Ah yes, the amateur draft pickers telling the pros how it is...everyone has their different opinions and that's fine, it just seems like some people think they know everything and that if Ted Thompson doesn't follow their plan, he's an idiot.
If you think you know more, seriously, go put your resume in or start your draft-picking site and put it up for everyone to see. If you're better than Ted Thompson, celebrate and tell everyone you knew so and so was a better pick than whom the Packers selected.
You can't be serious.quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
I really don't think Thompson stopped to look at WHO was still on the board. Things just happened so fast.
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
My criticism:
[SNIP]
tlc
Thank God! I've been waiting all morning.
quote:Why do I say that? Well, within a matter of a few minutes the deals were done. I really don't think Thompson stopped to look at WHO was still on the board. Things just happened so fast
Boy,
I think my criticisms are well founded and I provided GOOD reasons why I believe the trade-downs were a BAD idea. If you guys don't agree that's fine, go ahead. But I feel like I'm being treated poorly in here and there is a strong "homerism" among the crowd. Hey, if you don't want to listen to pretty solid critism, fine. We'll see how the players I liked will do and we'll see how the extra picks pan out. The chances were simply BETTER with the 36/37 picks and the players still available. Sorry you guys disagree, but I think I'm on pretty reasonable ground in this criticism.
And yeah, I speculated as to why Thompson would be so STUPID to pass on 1st round talent at two picks and trade down "as planned". There is no doubt the trades were planned ahead of time. I speculated that maybe Thompson didn't look at who was there at the picks before pulling the trigger. Maybe he was on the phone too much, hell, I don't know but you guys quote me like that was the whole point and it wasn't. If all you guys can do is quote me on the speculation but ignore the MEAT of my criticism it shows the stupidity in here and the sentiment about me in here. Piss off with that stupid crap. I'm sick of it. I came here for a serious discussion, not to be ridiculed. I think there is a more constructive way to disagree with me than to resort to childishness and that includes you scoop.
tlc
I think my criticisms are well founded and I provided GOOD reasons why I believe the trade-downs were a BAD idea. If you guys don't agree that's fine, go ahead. But I feel like I'm being treated poorly in here and there is a strong "homerism" among the crowd. Hey, if you don't want to listen to pretty solid critism, fine. We'll see how the players I liked will do and we'll see how the extra picks pan out. The chances were simply BETTER with the 36/37 picks and the players still available. Sorry you guys disagree, but I think I'm on pretty reasonable ground in this criticism.
And yeah, I speculated as to why Thompson would be so STUPID to pass on 1st round talent at two picks and trade down "as planned". There is no doubt the trades were planned ahead of time. I speculated that maybe Thompson didn't look at who was there at the picks before pulling the trigger. Maybe he was on the phone too much, hell, I don't know but you guys quote me like that was the whole point and it wasn't. If all you guys can do is quote me on the speculation but ignore the MEAT of my criticism it shows the stupidity in here and the sentiment about me in here. Piss off with that stupid crap. I'm sick of it. I came here for a serious discussion, not to be ridiculed. I think there is a more constructive way to disagree with me than to resort to childishness and that includes you scoop.
tlc
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
Bottom line is that Thompson screwed up. He had two first round rated talents at picks 36/37 but didn't stop to see that, he quickly did the deal he set up ahead of time before he even looked at who was on the board! Big mistake and he will regret it.
tlc
Good grief man, it's one thing to disagree with a pick or two, but this is just nuts. Are you saying you want our GM to make picks based on how players are rated by national draft guys rather than his own scouting department? Justice fell another 10 picks, because of off-field concerns.
The idea you think he didn't even know who was available when he traded - give me a break.
edit: I'm sorry you don't like what people quoted from your post, but that's the thing that leaps out - you think the GM didn't know who was on the board when he traded out of a pick. Your speculation strikes people as nuts and that's why you got called on it. Maybe you think something else was the "MEAT" of your criticism, but I'd say the idea that the GM ignores the draft board when he trades down is as substantial as criticism gets.
As for the trade downs "obviously planned ahead of time"? The Patriots traded up for a certain player; they didn't know ahead of time he'd be there. The trade down with the Rams - how could the Rams have known we'd have the 37th pick until we actually acquired it from Denver, moments earlier. Geez.
For whatever reason he didn't care about getting Chad Jackson or Justice. Disagree with that, fine. I at least wouldn't give you any heat for that. It's the righteous speculation that grates on people, I think.
