Bucks currently winning as the 2nd winds down, 50-48
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Dame leading Bucks scoring with 16. Giannis has 13, Lopez and Trent Jr have 10 each. Pritchard leads Boston scorers with 19. Prince and Ajax have 3 fouls each, for the Bucks.
Old Bucks fans may have noticed former Bucks guard, Sam Cassell, from the Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen Bucks era team, on the Celtics bench as an Assistant Coach.
Boston takes the lead on 2 Brown FTs. 60-58.
Payton Pritchard has torched the Bucks tonight. Bucks down 8 going to the 4th.
Ref Tony Brothers not afraid to blow the whistle.
Bucks now down 13 and this is almost over.
Giannis struggling to start the 4th.
The real problem is how pathetic the Bucks bench is. Once you get by Portis, assuming Middleton comes back, the Bucks top 6 is good. Taurean Prince is a borderline NBA player and he's your 7th guy. However, the rest of their roster from 8-15 might be the worst in the NBA. It was pretty apparent when their bench units got blown off the floor during the preseason against other team's bench units.
@mrtundra posted:Ref Tony Brothers not afraid to blow the whistle.
That offensive foul on Giannis was a ridiculous call. The Bucks are getting boat raced, so it doesn't really matter.
Pat Connaughton was big for them in the 2021 title run, but he's about 3 levels beyond washed up right now.
Giannis air balls a FT.
Connaughton is almost helpless at this point. I don't get why Rivers plays him in place of giving some minutes to one of the younger guys.
Holiday can apparently grab guys setting screens and push guys with impunity on defense. It was great when he was a Buck, but it's clear he gets away with a lot of stuff other guys don't because of his defensive reputation.
Idiotic for Doc Rivers to be playing Giannis over 40 minutes in an October game on the second of a back to back.
The Bucks contending window is over anyway, but wearing him out to lose by 15 in the 4th game of the year is just stupid.
You know it's over when the announcers start with the "It's a long season" talk.
@mrtundra posted:Holiday seals the coffin with that 3.
The coffin was sealed when Jon Horst blew up the Bucks after the 2023 season. Firing Bud to hire a complete idiot as coach and then go to Doc Rivers (why not just keep Bud?). The Holiday trade looked good on paper for Lillard, but it clearly gutted their identity and chemistry.
I would guess this ends with Giannis being traded in the offseason.
How does Horst still have a job? He completely ruined this team.
IMO, if Giannis gets traded, that will be the last time anyone talks about the Bucks being contenders without a complete team overhaul, for a long time.
@mrtundra posted:IMO, if Giannis gets traded, that will be the last time anyone talks about the Bucks being contenders without a complete team overhaul.
Part of it is the way the NBA works. It's designed to tear down title teams with the salary cap rules.
But part of it is that the Bucks draft picks have been awful for a decade plus. They traded away a lot of them for Holiday and then Lillard, but you'd think just by chance they'd get one or two guys that can actually play in the NBA.
They got Brogdon and then traded him for a pick that was part of the gigantic package they gave up for Holiday. They got DDV and then traded him for a washed up Ibaka. Other than that, nothing. This has resulted them being old and decrepit. Trent Jr. is 25. The entire rest of the rotation will be older than 29 at the end of the year. Lopez, Lillard, and Middleton will be 36, 35, and 34 in 2025.
Giannis turns 30 in December. He is not going to be a player that will age well. He's not going to all of sudden learn how to shoot from the outside. They have to trade Giannis and Lillard while they can get something for them and then wait (perhaps decades) for the next superstar.
This is the MO of Wisconsin sports teams. We get a superstar that wins an MVP or two, occasionally we get one title, and then the rest of their career is a disappointment where the post season is concerned. It happened with Favre and Rodgers, with Braun and Yelich, it’s happening now with Giannis.
