The epidemic of coaches wanting to be the smartest guy in the room continues.
@michiganjoe posted:Thought the second-half Lions resembled the second-half Packers last week- moment appeared too big during crunch time. Lion fans are like all other NFL fans- they love the aggressiveness from Campbell as long as it works.
Being over the top aggressive and having balls the size of King Kong is a good thing at times.
But, in certain situations its ok to take the boring FG. You are up big on them at their stadium so its ok to take the points.
It's interesting to see a soul crushing NFCC game playoff loss from a different perspective for once. Everyone in Michigan this morning has the same expression - like they just smelled the worlds' nastiest fart. It's miserable enough living here, but today is on a whole different level.
The playoffs have a way of showing you who the teams really are. They all inevitably are distilled to their true identities. Was anything really out of the ordinary in how all the games played out the last couple weeks? Weaknesses are laid bare, strengths win games.
That said, SF f'ed around but didn't find out. You can do that vs. young inexperienced teams like DET and GB but still come out on top when you have 8 all pros on your roster surrounded by many more really good players. They won't be able to do that vs. KC.
I knew KC's D was good and playing well, but I did not expect BAL to be almost completely stymied. Lamar almost never had a clean calm pocket and KC's run D did enough to keep BAL's strength in check. Lamar was having an MVP quality year and that team's only losses were by one score with 2:00 or less left in the games. If it weren't for a rookie WR acting like he actually never had been there before, they may have won. Or KC/Reid/Mahomes are all too seasoned to have ever really let that happen.
You have to credit KC's front office for recognizing the fact that if they couldn't give their QB enough top receivers, they had to back him up with a really good D. They have learned that both from NEP/Brady and GB/AR.
@The Heckler posted:Being over the top aggressive and having balls the size of King Kong is a good thing at times.
But, in certain situations its ok to take the boring FG. You are up big on them at their stadium so its ok to take the points.
I don't disagree with your larger point but it's who Campbell is and how he's coached all year. He even suggested the possibility of diapers for Lion fans nervous about his coaching style.
I wonder how that Lions fan who got the huge Lions Superbowl championship tattoo before the season started is feeling.
@Boris posted:They didn't find a way to win .....the other team blew it and had many opportunities to put them away but.....it's more fun to go for it on 4th down! Not these boring FGs
The fact that Campbell was not consistent with the situation is also an issue. The media is saying he is, but he went for it on 4th and 3 twice in the second half from around the 20 or 30. If you convert you still have to get the ball into the end zone on a subsequent play.
If you are really going to go for it on 4th down all the time, why not go for it on 4th and goal from the three in the first half with 7 seconds left? At least if you convert there, you know you score a TD.
Campbell kicked the FG at the end of the half because he probably felt that going into the locker room up 21-7 would be a let down and give the Niners momentum. But, then going for it on 4th and 3 from the 28 wouldn't be? It was the same situation except 8 minutes later in game time.
I haven't seen anyone ask Campbell about this.
@michiganjoe posted:I don't disagree with your larger point but it's who Campbell is and how he's coached all year. He even suggested the possibility of diapers for Lion fans nervous about his coaching style.
It's not the nerves they need nappies for, it's for watching their coach send their team down the drain for his own ego.
@MichiganPacker posted:Campbell kicked the FG at the end of the half because he probably felt that going into the locker room up 21-7 would be a let down and give the Niners momentum. But, then going for it on 4th and 3 from the 28 wouldn't be? It was the same situation except 8 minutes later in game time.
I haven't seen anyone ask Campbell about this.
They mentioned it on Sirius XM....
The FG's don't guarantee the win but you keep putting pressure on the Niners to score. Maybe they still would have...who knows....but Campbell never even gave his team the chance to find out.
It's ok to be conservative some times and put points on the board. Campbell has no clue when to pull the reins back on the horse. Momentum is a real thing and by not kicking the FG from the 30 yard line, he brought the fans back into the game.
The one thing I'll say is the Lions had excellent play calls with Reynolds dropping 2 crucial plays. This is the problem with "going for it". Lombardi famously said...."When passing the ball 3 things can happen and 2 of them are bad."
Fandame mentioned it earlier....In the first half....you were shoving the ball right down the Niners throat with your fantastic O-Line and they had no answer for it. Limit possessions and keep putting points on the board.....yes even FG's makes a gigantic difference.