Well done, Max. Us stupid homers thank you.
TLC- I couldn't care less how "your players" fare versus those that TT picked. Your reasons as to why TT passed on them are not "pretty solid" IMO. And simply because TT went a different direction he's labeled "STUPID". Get off your high horse!
TLC- I couldn't care less how "your players" fare versus those that TT picked. Your reasons as to why TT passed on them are not "pretty solid" IMO. And simply because TT went a different direction he's labeled "STUPID". Get off your high horse!
quote:Originally posted by missingU92:
Well done, Max. Us stupid homers thank you.
TLC- I couldn't care less how "your players" fare versus those that TT picked. Your reasons as to why TT passed on them are not "pretty solid" IMO. And simply because TT went a different direction he's labeled "STUPID". Get off your high horse!
Again, how we twist and turn what tlc "said". I never said there were solid reasons as to "why" Thompson passed on picking these players and traded down anyway. That's my whole point. There are no solid reasons. What I said was "solid" argument was that there were 1st round rated players at our initial 2nd round picks and Thompson "blew it" by passing on them and thus losing value. That IMO was a solid point I made. The reasons as to why are unknown. He didn't get value for Walker and he didn't get value when he traded down and passed up 1st round talent. I think he blew it. That's my opinion and that opinion is backed by pretty good analysis.
tlc
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:quote:Originally posted by missingU92:
Well done, Max. Us stupid homers thank you.
TLC- I couldn't care less how "your players" fare versus those that TT picked. Your reasons as to why TT passed on them are not "pretty solid" IMO. And simply because TT went a different direction he's labeled "STUPID". Get off your high horse!
Again, how we twist and turn what tlc "said". I never said there were solid reasons as to "why" Thompson passed on picking these players and traded down anyway. That's my whole point. There are no solid reasons. What I said was "solid" argument was that there were 1st round rated players at our initial 2nd round picks and Thompson "blew it" by passing on them and thus losing value. That IMO was a solid point I made. The reasons as to why are unknown. He didn't get value for Walker and he didn't get value when he traded down and passed up 1st round talent. I think he blew it. That's my opinion and that opinion is backed by pretty good analysis.
tlc
"Solid points" don't come from your opinion and that's all your "solid" argument is based on.
Max cuts right through any of your explanations by correctly saying that TT would be nuts if he listened to draft pundits. I'm pretty damn sure he's making his own board.
Max also hit the nail on the head with his last sentence. Leave out the "I think part.
Nice third person reference.
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
he traded down and passed up 1st round talent.
tlc
Obviously he didn't pass up first round talent because the talent that you liked went in the second round. There must be reasons why every team passed them up in the first.
quote:Originally posted by muddysboy:quote:Originally posted by R MaN:
Clayton: Packers 'losers'
In his initial reaction of winners and losers, ESPN.com's John Clayton put the Packers in his list of losers.
Clayton's reasoning: "They didn't get great value for Javon Walker, only getting a second-round choice instead of two seconds, which they were demanding Friday. While A.J. Hawk was a great choice to help the defense, the Packers didn't do much to help Brett Favre. They didn't get tight end Vernon Davis, but that's OK. Hawk rated higher on most draft boards than Davis. The Packers had a decent second-round for the future in getting tackle Daryn Colledge and wide receiver Greg Jennings, who might take some time to make impact. But this is Favre's last year, and he is committed to making the best out of the season. As it has been the entire offseason, the Packers haven't seized the moment."
Does this guy have any sort of a clue?
I like Clayton, but he is the one that doesn't get it.
Walker - TT, I read somewhere, touched base with the guy and it didn't fly. So we got rid of a locker room cancer, a guy coming off a major injury, a guy that had one year left on his contract. A guy that perhaps would have come back for the remaining six games and that was it. We got a very high two for him and then dealt that. McCarthy doesn't need the headache, the distraction, of an unhappy camper.
Hawk - Favre is no factor to TT - he is building with defense. It's not about providing Favre with weapons for his last season. It's about building a solid foundation and winning with defense and a running game. If anything, he's building with Rodgers in mind, not Favre. It's not about "seizing the moment" as Clayton wrote. When you're 4-12 and have gutted the roster, there is no seizing the moment. You build.
Jennings - So most of us haven't heard of the guy. Since when does name recognition translate to success in the NFL. Let the guys that scout do their jobs - not how many times we fans have seen a Florida receiver on television rather than Eastern Michigan State Polytech Trade School.
