D*mn, can't he just go away.... 
quote:Originally posted by fightphoe93:
Before 2008.
Agreed. The fame and fortune went to his head, and he developed into a total diva. It's a shame. Had he kept a level head, he would have remained in the realm of some of America's most iconic, beloved athletes of all time.
quote:Originally posted by fightphoe93:
It's just different now knowing what a phony he really is.
Amen
Aww, all the love.
Why don't you guys stop internet flirting with him and recognize the fact that he is one of the top 5 QBs to ever play the game.
All this phony crap, that is just after the fact butthurting.
Why don't you guys stop internet flirting with him and recognize the fact that he is one of the top 5 QBs to ever play the game.
All this phony crap, that is just after the fact butthurting.
I don't see anyone questioning his QBing abilities from days gone by. It's his douchey persona that wore thin.
quote:Originally posted by Diggr14:
Aww, all the love.
Why don't you guys stop internet flirting with him and recognize the fact that he is one of the top 5 QBs to ever play the game.
All this phony crap, that is just after the fact butthurting.
quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
I don't see anyone questioning his QBing abilities from days gone by.
Top 5 is very debatable, especially when you factor in his poor performance in the post season. Top 10? Easily. But the 6 INT nightmare in St. Louis and throws like that helium balloon he chucked to Brian Dawkins in the '03-04 playoffs or the inexplicable lob to Corey Webster in 2008 prevent him from being a consensus selection in the top 5 like a Johnny Unitas or Joe Montana.quote:Originally posted by Diggr14:
Aww, all the love.
Why don't you guys stop internet flirting with him and recognize the fact that he is one of the top 5 QBs to ever play the game.
All this phony crap, that is just after the fact butthurting.
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
I don't see anyone questioning his QBing abilities from days gone by.
quote:Originally posted by Diggr14:
he is one of the top 5 QBs to ever play the game.
Agree. I've always said the same thing through everything right up to this post and beyond. He's a first ballot hof'r and anyone that thinks differently is fooling themselves.
Favre & Peyton Manning could go into the hall on the same day. It might be special.
It must kill Brent that he was so easily replaced.
He's not a top-5 QB. Top-5 QBs manage to win more than 3 playoff games over a 10-year period.
He's not a top-5 QB. Top-5 QBs manage to win more than 3 playoff games over a 10-year period.
If that's true, where does that put Dan Marino?
He's top 5 it's not even an argument. It's a fact.
He's top 5 it's not even an argument. It's a fact.
Everyone gets replaced, no matter what you do. It's hard on anyone to be told they can no longer do what they have been doing for so long. AR12 will go through the same thing.
I can't put anyone ahead of these 4. The 5th spot for me is a tough one to choose.
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Starr
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Starr
]
I don't think Elway is necessarily a lock there. Favre definitely belongs in the discussion, and Brady has arguably worked his way into it too.
I don't think Elway is necessarily a lock there. Favre definitely belongs in the discussion, and Brady has arguably worked his way into it too.
quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
I can't put anyone ahead of these 4. The 5th spot for me is a tough one to choose.
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Starr
Seriously bro? You think elway is top 5??
Unitas
Marino
Graham
Favre
Tarkenton
We're talking QBs here. Not team achievements like championships.
Any top 5 list that doesn't include Joe Montana is not gonna hold water IMHO. Sorry, but there's no way in hell Brent, as great as he was in his prime, is better than Joe Montana. I will give you Brent over Tarkenton, though. He was better than Francis.
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Starr
Brady
Elway carried mediocre teams to the SB time and time again. You bet he belongs on the list, especially over Brent, whom he beat head-to-head in the bowl. I can see the arguments against Starr as well. Still, look at the stats - he set records for most passes without an INT that stood for decades. He also started establishing his playoff record more than 50 years ago now. His winning percentage when it counts the most has never been matched, and possibly never will. 9-1 in the playoffs is just as formidable a record as a 56-game hitting streak.
