Evaluating the tallent of the Team

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "Evaluating the tallant at WR?  

No. Sorry kids. I got disconnected just before forking this topic. Beyond WR, it's somewhat mind boggling that MM and his staff have an issue really figuring out their talent on the roster and who's best and deserving to be on the field.

When Bakh went down, MM placed a completely inept Don Barclay at starting LT where Rodgers got killed at AZ the 1st time around. But yet he had a far more capable LT in JC Tretter who actually played the position in college. A better athlete with better feet and can maul. But who did he put there?

Beyond this season, MM has also had other players who should have been starting but weren't. Guys like Dez Bishop sat rotting on the roster until an injury finally got him into the starting role.

When these issues occur, who should get most of the blame? The position coaches? MM?

I also cant help but wonder what TT thinks when he see starters inserted due to injury who play far better then the guy who went down in the first place.

Green Bay Press Gazette asking the same thing

Looks like there is some talent on the team that was underutilized this year, perhaps the question should be evaluating the talent evalulators

I think the talent problem on this team is at the top: they lack blue chip playmakers.  In the Super Bowl year, guys were making huge plays at critical times in every single game.  If this was 2010, Shields holds onto that interception and goes for 6, ending the game.  Those plays didn't happen this year.  

Impressive highlights from 2 players who couldn't get onto the field most of the year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcde3yKvKe8

One thing that is for sure is that the offensive coaching staff needs to be restructured again this off-season.  The shuffling of the McCarthy/Clements/Bennett/Van Pelt responsibilities was a failure.  At the very least they need to go back to having separate coaches for quarterbacks and wide receivers.  Since all of these guys are proven and have had great NFL success I'd prefer to see them all just go back to their old roles - McCarthy = playcaller, Clements = offensive coordinator, Bennett = WR coach, Van Pelt = QB coach.  I don't know if McCarthy going back to playcalling would take away from what the defense and special teams did this year...but the Packers have to do it because they can't go through another year playing the type of offense that they played with Aaron Rodgers at QB.

I railed on Janis a lot but he does give you that speed element they were sorely lacking. 

When Monty went down Abbrederis was probably their next best route runner and showed he can get open. 

They gave Adams too many damn chances and that was a mistake.  Personally, I would have benched him a long time ago. 

Jones was clutch earlier in the year but simply ran out of gas the second half of the season. 

Would not surprise me to see Adams go the way of Boykin especially if Abby can stay healthy and Janis can continue to develop. I also don't think Jones will be back in 2016. 

Maybe Im on crack, but I actually think Adams will have a breakout year in 2016, Rodgers said again last night that Adams played hurt all year and I just think get him healthy and get some confidence and I bet he'll come out smoking hot next year. Remember that Jordy Nelson had a lousy season in his sophomore year. He had nagging knee injuries and was so bad he got demoted to 4th on the depth chart.

IIRC, JJ also had a bad second year as well. But it goes back to the question of seeing Adams just wasn't right health-wise, why were the Packers trotting him out there and actually giving him more snaps?

I think it's a byproduct of the draft and develop strategy of building a team. With so many new/newish faces on the team each year, when or more, how do you decide when any given player has reached his potential before moving on to the next guy ? 

At the very least they need to go back to having separate coaches for quarterbacks and wide receivers.  Since all of these guys are proven and have had great NFL success I'd prefer to see them all just go back to their old roles - McCarthy = playcaller, Clements = offensive coordinator, Bennett = WR coach, Van Pelt = QB coach

I'd have no issues with that but unfortunately, there's something called ego's involved. To do the above, means you're demoting these guys. And rumors going around were that Clements and Bennett were not happy about being refused OC opportunities on other teams. Thus the reason they got these internal promotions and stupid titles. MM is hoarding his talent. And it sorta blew up in his face.

Were Dahvante Adams hands broken during the year?  I don't think so.  Guys are hurt - Cobb was in worse shape and was doubled yet still made a lot more plays. 

Adams - much like Lacy - didn't seem to have the right focus and motivation for a good portion of the season.   Say what you want about MM but they would not have played him if he was hurt. 