I'm not a TT fan but I could change my mind after this weekend. From all accounts, the players drafted are intelligent, dedicated football players. Read various bios on these guys and see how many times the phrases "smart football player", "loves the game", "hard-working, high-effort", "tough and a team leader" pop up. It's clear to me what TT is doing - surrounding himself with quality guys with which to build a solid foundation so that he can win with defense and the ground game.
Look what TT has done with the OL. With few exceptions, he has collected guys that can play multiple positions. Look at the defense, he's building up the middle with a NT, two LBs and a saftey. I have blasted TT as much as anyone has, but I think the light bulb just went off with me on what he's doing. No more Cletidus Hunts. No more malcontents. Tough, smart guys that want to play and appreciate the game. Team leaders, high-character guys. Just plain, old football players.
At least that's my take on it, IMHO and for what it's worth.
Great post....thanks!
Why should anyone care what Clayton thinks. He covers all 32 teams, so his actual knowledge of the Packers' roster is limited. I'm guessing that most people on this board know the Packers a heck of a lot better than he does. Well, "most" probably isn't true. I'll change that to "quite a few". Without naming names (starts with a "s" ends with a "r"), there are some really clueless people here.
My analysis,
Day one has to include the Walker deal and whether it was good value. Add to that we have to include the deal-down that involved the 36/37 picks. I happen to believe he got poor value on both trades.
Now, I'm not dumping on the picks Thompson made. They were quality picks for the draft position they were selected in.
What I am upset about is getting only HALF the value of a player like Walker and passing on Chad Jackson and Winston Justice at the 36/37 picks when they BOTH were ranked by many scouts as 1st rounders. Mock after mock had Justice going between #8 and #17 in the first round and had Jackson going between #18 and #25. To have those guys at picks 36 and 37 and to have a need for both positions is a priceless opportunity to literally get two mid 1st round talents! The Eagles jumped on Justice a few picks after the ones we traded. New England snatched Chad Jackson with quickness at our #36 pick so they knew what was up. Thompson obviously didn't.
Both trades based on the value of who we gave up (Walker, Jackson, and Justice) vs what we got (Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Rodgers, Blackmon, and Jolly). Which group would you SERIOUSLY want to have? Let's not pretend here. Thompson f'd up and f'd up pretty badly. Not to mention we should have been able to nab a conditional pick in the future based on Walker's performance.
Let's compare tat for tat just for sh!ts and giggles:
Jennings vs Jackson. Jennings will never equal the quality or ability of Jackson. Sure I'm no crytal ball but I think it's a pretty safe bet that Jennings is more likely to be a career punt returner and #4 WR and Jackson has at least a legit shot to be a quality #2 WR if not a star.
Justice vs Colledge & Spitz. Justice was a 1st round rated LT. That is a hell of a bigtime player that you just don't give up. Colledge and Spitz are going to be dime a dozen interior lineup you can find littered throughout the draft. Sure, they can turn out to be solid interior guys but if Justice turns out to be a solid starter at LT, we lost on this one and I think it's far more likely on odds that Justice will out-value both Colledge and Spitz as a duo.
Walker vs Rodgers, Blackmon and Jolly. I think it's obvious by now and any level headed thinker must be really starting to "get" what I'm talking about. These trades and what we gave up is simply too much and what we got won't equal it.
Based on these factors, I give Thompson a C-. He simply gave up too much to get what he got in this draft. The only thing that saves him from a worse grade is that his picks were solid.
tlc
Day one has to include the Walker deal and whether it was good value. Add to that we have to include the deal-down that involved the 36/37 picks. I happen to believe he got poor value on both trades.
Now, I'm not dumping on the picks Thompson made. They were quality picks for the draft position they were selected in.
What I am upset about is getting only HALF the value of a player like Walker and passing on Chad Jackson and Winston Justice at the 36/37 picks when they BOTH were ranked by many scouts as 1st rounders. Mock after mock had Justice going between #8 and #17 in the first round and had Jackson going between #18 and #25. To have those guys at picks 36 and 37 and to have a need for both positions is a priceless opportunity to literally get two mid 1st round talents! The Eagles jumped on Justice a few picks after the ones we traded. New England snatched Chad Jackson with quickness at our #36 pick so they knew what was up. Thompson obviously didn't.