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Starr
Brady
Elway carried mediocre teams to the SB time and time again. You bet he belongs on the list, especially over Brent, whom he beat head-to-head in the bowl. I can see the arguments against Starr as well. Still, look at the stats - he set records for most passes without an INT that stood for decades. He also started establishing his playoff record more than 50 years ago now. His winning percentage when it counts the most has never been matched, and possibly never will. 9-1 in the playoffs is just as formidable a record as a 56-game hitting streak.
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Starr
Brady
Winners for several years with or without supporting cast.
Interesting how they tended to have pretty good coaching;
Walsh
Shula
The Rat
Lombardi
Belicheat
Some or all of these would also be in the Top 5 coach's list.
While I certainly can't argue with RatPack's list, (and it's probably the one I would list as well) I have a difficult time judging those who played before my time (Otto, Sid, Sammy, among others). I really don't know how they'd rank all-time, but they HAVE to be in the discussion.
However, of course, Bart's at #1. I know how it's said that he spent his career surrounded by HOF talent, which is true. Nearly ALL that talent was a large part of the 1-10-1 record of 1958, and they all matured at the same time, but they all wouldn't have without a strong QB. Vince got the ball rolling, but Bart picked it up and ran with it. Without him, it's entirely possible that the other talent wouldn't have blossomed nearly as much...
Yup. Bart's the guy.
However, of course, Bart's at #1. I know how it's said that he spent his career surrounded by HOF talent, which is true. Nearly ALL that talent was a large part of the 1-10-1 record of 1958, and they all matured at the same time, but they all wouldn't have without a strong QB. Vince got the ball rolling, but Bart picked it up and ran with it. Without him, it's entirely possible that the other talent wouldn't have blossomed nearly as much...
Yup. Bart's the guy.
I know he is adored in Packer Nation and won several championships... but Bart Starr doesn't belong on the top 5 list of QB's. He was great though.
Favre belongs in the list because he put up superior numbers AND wins along the way. Elway won games in Denver, but his production in the regular season was not that impressive. He never threw for more than 27 TDs. He only surpassed 20 TDs six times in his career, with four of the seasons coming in consecutive years on the back end of his career. He only passed for over 3,500 yds in six seasons.
To be honest, I think Elway's talent and legacy is somewhat exaggerated because of his 4th qtr. comebacks and the manner in which he left (i.e., back-to-back championships). But he wasn't even the best player on those Bronco teams. Davis was.
And for the record, Favre was so much better than Elway in that Super Bowl, it is not even worthy of a debate. If the defense plays just average run defense that game, the Packers are the team with back-to-back Super Bowls.
To be honest, I think Elway's talent and legacy is somewhat exaggerated because of his 4th qtr. comebacks and the manner in which he left (i.e., back-to-back championships). But he wasn't even the best player on those Bronco teams. Davis was.
And for the record, Favre was so much better than Elway in that Super Bowl, it is not even worthy of a debate. If the defense plays just average run defense that game, the Packers are the team with back-to-back Super Bowls.
Completely agree on Favre. I'd like to kick the guy in the nutsack too but damn, dude was incredible and his numbers/consecutive starts speak for themselves.
My biggest problem with Favre is how he left and what happened afterwards.
My biggest problem with Favre is how he left and what happened afterwards.
So 3 years from now we have this discussion and AR has 3 SB victories where would he be on the list?
As time moves forward of course you have to include other players, which obviously makes it difficult to form any kind of list. In the past 10 years alone, you can make pretty damn good arguments to have Favre, Brady and Manning on a top 5 list. Unfortunately and perhaps unfair, older players such as Unitas and Graham, fade into the distance. If Rodgers keeps his health and continues down his current path, I think he'll be right up there with the all-timers.
That's pretty much what it comes down to. Other than Brady, none of the guys on mine and RatPackya's list have ridiculous stats except for winning. Brent does. Brent has numbers regarding productivity and durability that will probably never be matched - along with interceptions, which IMHO is the record of his that could stand the longest.
I just can't put a guy on an all-time top five list with that many gag jobs in the postseason on his resume. I don't want to run through all of them again, but the other guys never really came up small in big spots. That IMHO needs to be part of the equation.