But hey.....I call em the "Lie-Downs" for a reason. Lions gonna lion 🦁 🤭
Lions with a chance for a field goal to go up by 17 points. 3 min 56 sec later, it's tied. 🤦♂️
— Strumbling (@Strumbling) January 29, 2024
@MichiganPacker posted:Campbell kicked the FG at the end of the half because he probably felt that going into the locker room up 21-7 would be a let down and give the Niners momentum. But, then going for it on 4th and 3 from the 28 wouldn't be? It was the same situation except 8 minutes later in game time.
Or perhaps confidence in his kicker was a factor. Big difference between two kicks from around 45 and a chip-shot FG.
@michiganjoe posted:Or perhaps confidence in his kicker was a factor. Big difference between two kicks from around 45 and a chip-shot FG.
Seriously....the guy is a decent kicker. Made a 50+ yarder vs the Rams and they won 24-23 to open the playoffs.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/playe...3052/michael-badgley
Since joining the Lions he was perfect on FG's and for his career 37/48 from 40-49 yards. The kick is the better option...in this situation to put yourself back up by 3 possessions and deflate the crowd.
@MI PACK posted:It's interesting to see a soul crushing NFCC game playoff loss from a different perspective for once. Everyone in Michigan this morning has the same expression - like they just smelled the worlds' nastiest fart. It's miserable enough living here, but today is on a whole different level.
Luckily I live on a MI/WI border city just 1 hour north of Green Bay so the Packer/Lions fan ratio is 70/30, and that’s being very conservative, I feel it’s probably closer to 90/10, but the few fans I do run into were doing nothing but gloating this past week, it is so nice that they got the dicks slapped right out of their mouths
@YooperPackfan posted:... I feel it’s probably closer to 90/10, but the few fans I do run into were doing nothing but gloating this past week,
Seems like it was always about 90/10 for the UP except for the Mooch period.
The amount of dumbassery on display in both title games was astounding!
@Boris posted:They mentioned it on Sirius XM....
The FG's don't guarantee the win but you keep putting pressure on the Niners to score. Maybe they still would have...who knows....but Campbell never even gave his team the chance to find out.
It's ok to be conservative some times and put points on the board. Campbell has no clue when to pull the reins back on the horse. Momentum is a real thing and by not kicking the FG from the 30 yard line, he brought the fans back into the game.
I agree that the FGs won't guarantee anything but like you said it puts pressure on the SF offense and the increased possibility Purdy could turn it over. Also, not a guarantee but it would have turned up the pressure on them. So to me in a way that is being aggressive and making them keep up.
As MichiganJoe said that is who Campbell is and how he coaches and I do give him credit for sticking by who he is. But I have to wonder if the players will eventually get POd because they are losing games by making these choices.
🤭
Don’t worry Detroit. You’ll still raise a banner for this.
— Andy Herman (@AndyHermanNFL) January 29, 2024
@The Heckler posted:I agree that the FGs won't guarantee anything but like you said it puts pressure on the SF offense and the increased possibility Purdy could turn it over.
Bingo. The game is 100% different if the score is 27-10. You would have matched the Niners opening 3rd quarter drive and forced THEM to "go for it" thereby increasing the likelihood the Niners make the fatal mistake. THAT IS aggressive!
Purdy had already thrown 1 INT and had a couple other INT worthy plays. The dude is a shrimp and Purdys biggest plays were with his legs....not his arm.
Agreed with this. 49ers deferred at the beginning to have the chance to get back-to-back scoring chances bridging halftime. Lions ended the half with a FG, 49ers got a FG to start the 3rd, so it was already a wash. To get another FG would have given the Lions the advantage with those wrap-around possessions (plus one possession).
As was mentioned last week - take the points in the playoffs!!
Campbell's reasoning for staying aggressive is probably that he trusts his guys to make the plays. The players could be blaming themselves more than their coach for coming up short, right or wrong. You have to look at how each play played out - was the D in a position to give the play zero chance for success or did a player miss an assignment, drop the ball, make a bad read, etc?
Niners are so fucking lucky. Both Det and GB handed them wins in games they got outplayed.
Vs Det - 2nd half starts, what should have been a pick ends up being a 50 yarder caught off a dudes facemask? Come on. Next series a fumbled hand off. Not to mention Campbell being a worse game manager than MM.
Vs GB - Savage.
So, of course what will happen now....is Niners completely outplay KC and blow them out.