The Bucks were just another fart in the wind. They were a strong defensive team. Then Horst blew it up. We have no depth in part because of one piss poor move after another, and we’ve traded away virtually every draft pick for the next five years. For any other team, that would be a devastating loss. For the Bucks? Not so much. We don’t draft worth a shit, anyway. I can’t recall another team that continually face planted in the draft, year after year, the way the Bucks have. Their ability to identify talent in the draft is laughably bad.
We keep relying on Khris Middleton, who is always recovering from some surgery, and acquiring Lilllard was the final nail in the coffin. I’m a 53 year old cripple with a bad back and surgically rebuilt left leg, and I could play better defense than him. I’d certainly give a better effort than he would.
Giannis will demand a trade, and he should. This franchise is one giant clown car. I’d rather he go to a team that can put the pieces around him to make another championship run, because it sure isn’t coming here.
@mrtundra posted:IMO, if Giannis gets traded, that will be the last time anyone talks about the Bucks being contenders without a complete team overhaul.
It will be like 2003-2013 all over again.
@lambeausouth posted:This is the MO of Wisconsin sports teams. We get a superstar that wins an MVP or two, occasionally we get one title, and then the rest of their career is a disappointment where the post season is concerned. It happened with Favre and Rodgers, with Braun and Yelich, it’s happening now with Giannis.
The Bucks were just another fart in the wind. They were a strong defensive team. Then Horst blew it up. We have no depth in part because of one piss poor move after another, and we’ e traded away virtually every draft pick for the next five years. For any other team, that would be a devastating loss. For the Bucks? Not so much. We don’t draft worth a shit, anyway.
We keep relying on Khris Middleton, who is always recording wrong from some surgery, and acquiring Lilllard was the final nail in the coffin. I’m a 53 year old cripple with a bad back and surgically rebuilt left leg, and I could play better defense than him. I’d certainly give a better effort than he would.
Giannis will demand a trade, and he should. This franchise is one giant clown car. I’d rather he go to a team that can put the pieces around him to make another championship run, because it sure isn’t coming here.
Lillard made it to one conference title in his time in Portland, but he's an empty points kind of guy. He'll average in the 30s for an 8th seed, but as you say, is never going to give you the effort on defense you need to win a title. His idea of defense is to force a guy off the 3 point and give up the lane at will to give up 2 points so he can try to score 3 at the other end. In terms of effort, I'd settle him for to at least get his body in between his defensive assignment and the rim. He often just stand there and looks disinterested while letting his guy go right by him for a putback.
I’m not sure what to think of the Bucks at this point.
What I do know is they’ve gotten old and slow in a hurry and there’s no easy or magical fix. They don’t have really any levers to pull to improve because of their cap situation and lack of draft picks. Bottom line, they are stuck, for better or worse.
The good news is if they did decide to blow things up they could choose to reset the franchise with a good haul of picks and players for guys like Dame and Giannis. Lopez will clear the books after this year, with Middleton coming off after next year assuming he opts in (why the fuck wouldn’t he). Portis will almost certainly opt out after this year. He can make a lot more than 13M on the open market. Pat C is washed but thankfully will be gone after next year.
The Bucks will very much end up with 1 title - although - had Middleton not gotten hurt in 2022 they probably get another one and if they had Holiday instead of Bledsoe in 2019 that’s another one that year as well.
The real question is if they choose to pull the plug at the deadline or wait until the offseason. Either way, by this point next year I expect a complete overhaul. You get enough picks for Dame and Giannis and it gives them ammo to retool but it also means we are likely to return to basketball wasteland for the near future barring another Giannis hit in the draft type miracle.
@Tschmack posted:The real question is if they choose to pull the plug at the deadline or wait until the offseason. Either way, by this point next year I expect a complete overhaul. You get enough picks for Dame and Giannis and it gives them ammo to retool but it also means we are likely to return to basketball wasteland for the near future barring another Giannis hit in the draft type miracle.