Both trades based on the value of who we gave up (Walker, Jackson, and Justice) vs what we got (Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Rodgers, Blackmon, and Jolly). Which group would you SERIOUSLY want to have? Let's not pretend here. Thompson f'd up and f'd up pretty badly. Not to mention we should have been able to nab a conditional pick in the future based on Walker's performance.
Let's compare tat for tat just for sh!ts and giggles:
Jennings vs Jackson. Jennings will never equal the quality or ability of Jackson. Sure I'm no crytal ball but I think it's a pretty safe bet that Jennings is more likely to be a career punt returner and #4 WR and Jackson has at least a legit shot to be a quality #2 WR if not a star.
Justice vs Colledge & Spitz. Justice was a 1st round rated LT. That is a hell of a bigtime player that you just don't give up. Colledge and Spitz are going to be dime a dozen interior lineup you can find littered throughout the draft. Sure, they can turn out to be solid interior guys but if Justice turns out to be a solid starter at LT, we lost on this one and I think it's far more likely on odds that Justice will out-value both Colledge and Spitz as a duo.
Walker vs Rodgers, Blackmon and Jolly. I think it's obvious by now and any level headed thinker must be really starting to "get" what I'm talking about. These trades and what we gave up is simply too much and what we got won't equal it.
Based on these factors, I give Thompson a C-. He simply gave up too much to get what he got in this draft. The only thing that saves him from a worse grade is that his picks were solid.
tlc
Justice was probably off a lot of team's boards, including ours, because he pulled a gun on another student in college (3 years probation) and solicited a prostitute. I'm not going to judge him, but that's probably why he fell to where he did. The Eagles didn't care, clearly some teams, maybe Green Bay, did.
Green Bay certainly knew Chad Jackson was on the board. Saying they "obviously" didn't is, again, speculation on your part and to my mind unfair. Say our GM didn't pick the guy you wanted, fine. Suggesting he's totally incompetent, which you are, is what is annoying. If he wanted the guy, he wouldn't have traded out of the spot. It's entirely possible, likely in fact, that TT knew who the Patriots were trading up for (to get ahead of Denver and take Jackson), and didn't care, because he didn't want Jackson. If he turns out to be wrong, so be it, but your belief that Jackson could be a star is as optimistic as his view may be pessimistic.
Disagree with him for not wanting Jackson or Justice, fine. Suggest he "obviously didn't know what was up," and yeah, you're going to get some criticism.
Green Bay certainly knew Chad Jackson was on the board. Saying they "obviously" didn't is, again, speculation on your part and to my mind unfair. Say our GM didn't pick the guy you wanted, fine. Suggesting he's totally incompetent, which you are, is what is annoying. If he wanted the guy, he wouldn't have traded out of the spot. It's entirely possible, likely in fact, that TT knew who the Patriots were trading up for (to get ahead of Denver and take Jackson), and didn't care, because he didn't want Jackson. If he turns out to be wrong, so be it, but your belief that Jackson could be a star is as optimistic as his view may be pessimistic.
Disagree with him for not wanting Jackson or Justice, fine. Suggest he "obviously didn't know what was up," and yeah, you're going to get some criticism.
Everyone knows depth is what's important. TT wants depth. You (tlc) want stars. While I still supported Mike Sherman in what he was trying to do and what hethought best, he didn't draft for depth. And that is what cost us a 4-12 season last year. If you want that, a 5-11 or 6-10 year with a team of a few stars fine, knock yourself out. I'll take a 9-7 or 10-6 team that makes the playoffs in a weak division any day. Who knows, that team may get hot at the right time and win it all.
quote:Originally posted by ammo:
Everyone knows depth is what's important. TT wants depth. You (tlc) want stars. While I still supported Mike Sherman in what he was trying to do and what hethought best, he didn't draft for depth. And that is what cost us a 4-12 season last year. If you want that, a 5-11 or 6-10 year with a team of a few stars fine, knock yourself out. I'll take a 9-7 or 10-6 team that makes the playoffs in a weak division any day. Who knows, that team may get hot at the right time and win it all.
Sounds more like name recognition than "stars".
1. We could have had Jackson over Jennings. But that could have screwed up the Walker trade though. I think Devner would have held off on the trade if they felt that we were committed to trading him at some later point. As it turned out, it looked like they wanted Jackson and then scrambled to get Walker after he was drafted and they realized Walker was the next best option. TT initiated that scramble. So the NE trade leads to the Walker trade and we end up at 37 with nothing we really want. TT obviously has some "reach" picks here that he knows he will be able to get later so he starts trading down so he can afford to take some gambles.