Even with the 4th down decisions and the fumble on the handoff, the main contributor to the Lions loss was Josh Reynolds, who had two absolute brutal drops. One was on the 4th down play when they were up 14. If he catches it, the Lions have the ball inside the 20 with 1st and 10. Even if they don't get another first down, if he catches it they run another 2 minutes off the clock and kick a short FG to go up 17 with under 5 minutes left in the third.
The other drop was right after the Niners tied it at 24. The Lions had 3rd and 9 and Reynolds drops a perfect pass that hits him in stride at the 40 that would have resulted in at least a 15 yard gain. If he catches it, the Lions at least get to the beginning of the 4th quarter with the game tied. Just that extra time to catch their breath and regroup would have been huge.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6YL7RIHj1tc
Josh Reynolds has a history of drops in key games. This is from the Patriots-Rams Super Bowl when he was with the Rams (with Goff throwing to him). This was in the first quarter with the game still tied and forced a punt from deep in their own end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTsWkGmesQI
The key thing here was that the Lions ended up going to Reynolds in both of these situations. The Lions have Pro Bowl level (or almost Pro Bowl level) guys at TE (Laporta), WR (St. Brown), and RB (Gibbs and Montgomery). Jameson Williams is arguably a better player than Reynolds. The Lions and Rams schemes resulted in the plays going to the Lions 6th best offensive skill position player and he had critical drops twice.
Reynolds did score later in the game when it really didn't matter, but that's what good schemes do - they make you win by having your weakest player make a play. It's like attacking D. Savage if you playing the Packers when you really need a play. You play the odds. Just like when the Ravens needed a stop on the final contested play yesterday, the guy that had the best matchup for the Chiefs and ended up open was MVS. He made the catch falling down, but the Ravens would do the same thing again rather than having Kelce, Rice, or Pacheco beat them.
@The Heckler posted:I agree that the FGs won't guarantee anything but like you said it puts pressure on the SF offense and the increased possibility Purdy could turn it over. Also, not a guarantee but it would have turned up the pressure on them. So to me in a way that is being aggressive and making them keep up.
As MichiganJoe said that is who Campbell is and how he coaches and I do give him credit for sticking by who he is. But I have to wonder if the players will eventually get POd because they are losing games by making these choices.
Like that Chargers HC who got fired.
@MichiganPacker posted:Even with the 4th down decisions and the fumble on the handoff, the main contributor to the Lions loss was Josh Reynolds, who had two absolute brutal drops. One was on the 4th down play when they were up 14. If he catches it, the Lions have the ball inside the 20 with 1st and 10. Even if they don't get another first down, if he catches it they run another 2 minutes off the clock and kick a short FG to go up 17 with under 5 minutes left in the third.
I don't disagree with your take on this, but I also think you can't assume they kick the FG in that scenario.
Nothing suggests Coach Meathead would have taken that option in this specific game.
In summary, I admire Campbell’s guts but football is about situational awareness, especially in do-or-die playoffs. Even more so if your coach is an all gas no brakes one trick pony.
Football is also a game of inches and sometimes you come up short, especially with a young team. At least the refs didn’t decide the game.
Any cliches I missed?
@GreenBayLA posted:In summary, I admire Campbell’s guts but football is about situational awareness, especially in do-or-die playoffs. Even more so if your coach is an all gas no brakes one trick pony.
Football is also a game of inches and sometimes you come up short, especially with a young team. At least the refs didn’t decide the game.
Any cliches I missed?
You can only take it one play at a time
It was do or die right there
someone I would want in my fox hole
Great point on Campbell. It is a good thing sometimes to be all aggression but there are times where you should stop and think about it for a second.
I work with a few Lions fans and they wouldn't even speak of it yesterday and only did so today. One guy said his dad is in his mid 70s and has been waiting since he was a kid for the Lions to get this far with a real shot at winning it. Only to have the most Lion thing possible to happen.
Being aggressive 100% of the time will never work....neither will being conservative 100% of the time.
@MichiganPacker made a great point earlier....you're at the 30 yard line. Even if you convert the 4th down, you still have work to do.
If you work it closer, let's say you stall at the 12 yard line....then you kick the FG anyway?!?! Ok you took some more time off the clock but the end result is the same. It makes no sense....I said it at the time and I'll live and die on that hill.....the correct decision at the time with the situation and information we had AT THE TIME no hindsight necessary.....KICK THE FUCKING FG!! Even if he misses it, it's no different than a dropped pass on 4th down ....WTAF man?!?! This ain't the Vikings this is the fuckin Super Bowl!
