Dom Capers

Seems to me, since the Packers have the deepest, most talented team  in the NFC both Mike and Dom should be on the hot seat. Anything short of a SB appearance would be a disappointment......

 

So either Dom Capers is good enough to win a SB, because it's happened, and he just hasn't had the talent he had then OR we won a SB in spite of Capers because the talent level was so strong. Either way it comes down to talent. Dom Capers didn't just get lazy or forget how to coach football.

The defensive collapse last year was more or less concurrent with the time Rodgers went down. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Duh.  Capers!  That's why.

What's to figure out ?

 

The Packers 2 best run stoppers, Rodgers and Matthews go down and then the defense struggles stopping the run...seems pretty straight forward.

 

GD- I've never known you to have such an undying dedication to a coach before, creedos for sticking to it.  I hope there is a better argument for keeping Capers around than "he was on a superbowl team once."  If Raji plays better this year, did it mean he had less talent the last couple years, but got it back again, or could it be they are using him different in the scheme? 

 

See, I get stuck on your "it's just a talent thing" argument.  If that was the case, Jim Leonhard wouldn't be in the NFL and Jamarcus Russell would be.  If talent dictates how good a defense is, the Detroit Lions should have the best defense in football.  I think it is possible another guy could get more out of the talent on the Packers right now than Capers can, and I say that based on multiple fails over the last few years.  If Capers is as good (talented) as you say he is, I'd hope for more out of less (and I don't really think he has that much "less" than everyone else.) 

 

Hope I'm wrong. 

 

Certainly having your 2 best players on the field helps.

 

But where GB struggled containing the run was RB's running at the middle of the DL right at a healthy Pickett, Jolly, Jones, Hawk and safeties either responding too late or plain whiffing horribly at tackles taking terrible angles.

 

That very same group was stout against the run, getting penetration, and Jones/Hawk were reading plays correctly and making stops early in the season. In those 1st 5-6 weeks you didn't AJ's classic over pursuing as much. But like usual, he reverted to old habits and you saw the same schit we've seen for years where he's a day late and a dollar short to the pile.

 

Then somewhere in the middle of the season BJ Raji just stopped giving a damn, MD Jennings somehow regresses from pretty bad to outright horrid, McMillen suddenly can't tackle my dead grandmother, and Brad Jones horrible angles come a callin'.

 

One injured defensive player in CMIII causes all that?

 

 

 

 

You're not the only one who can't wait:

second dummest post in this thread

2b

Or not to be.

I think the hang up is that we have different definitions of what talent is. Seems like you're thinking, based on your Jim Leonard vs Fat Russell comparison, that I'm only talking about having physically talented players. No having a bunch of physically gifted players doesn't guarantee anything, if it did then the Lions would have had the league's best D last year. When I talk about having talent, I'm talking about high performing players that are reliable...2010 Cullen Jenkins and 2013 Mike Daniels are good examples of the kind of talent I'm talking about. You don't necessarily think of them as "physically gifted" but they got the job done and didn't make mistakes. I considered Jim Leonard in his prime to be very talented player. I think truly talented players have a mix of physical gifts and all the right intangibles and can be relied on.

Having starters like Andy Mulumba, Nate Palmer, CJ Wilson, MD Jennings, DJ Smith, etc. against teams like SF and Seattle makes life hell for a DC. I'm not surprised that two rookie OLBs couldn't hold containment against Kaeperdick, you can't expect elite performances with that kind of talent.

No losing AR, did that, I think that people underestimated that fact. Not the best idea to run when you are down a couple of TDs in the second half to the Pack with AR

Thanks.  I just don't understand all the angst over something you have no control over. Why not just enjoy the game and move on with life.

I'm still concerned about the defense, this is a message board where we talk about the Packers (defense fits under that umbrella), so I expressed my concern.  Not loaded with angst, still capable of enjoying the season, just concerned and thought I'd talk about it.  If you think the defense is up the challenge, say so and give a reason why.  Part of the discourse of a message board. 

 

If the only conversation you are comfortable with is how things are super-duper, and you respond like you did earlier, then it's probably ok to know it is about the dummest possible response (aside from anything fedya posts) you can put on a message board. 

 

Things that are indicative of good coaching:

1) Motivating players to play with maximum effort (are guys flying to the ball, not staying blocked, etc.)

