3, hit 47% in the series.  Marc Gasol shot 42% from 3 and that’s 6% better than his career average.  As a team the Raptors shot almost 38% from 3 against the Bucks.  Plus the Raptors averaged 107 PPG in the series!! 

On the flip side, Bledsoe shot 17% from 3.  Mirotic was 19% from 3.  Ersan was 27% from 3.   Lopez was 30% from 3.  As a team the Bucks were 31% from 3.   

The other factor was Giannis played 38.5 minutes per game.  Middleton was 37 minutes per game.  They got worn out and beaten up.  

Hill was the only player in that series that played worth a damn and it took some historically good 3 point shooting from a few of the Toronto players to advance. 

Fast forward to this year.  No Kahwi, less minutes played for Milwaukee’s 2 best players, no Mirotic, no Brogdon, but DDV who is similar, plus Korver, Rolo, Wes, Marvin W and do we really think Bledsoe can play that badly again?   

Tschmack posted:

Van Vleet shot 57% from 3.  That’s insane.  Lowry, who is a career 36% shooter from 3, hit 47% in the series.  Marc Gasol shot 42% from 3 and that’s 6% better than his career average.  As a team the Raptors shot almost 38% from 3 against the Bucks.  Plus the Raptors averaged 107 PPG in the series!! 

On the flip side, Bledsoe shot 17% from 3.  Mirotic was 19% from 3.  Ersan was 27% from 3.   Lopez was 30% from 3.  As a team the Bucks were 31% from 3.   

 

Van Vliet shooting 57% from 3 for the series is insane enough, but it's even more insane than that. 

If you look at the 10 games he played from the beginning of the Sixers-Raptors series to Game 3 of the ECFs, he had gone 3 for 25 from 3. In other words, he was shooting a high volume of 3s at a MUCH lower percentage than Bledsoe or Mirotic ended up shooting. Then, in Games 4-6, he shot 14 for 17 from 3. One of the three misses was a contested 30 footer at the end of a quarter.

A guy goes from almost singlehandedly shooting them out of the Sixers series (3 for 24 from the floor and 1 for 14 from 3) and being awful the first three games against the Bucks (4 for 20 and 2 for 11), to literally not missing (14 for 16 from 3 if you eliminate the end of quarter heave). He basically ended up shooting 3s at the percentage of what Brogdon or Middleton would shoot from the FT line. 

Lost in the discussion of last year vs Toronto- other than George Hill and Ersan Ilyasova (the previous year with Philly) no other player on the Bucks roster had ever been past the first round of a playoff series. It was evident- the moments were bigger than they were.

They got their taste last year. As shown by their play, they’re locked in now. 

Toronto is actually shooting the 3 pretty well this year including Van Vleet.  Still, he shot almost 20% better than this year and I’d love to know the statistical probability of that scenario.  It would be like Giannis hitting 50% from 3 over 6 games.  Possible, but not very likely.