2. The biggest complaint I'm seeing from Packer fans is passing on the chance to go ahead and take Chad Jackson themselves. Well, I'm sorry while he may wind up being a solid player for someone someday, his skill set does not match with Green Bay. TT knows what Sherman never could figure out. Smurfs and guys whose best traits are blazing speed do not thrive in Green Bay. Think Ahmad Carrol. Why, November and December in the NFC North that's why. Sure a guy like Jackson might help us win a game in the Metrodome, but he'd disappear at Lambeau, Soldier Field and anywhere else where the track slows down as winter sets in. Notice the Pack started to fare better in Minneaplois under Sherman but we were losing at home suddenly? Meanwhile under Wolf we never could crack the dome jinx, but we were built for where it mattered...Lambeau.
Check out Chad Jackson's strengths and weaknesses...
Strengths- body control, downfield threat, speed
Weaknesses- blocking ability, route-running skills
Those weaknesses are the exact primary needs of a west coast offense WR and especially one that expects to hold up on bad turf. And while speed and downfield ability is great to have in a WR it is always negated in bad weather. Sherman liked to throw it up for grabs and attack downfield, that's why Walker had success. But it also had a lot to do with Favre's high INT total. Under MM, were going back to short, crisp routes where Favre's completion % will rise and INT rate will drop back to respectability. Sherman would have taken Jackson. TT and MM know he doesn't fit true Green Bay Packer, west coast, grind it out, and get dirty football. If we played our home games in a dome, I'd be all over picking a guy like Jackson. His strengths just would be negated at Lambeau while his weaknesses are exactly what GB needs in a WR.
Not having guys like Jackson might have been the primary reason why we couldn't win at Dallas, St. Louis, or Minny in the mid 90's. But at the same time, having a team built for Lambeau, got us to two Super Bowls in the mid 90's.
2. The biggest complaint I'm seeing from Packer fans is passing on the chance to go ahead and take Chad Jackson themselves. Well, I'm sorry while he may wind up being a solid player for someone someday, his skill set does not match with Green Bay. TT knows what Sherman never could figure out. Smurfs and guys whose best traits are blazing speed do not thrive in Green Bay. Think Ahmad Carrol. Why, November and December in the NFC North that's why. Sure a guy like Jackson might help us win a game in the Metrodome, but he'd disappear at Lambeau, Soldier Field and anywhere else where the track slows down as winter sets in. Notice the Pack started to fare better in Minneaplois under Sherman but we were losing at home suddenly? Meanwhile under Wolf we never could crack the dome jinx, but we were built for where it mattered...Lambeau.
Check out Chad Jackson's strengths and weaknesses...
Strengths- body control, downfield threat, speed
Weaknesses- blocking ability, route-running skills
Those weaknesses are the exact primary needs of a west coast offense WR and especially one that expects to hold up on bad turf. And while speed and downfield ability is great to have in a WR it is always negated in bad weather. Sherman liked to throw it up for grabs and attack downfield, that's why Walker had success. But it also had a lot to do with Favre's high INT total. Under MM, were going back to short, crisp routes where Favre's completion % will rise and INT rate will drop back to respectability. Sherman would have taken Jackson. TT and MM know he doesn't fit true Green Bay Packer, west coast, grind it out, and get dirty football. If we played our home games in a dome, I'd be all over picking a guy like Jackson. His strengths just would be negated at Lambeau while his weaknesses are exactly what GB needs in a WR.
Not having guys like Jackson might have been the primary reason why we couldn't win at Dallas, St. Louis, or Minny in the mid 90's. But at the same time, having a team built for Lambeau, got us to two Super Bowls in the mid 90's.
Clayton = modern day Don Knotts
quote:Originally posted by Slobknocker:
1. We could have had Jackson over Jennings. But that could have screwed up the Walker trade though. I think Devner would have held off on the trade if they felt that we were committed to trading him at some later point. As it turned out, it looked like they wanted Jackson and then scrambled to get Walker after he was drafted and they realized Walker was the next best option. TT initiated that scramble. So the NE trade leads to the Walker trade and we end up at 37 with nothing we really want. TT obviously has some "reach" picks here that he knows he will be able to get later so he starts trading down so he can afford to take some gambles.