I just can't put a guy on an all-time top five list with that many gag jobs in the postseason on his resume. I don't want to run through all of them again, but the other guys never really came up small in big spots. That IMHO needs to be part of the equation.
quote:Originally posted by Johnny Boy:
So 3 years from now we have this discussion and AR has 3 SB victories where would he be on the list?
he would be on it if that happens.
quote:Originally posted by JJSD:
That's pretty much what it comes down to. Other than Brady, none of the guys on mine and RatPackya's list have ridiculous stats except for winning. Brent does. Brent has numbers regarding productivity and durability that will probably never be matched - along with interceptions, which IMHO is the record of his that could stand the longest.
I just can't put a guy on an all-time top five list with that many gag jobs in the postseason on his resume. I don't want to run through all of them again, but the other guys never really came up small in big spots. That IMHO needs to be part of the equation.
wait, is it about stats or not about stats?
That is spot on JJSD.
Can I submit a list of biggest douchebags?
1. Favre
2. Favre
3. Favre
4. Favre
5. Mcmahon
Can I submit a list of biggest douchebags?
1. Favre
2. Favre
3. Favre
4. Favre
5. Mcmahon
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
wait, is it about stats or not about stats?
It's about stats AND winning AND being clutch.
He had the physical tools, but not the mental judgment, and that's not enough to make him top five, regardless of his starting streak, completions, touchdowns, etc. The game of football is about winning, not about personal stats. Favre was called "gunslinger", but in the old west careful aim consistently beat the fast draw and in a gunfight, it is pretty clear what the difference between a winner and a loser is. He threw away the game too many times when better judgment would have kept him on the path to a championship for me to call him top five. Top five entertainer, no doubt, but not top five quarterback. Rodgers uses his skill, not abuses his skill, and that already makes him a better quarterback than Favre. I'd take Rodgers today over Favre at his prime. Whether you win the BIG game is the ONLY stat that defines a winner, and Favre's gag jobs shoot him down as a top five. Truly, if you could choose any quarterback in his prime for a superbowl, would you even put him ahead of Rodgers, let alone Montana, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
Seriously bro? You think elway is top 5??
Unitas
Marino
Graham
Favre
Tarkenton
We're talking QBs here. Not team achievements like championships.
Pass.
Marino
Favre
P. Manning
Montana
Unitas
Favre
P. Manning
Montana
Unitas
quote:Originally posted by barrister:
And for the record, Favre was so much better than Elway in that Super Bowl, it is not even worthy of a debate. If the defense plays just average run defense that game, the Packers are the team with back-to-back Super Bowls.
Elway: 139 yards passing plus cheating the salary cap.
Drives me crazy every time I think about it.
That's a respectable list CAP. I think Brady will nudge his way in there at some point. Rodgers too hopefully.
Shocking the lack of mentions Manning gets.
Other guys that, while clearly not top 5, rarely get mentioned in these discussions, but should - Warren Moon and Dan Fouts. As pure passers, both guys were really really good.
Other guys that, while clearly not top 5, rarely get mentioned in these discussions, but should - Warren Moon and Dan Fouts. As pure passers, both guys were really really good.
Is it too soon to put Cam Newton on this list?
RE: Cam - He won't be a top 5 QB this year, when all is said and done.
@Boris - RE: Elway - JJSD already answered pretty much why I listed him. Not sure about your list. Graham maybe, but no way I'd put Tarkenton in a top 5 list.
If I were to add a 5th to my list right now I'd probably go with Manning. He is so much like what I remember QB play being... where the QB ran the offense and did not rely on someone breaking down the defense play after play from above.
@Boris - RE: Elway - JJSD already answered pretty much why I listed him. Not sure about your list. Graham maybe, but no way I'd put Tarkenton in a top 5 list.
If I were to add a 5th to my list right now I'd probably go with Manning. He is so much like what I remember QB play being... where the QB ran the offense and did not rely on someone breaking down the defense play after play from above.
350 TD passes for Tark. 300 for Elway. 507 for Favre. 399 for Manning. Montana 250.
I'm evaluating QB play only not value to the team or championships, etc.
Ditto what Pakrz said.
I'm evaluating QB play only not value to the team or championships, etc.
Ditto what Pakrz said.