1. Until last night I felt we need to draft another WR. We may be fine. 

2. Lacy needs to have a condition objective coming into training camp next year. He is too good to be this inconsistent.

3. We need O line depth and a red zone TE as top off season additions

4. If talent includes coaching - we need to be more creative in game planning and more willing to make in-game adjustments.

As for MM playing Abby and Janis more, he can only use the guys as he saw them in training camp and in daily practice.  If Abby and Janis didn't perform well then, MM knew what Adams could do because he saw it all last season.  Maybe both of those guys are players and not practicers.   After last night they should get more opportunities next season.  Maybe we'll get to see the 5 wide set again in the fall.

packerboi posted:

At the very least they need to go back to having separate coaches for quarterbacks and wide receivers.  Since all of these guys are proven and have had great NFL success I'd prefer to see them all just go back to their old roles - McCarthy = playcaller, Clements = offensive coordinator, Bennett = WR coach, Van Pelt = QB coach

I'd have no issues with that but unfortunately, there's something called ego's involved. To do the above, means you're demoting these guys. And rumors going around were that Clements and Bennett were not happy about being refused OC opportunities on other teams. Thus the reason they got these internal promotions and stupid titles. MM is hoarding his talent. And it sorta blew up in his face.

I'd have no problem with letting these guys "interview around" and saying bye-bye if they got better opportunities.  You are right on the money, the way they handled it blew up in their face.  After this season it's reasonable to think that Clements/Bennett/Van Pelt will not be hot commodities on the market which could lead to some more hard feelings as these guys might now feel better opportunities have passed and they need to rebuild their resumes.  But McCarthy definitely wasn't a hot name when Thompson hired him and that probably proved to be his second best GM move (after drafting Rodgers...people could argue the Matthews trade-up/pick is right up there too).

I still would like to have them all back if possible.  But two things have to happen with the offensive staff for sure.  1.  QB and WR coaching responsibilities need to be split (Bennett, Van Pelt or external candidates).  2.  Bennett cannot be the offensive coordinator, he definitely needs to be demoted to position coach and if that causes him to leave the organization then so be it. 

As I put it in another thread, the top 4 WRs next year are Nelson, Cobb, Montgomery, and Adams. Janis will probably stick as the 5th because of special teams and James Jones is likely gone - he has no value on special teams and too many teams can play 10 on 10 if they put even a half decent CB on him, and it's not like he's going to get any faster. 

An interesting question would be would you rather have Cobb at 10 million a year or Abby at 500K. They are both really limited to being slot guys. Cobb is a tough SOB and a competitor, but he was exposed this year for what he is. A good, but not great, "B" level WR who is not in the same class as other guys making 10 million a year. He had some brutal drops (think the first quarter yesterday). I'd take Abby at 5% of the cost. It won't happen because of salary cap considerations and the signing bonus, but TT overspent there (and most of us, myself included, thought it was a great move to lock Cobb up). 

Quarless is definitely gone and they need a real receiving threat at TE. RichRod is a decent backup TE who catches most balls near him, but may be the slowest TE in the league. 

Biggest needs next year

1. ILB. Ryan and Thomas are better than Hawk and Jones, but there are good guys for depth. They need a guy that can play ILB so they can move CM3 back to being a full time pash rusher. 

2. TE. A veteran Owen Daniels type who can run a little and at least mildly threaten a defense. 

3. They'll need another edge pash rusher. Neal may leave and Peppers is about done (as good as he was this year, he has to be considered a part time player at this point)

4. A quick change RB who can catch the ball out of the backfield. Lacy, Starks, and Kuhn all have to catch the ball at a standstill and then run. None of them are fluid pass receivers. 

5. A space filler at NT assuming Raji leaves. 

6. For the love of god, sign a veteran OT that you can play for a game or two without being a turnstile. A Bruce Wilkerson type. No one can expect to have a Pro Bowl backup tackle, but how could any coach or GM think that Barclay was even a stopgap at LT? It's not fair to Barclay at this point in his career. 

What don't they need. 

1. Amazingly enough, I think they have enough WRs. What are the odds that 4 guys will go down at this position next year. Montgomery coming back is like adding a new high pick anyway. 

2. DB. The Packers are as deep as any team in the league in CBs and the safeties look good. 

3. QB

DB and QB are the hardest pieces to find, and we are set at both positions. 