2. The biggest complaint I'm seeing from Packer fans is passing on the chance to go ahead and take Chad Jackson themselves. Well, I'm sorry while he may wind up being a solid player for someone someday, his skill set does not match with Green Bay. TT knows what Sherman never could figure out. Smurfs and guys whose best traits are blazing speed do not thrive in Green Bay. Think Ahmad Carrol. Why, November and December in the NFC North that's why. Sure a guy like Jackson might help us win a game in the Metrodome, but he'd disappear at Lambeau, Soldier Field and anywhere else where the track slows down as winter sets in. Notice the Pack started to fare better in Minneaplois under Sherman but we were losing at home suddenly? Meanwhile under Wolf we never could crack the dome jinx, but we were built for where it mattered...Lambeau.
Check out Chad Jackson's strengths and weaknesses...
Strengths- body control, downfield threat, speed
Weaknesses- blocking ability, route-running skills
Those weaknesses are the exact primary needs of a west coast offense WR and especially one that expects to hold up on bad turf. And while speed and downfield ability is great to have in a WR it is always negated in bad weather. Sherman liked to throw it up for grabs and attack downfield, that's why Walker had success. But it also had a lot to do with Favre's high INT total. Under MM, were going back to short, crisp routes where Favre's completion % will rise and INT rate will drop back to respectability. Sherman would have taken Jackson. TT and MM know he doesn't fit true Green Bay Packer, west coast, grind it out, and get dirty football. If we played our home games in a dome, I'd be all over picking a guy like Jackson. His strengths just would be negated at Lambeau while his weaknesses are exactly what GB needs in a WR.
Not having guys like Jackson might have been the primary reason why we couldn't win at Dallas, St. Louis, or Minny in the mid 90's. But at the same time, having a team built for Lambeau, got us to two Super Bowls in the mid 90's.
Right on, Slobknocker
quote:Originally posted by The Crusher:
Whatever tlc, Collins was rated in the 5th round and we took him in the 2nd.
I say stick the ratings where the sun don't shine.
So if he was 5th round projectedly why didn't he trade down then? Can you say hello....McFly...
Collins was a good pick but do you honestly think he couldn't have moved down twenty picks then? Not trading down and having one player in mind is what Sherman did. Have backup plans and other players then having a Hardy for one.
And Slobknocker, my biggest beef with TT was passing on a #1 corner in Jimmy Williams. Jennings will probably turn into a solid player and I feel he was/is better than Moss.
quote:Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:quote:Originally posted by The Crusher:
Whatever tlc, Collins was rated in the 5th round and we took him in the 2nd.
I say stick the ratings where the sun don't shine.
So if he was 5th round projectedly why didn't he trade down then? Can you say hello....McFly...
Collins was a good pick but do you honestly think he couldn't have moved down twenty picks then? Not trading down and having one player in mind is what Sherman did. Have backup plans and other players then having a Hardy for one.
And Slobknocker, my biggest beef with TT was passing on a #1 corner in Jimmy Williams. Jennings will probably turn into a solid player and I feel he was/is better than Moss.
I seem to remember more than one GM saying that if TT had passed on Collins with our 2nd round pick, they would have picked him in the 2nd round last year. So no, Collins most likely wouldn' have lasted 20 more picks.
quote:Originally posted by PackerPride:quote:Originally posted by GratefulPack:
I totally agree with Clayton. Trading down for Jennings when they could have taken Jackson has me scratching my head. Neither guy was going to replace Walker, but Jackson had the chance to make the most immediate impact.
I firmly believe you cannot grade a draft until 3 years at least, but it bugs me that TT continuously traded down and down. I think the last trade, he didn't even get comparable value according to the point chart.
I disagree about the JW thing though, most informed views on this board thought they would never get more than one #2 for JW.
Let me see,,, Stay put Draft Jackson....Or Trade it and Take Jennings and Hodge???
No Brainer in my mind.
My feelings exactly
I'm the first to admit that I don't think we got fair value...but...I do love the Hodge pick. Time will tell, but I think he'll be a force on our young defense.
quote:Originally posted by Wisconsin Johnson:
seemed to remember some GM's
Which GM's? And seemed is about as sure as might've.
Collins was a reach pick at the time.
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:quote:Originally posted by missingU92:quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
Bottom line is that Thompson screwed up. He had two first round rated talents at picks 36/37 but didn't stop to see that, he quickly did the deal he set up ahead of time before he even looked at who was on the board! Big mistake and he will regret it.