2) Devise and Implement a system of play that:

    a) Your players can physically execute (don't ask an ILBER to cover a WR) 

    b) Your players can intellectually execute (are coverages so complicated you have WR's running free in the secondary) 

    c) Be flexible enough to defend many different offensive schemes

 3) Preparation for specific opponents

     a) Can you take away some of the things your opponents do best

     b) Take advantage of specific physical matchups that favor your players

 4) Create an atmosphere of accountability in which players believe that if they do not give maximum effort and / or continue to make mental mistakes, they will lose their job ( great clip of Lombardi on sideline telling Marv Fleming (I think) that he is going to lose his job if they don't get a better effort)

 

 

....so how does Capers live up to these? Very difficult to access without being on the inside. I can see both sides of this argument. One thing I do disagree with is that you can't automatically say that he is the best coach for us because he has won a SB. A coach could do a good job with a specific group of players vs. specific teams, but not be able to adjust his system to fit a change in personnel, or opponents strategies. 

     I always try to equate it back to basketball, which I've coached for 30 years. Demanding accountability for effort and concentration, emphasizing fundamentals, and creating good team attitude are things that are consistent every year. However, flexibility in scheme and game preparation vary from year-to-year, opponent-to-opponent. 

 

 

I want domination, demoralization, pure pain from the defense. 

Here's a pretty good article on the defensive issues from last year and I think it'll shed a little light on my comment about losing the 2 best run defenders in Rodgers and Matthews

 

http://archive.packersnews.com...311050338/-1/CHRISTL

 

 

Given all the injuries the defense had, I thought Caper's final performance last year was really good.

The playoff game vs. The Niners. The defense wasn't the problem.

Rodgers even said...our offense lost this game not our defense. When our defense holds the other team to 23, we need to win that game.

This conversation is more about the overall performance of the defense beginning in 2011 until now.

I left out probably the most important talent of a good coach, the ability to teach fundamentals / technique. Every one always busts on MM about "pad level" ...what he is essentially saying is that you can have the correct play called, the best matchup, everything is set up for success, but if one guy uses poor fundamentals (in this case getting too high) the play is blown up. 

Health has had the greatest impact. You simply aren't going to get the same result without your best player and other key role players as you are with them. And now that they have added Peppers, they stand to benefit from that experience and veteran presence.

But I do think this defense in particular is going to play with something to prove. You have a deep secondary and some quality depth up front, now as well. The key guys have to stay healthy, but if they do watch out. They're going to be really tough.

Capers this, Capers that... If you don't have the talent to execute the defense the unit will struggle.  When you have guys like Worthy, Jones, McMillian, Doc Jennings, Wilson and to a much lesser extent Perry and Hawk running around the field and getting significant snaps, you're going to get average to below average results.  

 

With the maturation of guys like Daniels and Hyde, the health of Hayward, and the addition of Peppers and Dix, along with putting guys like Raji back in their natural position, I get a sense that the arrow is point up with this defense.  If we can sprinkle in some production from guys like Boyd, Burnett and to a much lesser extent, Jayrone Elliot, I think there's considerable reason to believe this defense will perform much better than in recent years past.  

 

Of course, the key to any unit is health.  Gotta have it.  

I still say it's time for Datone to start showing something as well

It's been said earlier, but the defense has acquired new personnel, (potentially better talent), and having younger players grow and develop should help.  Health is the key, but I think even a larger factor, and one that's been referred to is the Offense putting up Tecmo bowl #'s.  

 

The Defense will be exponentially better, if the Offense makes the opposing Offense one dimensional, in having to outscore the Packers.  If Rodgers and the O, can't do that, then realistically, the Packers D should be in the Top half of the league with the "talent" they have.  If Rodgers and the O, put up gaudy O numbers, then it's realistic to think that the D will be in the Top 10 of the league.  

 

IMO, it shows how important the O is to take pressure off the D.  The way the team is structured (salary, playmakers, etc)., everything is on the O (besides CMIII), which it should be, since the league and rules favor the O.    

indeed and packer fans want to understand why the D struggled.