A designated WR coach is a must, I completely agree. At times Cobb and Adams we're also running some really schitty routes as well this season. Instead of sharp, precise cuts we were seeing a lot of "rounded" routes with poor execution. We saw none of that when Bennett was running that show. And how much of that also rubbed off on Janis! or Abby in practice? Makes you wonder.

ammo posted:

As for MM playing Abby and Janis more, he can only use the guys as he saw them in training camp and in daily practice.  If Abby and Janis didn't perform well then, MM knew what Adams could do because he saw it all last season.  Maybe both of those guys are players and not practicers.   After last night they should get more opportunities next season.  Maybe we'll get to see the 5 wide set again in the fall.

I know that is a lot more to it, but as I posted on here when I saw it, a video of clips from practice was posted prior to the first Vikes game. They showed the receivers running "out" patterns in the end zone. I thought that Abby cut sharper, with more explosion than any of our other receivers. 

I still say draft a wideout high, Jones will be gone, Abby is made of glass, Nelson is getting long in the tooth, Montgomery and Cobb are clones of each other and you can't call Janis the next Jordy based off one game

"I think it's a byproduct of the draft and develop strategy of building a team. With so many new/newish faces on the team each year, when or more, how do you decide when any given player has reached his potential before moving on to the next guy ? "

The coaching staff needs to be able to adequately determine which players can make the biggest difference on the field. This is part of their job. On many occasions this season, the coaching staff made poor personnel decisions.

Jeff Janis & Davante Adams - Our offense has been awful this season without a deep threat. Yet we kept on trotting out slow Jones and slow Adams on the outside. Teams brought safeties up and took Cobb out of the game. The only way Cobb can operate properly out of the slot is if you have a deep threat that keeps the safeties back. I don't care if Janis can't run perfect routes, he is the only guy that has enough speed to get deep and keep the defense honest. It is embarrassing for the coaching staff that it took 4 wide receivers getting hurt in order for Janis to get a legitimate opportunity. Look at what happens when he does get an opportunity. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

J.C. Tretter & Don Barclay - J.C. Tretter was an outstanding left tackle in college. Yet when Bakhtiari got hurt, they decided to put Don Barclay at left tackle instead. The same Don Barclay, that struggles with speed rushers at right tackle and had reconstructive knee surgery a year ago. Why did it take four games to realize that Tretter was the best option at LT?

Quentin Rollins & Casey Hayward - Hayward was the preferred slot corner for the entire year but Quentin Rollins is CLEARLY the better player right now. Hayward has lost a step, and didn't even record a single INT this year even though he played all 16 regular season games. He was the obvious weak link in the secondary, but they stuck with him for some reason. 

I have to disagree on calling Casey Hayward an obvious weak link.  He had a pretty good season.  A few weeks ago I was all for letting him go and moving forward with Shields/Randall/Rollins.  Now I'd like to see Hayward back to really solidify the CB depth.

I am pretty much where MP2 is in terms of needs, amended as follows.

Skill positions, need a TE with some speed and a scatback type of RB who can catch. 

I would put all of the rest of the draft into the front 7 on defense and OL.

Have to bring in a punter or two. I really like Masthay but way too inconsistent. Must re-sign Mason Crosby.

Now watch Ted draft a CB in the first 

I concur. TE,  & a third down RB with speed appear to be biggest offensive need right now. 

I'm hoping Raji can stay. I think Russ and Ted will make him a good offer, and I have little doubt he loves it here. Peppers to me will be an interesting decision.

He's making a lot of money to play part-time. There are games where he flat out falls off the face of the earth. And then there's a game where he's the reason they won. Im hoping he'll do a hometown discount deal to go chase a ring.

I think the Packers need some new play call wrinkles. Don't be misled into believing that the pass offense suddenly "clicked" the last 2 games. Virtually every big passing play from the time Montgomery went down was the QB breaking the pocket or doing something with his feet and a WR adjusting. The only other things that worked were the sideline passes to James Jones (which Arizona shut down last night) and the screen pass. Abredderis was supposedly running patterns he had never practiced last night and Rodgers to Janis were largely ad libs. When the Cardinals got up on the WR's and really pressed the Packers got nothing in rhythm late in the 2nd half.