I would have liked to see us draft Jackson, but we didn't. I know nothing about Jennings.
Why on earth would you say "TT didn't stop to see that" or made a deal before looking who was on the board? You simply don't know that. Just sour grapes TT didn't follow your "insight".
Why do I say that? Well, within a matter of a few minutes the deals were done. I really don't think Thompson stopped to look at WHO was still on the board. Things just happened so fast.
tlc
Umm tlc, they only had a matter of minutes to get them done!! Picks are timed (just ask the Vikes) Love your criticism of TT though. But that's ok, you'll get over it
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
Piss off with that stupid crap. I'm sick of it. I came here for a serious discussion, not to be ridiculed. I think there is a more constructive way to disagree with me than to resort to childishness and that includes you scoop.
tlc
C ya
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:quote:Originally posted by missingU92:
Well done, Max. Us stupid homers thank you.
TLC- I couldn't care less how "your players" fare versus those that TT picked. Your reasons as to why TT passed on them are not "pretty solid" IMO. And simply because TT went a different direction he's labeled "STUPID". Get off your high horse!
What I said was "solid" argument was that there were 1st round rated players at our initial 2nd round picks and Thompson "blew it" by passing on them and thus losing value.
tlc
Boy, you are so quotable today.
So you thought all the GMs were wrong last year that passed on Aaron Rodgers too? And I can't remember your feeling on that one. Were you complaining because TT took Rodgers with his first pick? (because he was rated higher and must have been a reason he slid that far)
quote:Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
My analysis,
Justice vs Colledge & Spitz. Justice was a 1st round rated LT. That is a hell of a bigtime player that you just don't give up...
tlc
Guys like Dimitrius Underwood and Lawrence Phillips were first round talents too. tick, tick, tick, tick, tick,...
quote:Originally posted by ammo:
TT wants depth. You (tlc) want stars.
Stars like James Lee.
I swear he comes here just to provide us entertainment for a year. Your the GW of the internet BB world tlc.
Henry says thank you for your arrogant, ridiculous commentary.
quote:Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:quote:Originally posted by The Crusher:
Whatever tlc, Collins was rated in the 5th round and we took him in the 2nd.
I say stick the ratings where the sun don't shine.
So if he was 5th round projectedly why didn't he trade down then? Can you say hello....McFly...
Collins was a good pick but do you honestly think he couldn't have moved down twenty picks then? Not trading down and having one player in mind is what Sherman did. Have backup plans and other players then having a Hardy for one.
And Slobknocker, my biggest beef with TT was passing on a #1 corner in Jimmy Williams. Jennings will probably turn into a solid player and I feel he was/is better than Moss.
Hey Biff, other teams wanted him in the 2nd as well and were planning to take him. The draft yappers were wrong, not the GMs.
Clayton molests collies.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:
Hey Biff, other teams wanted him in the 2nd as well and were planning to take him. The draft yappers were wrong, not the GMs.
Henry, what teams? Again, the Packers were not picking high in round 2 so there was not exactly too many teams picking behind them.
Just a little note I've found:
Collins, 5-11 and 201, started one season at free safety and one season at strong safety in the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference but then caught the attention of the Packers with his man-to-man coverage ability playing cornerback at the Senior Bowl."He could actually play corner or in the dime," Sherman said.
Another player from Bethune-Cookman, Rashean Mathis, played both secondary positions in college and was drafted in the second round by Jacksonville in 2003. He has developed into a solid starting cornerback.
Some other teams rated Collins as a second-day selection primarily due to concerns about his mental aptitude. The Packers dispatched new secondary coach Joe Baker to determine if Collins could learn.
So Henry if calling people names makes you feel all tough over the internet so be it.
Collins, 5-11 and 201, started one season at free safety and one season at strong safety in the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference but then caught the attention of the Packers with his man-to-man coverage ability playing cornerback at the Senior Bowl."He could actually play corner or in the dime," Sherman said.
Another player from Bethune-Cookman, Rashean Mathis, played both secondary positions in college and was drafted in the second round by Jacksonville in 2003. He has developed into a solid starting cornerback.
Some other teams rated Collins as a second-day selection primarily due to concerns about his mental aptitude. The Packers dispatched new secondary coach Joe Baker to determine if Collins could learn.
So Henry if calling people names makes you feel all tough over the internet so be it.
quote:Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:quote:Originally posted by Wisconsin Johnson:
seemed to remember some GM's
Which GM's? And seemed is about as sure as might've.