...and then....none of that bullshit INT bouncing off the face mask and ending up caught by Aiyuk...none of that shit happens. Why? Because after you MAKE the FG, you kickoff and that shrimp doesn't have the arm strength to make a shot play like they did at midfield.
Plus you deflate the crowd by matching the Niners FG and STAY up by 3 possessions. 3 possession leads are gigantic
@GreenBayLA posted:In summary, I admire Campbell’s guts but football is about situational awareness, especially in do-or-die playoffs. Even more so if your coach is an all gas no brakes one trick pony.
Football is also a game of inches and sometimes you come up short, especially with a young team. At least the refs didn’t decide the game.
Any cliches I missed?
Something about a goose and a gander?
I want to know what his players really think about those fourth-down decisions; what are they saying behind the scenes to a trusted person? "Oh, yeah. I agreed with going for it." or "Fu**in' dude lost us a trip to the Super Bowl." I think it's going to be the latter, especially as we get further away from the game itself.
Depends on the real reason the 4th down plays failed. If the D anticipated correctly and had those plays shut down then they could say the play caller and HC were to blame. If someone missed an assignment, made the wrong read or just dropped the ball, they could say it was the players' fault.
@Fandame posted:I want to know what his players really think about those fourth-down decisions; what are they saying behind the scenes to a trusted person? "Oh, yeah. I agreed with going for it." or "Fu**in' dude lost us a trip to the Super Bowl." I think it's going to be the latter, especially as we get further away from the game itself.
All evidence seems to point that they are on board. So far.
By the way, drops, a fumble and a pretty good opponent had a hand in keeping them from winning.
The truth always comes out Fandame....players move to other teams....we'll find out eventually
The truth always comes out Fandame....players move to other teams....we'll find out eventually
@Pikes Peak posted:By the way, drops, a fumble and a pretty good opponent had a hand in keeping them from winning.
All true, it's not just the potential FG's. Kickers can miss too,
I sure would've liked to see what the Niners would do if they were down by 3 possessions late in the 3rd Quarter or potentially early 4th quarter. Does Purdy throw more INT's? Or does he turn into Joe Montana?
would like a word with you.@Boris posted:The truth always comes out Fandame....players move to other teams....we'll find out eventually
Especially since Campbell says he doesn't regret the decisions. He and the players say that it comes down to execution, bu it comes off like he's blaming the players for the plays not working and they're willing to shoulder the blame. For now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, one thing Campbell may not take into account is that other teams have a whole lot of film of the Lions' fourth-down catalog. Against GB, the STs said they knew it was going to be a fake punt because of film study. On both fourth downs in SF, every receiver was covered right from the snap and Goff had to hold the ball, allowing the DL to move him off his spot. And Goff sucks throwing off spot. Basically, the Niners knew what was coming.
@Fandame posted:Basically, the Niners knew what was coming.
That's right....forced Goff to throw to Reynolds who is clearly their worst WR and he dropped the ball ... TWICE. The Niners were like.....if we're going to lose, it's going to be THAT guy that beats us.
....and that folks.....is why you kick the fucking FG to go up by 3 possessions. 🙂
You’d think he would have noticed that our failed fourth down attempt spurning a field goal cost us the game.
The Lions were trailing 34-24 when they got the ball back after a 49ers touchdown with just over three minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. They had all three timeouts remaining and were able to quickly move down the field without using any of them. Detroit got all the way to the San Francisco one-yard line and called a run play on 3rd-and-goal with 1:05 remaining. David Montgomery was stuffed for a two-yard loss.
Because they were trailing by two scores, the Lions had to use a timeout to stop the clock after Montgomery was stopped. They went for it on fourth down rather than kicking the field goal, and Jared Goff threw a touchdown pass to Jameson Williams.
On Monday, Campbell admitted that he “probably should have” called a third-down pass play on Detroit’s previous possession rather than running it.
“The easy thing to do is to throw it,” Campbell said, via Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press. “Probably should’ve been the right thing, but for me, I wanted to run it. I thought we would just pop it. We had just…two-minute all the way down the field, throwing the football and they were in a four-down front and I believed we’d walk right in and we just missed a block, so then yeah, I’ve got to use a timeout. So, hindsight, throw it four times, but I believed in that moment it was going to be a walk-in run. And it didn’t work out. So, I gambled and lost.”
Courtesy
https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl...9ers/s1_127_39891831
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Yeah Mr. Meathead.....you did that a LOT on Sunday and never seemed to learn from it. Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
You just keep doing that in 2024 bro-ham.... especially against the Packers.