The underlying problem in all of this is that they will be trading Dame and Giannis to teams that will get better just from the fact they will be getting Giannis or Dame. The current Bucks team is likely to be flirting with the playin rounds, but the Bucks are not going to completely tank because Giannis and Dame are too good to fall below a 6 or 7 seed. The teams they go to, will be at worst, in the same position, so the picks you get back aren't likely to be high lottery picks.
The problem with trading them is that the Bucks don't control their own first round pick until 2031. If you traded Dame for some young talent or picks, Giannis being on the team keeps them from bottoming out. That's the best route to keep them semi-relevant and competitive and get some youth into the roster. But if you do that, Giannis is definitely going to want out.
If you trade Giannis (even with Dame on the team), I doubt the Bucks would win 25 games. If you trade both, they become the 2023-24 Pistons. But New Orleans or Portland gets their lottery pick. And unlike the Lakers or some other free agent destinations, even when Middleton and Lopez also come off the books and they could sign a max free agents, no one decent is coming to Milwaukee. You might get a younger Middleton type if you overpaid for a good player and gave them a max contract. That's probably what they'll do because they have no incentive to tank, but it locks you into trying to get the 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs as your ceiling for the next decade.
One scenario I’ve seen is Giannis to Golden State for Kuminga, Podziemski, Wiggins, Jackson Davis, 2027 and 2029 first round picks.
Not sure that’s enough, but if the picks are unprotected I fully expect Golden State to not be very good at that point (especially 2029) so they could be worth a lot. Pods and Jackson Davis are young, cheap, intriguing players and Wiggins is expensive but is a 20PPG guy and signed for this year and next two. I’d rather have another pick than Kuminga as his deal expires after next year.
Then you turn around and trade Lillard and my guess is you could get at least a solid player and a couple of picks in return. Or a couple of solid players and a pick in return. Ideally, you want more picks to restock.
Middleton and Lopez and Pat C are off the books by end of next year so they clear a bunch of salary as well to add a guy or two. The Bucks will have to overpay, but dealing Giannis and Dame should net you an absolute haul.
Another option is just trading Dame. The issue there is you need players and not picks and long term I don’t know if that’s the best strategy either.
The team simply needs to get younger and more athletic but there’s no way to do it without making bold moves.
@Tschmack posted:One scenario I’ve seen is Giannis to Golden State for Kuminga, Podziemski, Wiggins, Jackson Davis, 2027 and 2029 first round picks.
Not sure that’s enough, but if the picks are unprotected I fully expect Golden State to not be very good at that point so they could be worth a lot.
Then you turn around and trade Lillard and my guess is you could get at least a solid player and a couple of picks in return. Or a couple of solid players and a pick in return. Ideally, you want more picks to restock.
Middleton and Lopez and Pat C are off the books by end of next year so they clear a bunch of salary they as well to add a guy or two.
No one wants that Wiggins contract for one thing.
The other thing is that despite the limitations of the Bucks current roster, the situation in Golden State is almost as bad, if not worse. Giannis isn't going to win anything there either.
Curry turns 37 this year. Dame is 34. Neither one can really guard anyone at this point.
Draymond Green has been washed up for 2 years and he's just cashing checks right now. He can't space the floor at all and would almost be unplayable next to Giannis in any lineup due to floor spacing issues.
Buddy Hield is another starter and definitely spaces the floor, but he can't guard anyone either.
The problem in terms of return for the Bucks is that while Curry will probably be retired by 2027, Giannis would still be only 32 and the Warriors would be a very popular free agent destination for a max player once Steph and Draymond were off the books. The Bucks would basically end up with Kuminga, Ponziemski, and a bunch of crap (not drafting better than about 16 or 18th at best).
Sheesh boys......seasons over already eh?
@Boris posted:Sheesh boys......seasons over already eh?
No. I'll still watch, but they've had an entire offseason and training camp this time around to improve some things and the same issues that occurred all last year are still happening. I think their days as a true title contender are probably over. It's just the nature of how things work in the NBA.