Collins was a reach pick at the time.
This doesn't mention specific GM's, but does lend support to the fact that not all NFL personnel people thought Collins was a reach. It's from a JSOnline post-draft chat w/Bob McGinn in May of 2005:
"A: Bob McGinn - Mike: The chats are not my job. I do these on a very infrequent basis. My job is writing for the newspaper primarily. Some scouts do take me for a ride but I don't think very many. Having said that, I'd never grade a draft afterward. And anyone in the media who does is hopelessly presumptuous. Almost all of these writers, including me, use various draft publications for a basis. If some draftnik doesn't like a player, such as Nick Collins, and he goes in D2, then the writers say it was a reach. What the heck do they know about Nick Collins? Absolutely nothing. But I've found out that some clubs other than GBP really liked Collins. It's a matter of perception. Writers tend to salivate over big-name picks from big-name schools because they might have heard of them. All that post-draft grading is total garbage."
If I can find more specifics, I'll post them.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:quote:Originally posted by ammo:
TT wants depth. You (tlc) want stars.
Stars like James Lee.
I swear he comes here just to provide us entertainment for a year. Your the GW of the internet BB world tlc.
Henry says thank you for your arrogant, ridiculous commentary.
I'll do you one better. Joey Thomas.
quote:Originally posted by Wisconsin Johnson:quote:Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:quote:Originally posted by Wisconsin Johnson:
seemed to remember some GM's
Which GM's? And seemed is about as sure as might've.
Collins was a reach pick at the time.
This doesn't mention specific GM's, but does lend support to the fact that not all NFL personnel people thought Collins was a reach. It's from a JSOnline post-draft chat w/Bob McGinn in May of 2005:
"A: Bob McGinn - Mike: The chats are not my job. I do these on a very infrequent basis. My job is writing for the newspaper primarily. Some scouts do take me for a ride but I don't think very many. Having said that, I'd never grade a draft afterward. And anyone in the media who does is hopelessly presumptuous. Almost all of these writers, including me, use various draft publications for a basis. If some draftnik doesn't like a player, such as Nick Collins, and he goes in D2, then the writers say it was a reach. What the heck do they know about Nick Collins? Absolutely nothing. But I've found out that some clubs other than GBP really liked Collins. It's a matter of perception. Writers tend to salivate over big-name picks from big-name schools because they might have heard of them. All that post-draft grading is total garbage."
If I can find more specifics, I'll post them.
I scratched my head (along with all of Packer Nation) on the Collins pick initially. However, I remember being put at ease with the coverage that came out after - that numerous GMs were interested in Collins in the late 2nd range. The guy down in Dallas, that does the Mock better than anyone, had put Collins in the 2nd right before the draft.
To the talking heads, Nick Collins was a nobody. But to numerous GMs it was a good pick. Need more proof AKA TD, go find it yourself. It's out there. Or call Ted.
Wow, I guess tlc was due for one of his classic meltdowns.
He never fails to produce.
He never fails to produce.
quote:Originally posted by BeerGuy:
To the talking heads, Nick Collins was a nobody. But to numerous GMs it was a good pick. Need more proof AKA TD, go find it yourself. It's out there. Or call Ted.
No, for those making the claim should provide the proof.
It was so easy to rip on ECB on word of mouth but when other people do it?
quote:Clayton = modern day Don Knotts
http://www.uncleodiescollectibles.com/html_lib/misc/00006.html
Wally Cox - Of '70's Game Show, Hollywood Squares fame.
Actually I am happy to hear that so many people on this forum liked this draft. Many here follow college and even the pro game more closely than myself and some may even be smarter 
, so it is nice to hear that many people agree with TT's strategy.
Still, I will admit that many of these moves had me scratching my head and along with tlc and other questioning some moves. Nobody here will know the results of the draft for 3 years and even if it turns out bad, it doesn't mean the strategy was wrong, injuries and dumb luck can be much bigger factors.
I'm ready to move on and see what these guys actually do.
, so it is nice to hear that many people agree with TT's strategy.Still, I will admit that many of these moves had me scratching my head and along with tlc and other questioning some moves. Nobody here will know the results of the draft for 3 years and even if it turns out bad, it doesn't mean the strategy was wrong, injuries and dumb luck can be much bigger factors.
I'm ready to move on and see what these guys actually do.