As always, its a combination of many things and pulling out one player or coach and laying the blame really doesn't lead to much insight

 

Packer Russ made some excellent comments above and I'll expand on that here

 

Teams played/attacked the non-Rodgers Packers differently and the 2013 team played from behind way more often than ahead. And when opponents are ahead, they tend to run the ball more than when they are trying to keep up with a blazing offense.

GB spent all offseason preparing to play one way, then got hit with a curve ball and had to switch to playing a completely different way on both sides of the ball.

Sort of like trying to change a tire while driving 70 mph...

 

NFL defenses are designed to be complimentary to the offense they support. For example,  Lovie's talented defenses and special teams were a perfect fit for the anemic punt & field position game their offense played for years.

The Packers defense was designed to play with the Packers high-octane offense and when the offense changed so drastically, it forced the defense to do the same. That's not an easy task even if you have all your top guys- without them it became unpossible.

 

The more you understand about how its all intertwined, the more you appreciate the comments from Thompson "Its a hard game"

 

life is hard

I kind of think one characteristic of Caper's coaching is that when he has really good personnel, his defenses are awesome and pretty much better than the defense would be with most any other coordinator coaching it.

 

But, when the personnel isn't that good, his defenses fare rather poorly compared to how other coaches would perform.

OK lemme see if I'm following you here:

 

Great players = awesome defense if coached by Capers

Great players = not so awesome defense if coached by any other DC in the NFL

Bad players = not-so-good defense if coached by Capers

Bad players = not-so-bad defense if coached by any other DC in the NFL

 

Does that pretty much cover it?

Yeah, that is something I think is possible, Shoeless.

 

Exactly.

Let me see how dumb I can make this post. The injuries the past couple years make it difficult at best to make an accurate assessment on how this defense has played. The way the NFL pay scale works these days, the depth after starters go down leaves a lot to be desired. I think the Packers do a lot better than most teams at having players that can at least play because they develop their own guys and don't rely on washed up veterans. 

Looking at this from a brain-based approach...... the goal of practice is to make things automatic.  Automatic is faster than conscious thinking processes.  If a player is thinking too much, they are reacting too slowly.  Lombardi took simple plays and drilled them in to perfection.  Rodgers uses visualization to make different situations on the field more automatic for him, even if he hasn't practiced them with the team.  He's basically creating mental programs that he can initiate when needed.  Less thinking, more reacting.  I've heard many stories of a player in different sports having the flu, like Michael Jordan, and then having one of the best games of their life, because it's harder for the thinking to interfere with their innate ability and reflexes.  And we know Brett Favre has thrown TD passes when being virtually unconscious from a concussion.

 

So Capers complex schemes may be brilliant, but the question isn't if players understand it.  The question is if they have practiced them enough to be able to run the schemes automatically without having to think about it.  If the starters, who are typically brighter and more physically talented to start with, get sufficient practice with them, they can work very well.  But when guys get injured and the replacements don't have the reps, things fall apart.  My understanding is that this season, perhaps with both the offense and defense, they are trying to simplify the complex schemes so that starters can be faster and replacement players don't have to think as much to figure out what to do on the field.  So Capers may be a great coach, not just with top notch players but players who have practiced his schemes sufficiently, but a big failing was his inability to simplify for the replacements (or his simpler schemes just weren't very good).

Sounds like you need a mistress.

Actually, I'd give him another year. DT's are notoriously slow starters.

I hope Dom is prepared for injuries this year, cause they are going to happen.  

They won't have so many injuries if they aren't trying to change a tire while driving 70 mph...

What would he show you and how would you know ?

Did you notice him shooting the gap between the guard and tackle in St Louis ?

Got in the backfield immediately and forced the RB to spin right into Peppers arms.

Pretty good play

 

I'm done arguing about this defense. Either they get it done in 2014, or heads need to roll. End of discussion.

quote:

Rodgers even said...our offense lost this game not our defense. When our defense holds the other team to 23, we need to win that game.

I'd have less of a problem with the defense if Kaepernick had matriculated the ball down the field in a minute and a half or less the way Atlanta did in the 2010 regular season.  But SF hel the ball for the final 5:06 on a 13-play (not including the FG) drive, and the Packer defense let Kaepernick convert a 3d and 10, a 3d and 8, and a 3d and 3.

And this included the Packers stopping the clock twice by using its final two timeouts.