Why Arizona kept letting Rodgers bait the pass rush up the middle and then spin out, like he wanted to do, is something that the talking heads would be beating to death today if GB had won. The Packers still need an infusion of speed. Be it Janis, Montgomery or a draft pick. AR isn't growing any younger and will need the pocket more and more.

Russell Wilson is supposed to be some type of role model for Aaron Rodgers to emulate? I think I saw that posted last night. Very few defenses that can win despite the QB play like the Seahawks.

No one is a bigger Janis booster than I am, but let us not get giddy over what he did yesterday. He isn't a great route runner at this time, but it is mind boggling that MM did nothing to take advantage of what he can do all season long.

What we need is AR to return to his career form, because for large parts of yesterday's game he was not that. The pick six (recalled by a fortuitous flag), more scatter arm passes as he missed open receivers, missing Cobb once or twice early on when Cobb had beaten his guy, one could have been a TD if memory serves.

So yeah, the amazing end of the game completions to Janis, those throws, but they need not have been in that hole to begin with had AR played at his expected high level that he has in his career.

The roster is in great shape. Young and tallanted and they have a HOF QB

2 things could really help put this roster over the top IMO and that's adding a TE and an ILB. They need some speed and athleticism OVER THE MIDDLE on both sides of the ball. I really hope TT doesn't bow out of FA again because there are going to be some solid TE options on the market.

TE. ILB. OT. Drafted in some manner of order. 

I think we all agree that they need someone at TE who can threaten the opposing defense past 5-7 yards.

And speed at LB.

Some intriguing TE's available in FA. I really, really hope TT is aggressive in that area

Ladarius Green is the most intriguing. Young(26) and athletic. Coby Fleener and Dwayne Allen are others

These days. I'm a Reggie Ragland fan first. 

I want to see him in Green and Yellow. Badly. Fast tackling machine. 

L. Green would be a nice add

So did we see the passing game finally rip up the blueprint last night?  Were we finally beating man coverage (by we I do not include JJ)?  That would be incredibly encouraging.  Adams isn't going anywhere.  I can't roll my eyes hard enough at the idea he could "go the way of Boykin".  

TT doesn't fill quotas at positions on the roster, they keep the most talented 53.  So they should keep all 6 (sorry JJ), which isn't too many for our WR dependent offense.  If they draft another WR, it will sort itself out in TC.  I am still a bit in disbelief that our bench WR's were able to do what they did vs that AZ secondary.

Only lack of talent on current team (barring FA losses) is ILB (Ryan could develop but would rather move CM back to OLB), TE and OT.  

Lots to be optimistic about.

Green would be great. I can't see SD letting him go anywhere. Too much upside.  

excalibur posted:

No one is a bigger Janis booster than I am, but let us not get giddy over what he did yesterday. He isn't a great route runner at this time, but it is mind boggling that MM did nothing to take advantage of what he can do all season long.

What we need is AR to return to his career form, because for large parts of yesterday's game he was not that. The pick six (recalled by a fortuitous flag), more scatter arm passes as he missed open receivers, missing Cobb once or twice early on when Cobb had beaten his guy, one could have been a TD if memory serves.

So yeah, the amazing end of the game completions to Janis, those throws, but they need not have been in that hole to begin with had AR played at his expected high level that he has in his career.

I don't recall those  passes to Cobb in the same way. I recall Cobb flat whiffing on a perfectly placed pass early on and someone posting from twitter where the observer said Cobb was open "if Rodgers could have waited". Rodgers will be as good as his supporting cast allows him to be. Just like Greg Jennings, Donald Driver and Jermichael Finley suggested. It was deemed blasphemy when they said it though. 

I'd like to see him not HAVING TO make as many plays with his feet and hit less. The Packers would be better for it. 

We played almost the entire game without what would have been our top 4 receivers in preseason......what would Carson Palmer have looked like last night without his top 4 receivers? 

Tom Brady? 

Ted will not sign a free agent TE, the whole league will be looking for TE and they will be expensive. I bet Ted will draft one in the  2nd or 3rd round. The Packers also  really need a defensive line man, I bet they will draft one in the first round.