Makes me wanta screamquote:Originally posted by Boris:
Drives me crazy every time I think about it.
please make it stop....not trying to pick on you though...quote:Originally posted by Pakrz:
Packer Nation
When I think of top 5 it's Montana and Unitas 1-2 in any order. Both were put in this world to play QB.
Trailing a way's behind those two is Marino. The guy was a statue in the pocket. Defenses knew exactly where to find him. He still threw for over 60,000 yards. The perfect release. Got more done with less talent than anyone on this list. Marino had one RB top 1,000 yards his entire career. I'll be shocked if anyone can name him without looking it up.
Just behind Marino is Starr. Many people put Manning and / or Brady here and I dont get why. You can rattle Manning and Brady, it's been done. It's how you beat them. You couldn't rattle any of the QB's on this list, you just couldn't. And none moreso than Starr.
A bit behind Starr is Favre. To me Elway and Favre were the same QB. They made plays that no one had ever seen before. And may never see again. They were generational talents. Their sense of invincibility lead them both to make some horrific mistakes. Neither felt they were capable of throwing in interception. Favre get's the nod over Elway based on the HUGE gap in completion percentages for their careers. Favre threw 3,000 more passes over the course of his career and finished 5 full % points ahead of Elway for completion percentage, 62% to 57%. Elway's completion % of 57% get's glossed over way to often.
After those 5 are Otto Graham, Manning, Steve Young, Brady, Elway, Van Brocklin, and Tittle.
Just my opinion.....
Trailing a way's behind those two is Marino. The guy was a statue in the pocket. Defenses knew exactly where to find him. He still threw for over 60,000 yards. The perfect release. Got more done with less talent than anyone on this list. Marino had one RB top 1,000 yards his entire career. I'll be shocked if anyone can name him without looking it up.
Just behind Marino is Starr. Many people put Manning and / or Brady here and I dont get why. You can rattle Manning and Brady, it's been done. It's how you beat them. You couldn't rattle any of the QB's on this list, you just couldn't. And none moreso than Starr.
A bit behind Starr is Favre. To me Elway and Favre were the same QB. They made plays that no one had ever seen before. And may never see again. They were generational talents. Their sense of invincibility lead them both to make some horrific mistakes. Neither felt they were capable of throwing in interception. Favre get's the nod over Elway based on the HUGE gap in completion percentages for their careers. Favre threw 3,000 more passes over the course of his career and finished 5 full % points ahead of Elway for completion percentage, 62% to 57%. Elway's completion % of 57% get's glossed over way to often.
After those 5 are Otto Graham, Manning, Steve Young, Brady, Elway, Van Brocklin, and Tittle.
Just my opinion.....
I guess I'm a bit confused how you "don't get why" people put Manning on the list. Let's compare Manning and Starr:
Years in league
Starr: 16
Manning: 13
Completion Percentage
Starr: 57.4
Manning: 64.9
Passing Yards
Starr: 24,718
Manning: 54,828
Touchdowns
Starr: 152
Manning: 399
Interceptions
Starr: 138
Manning: 198
I get the love for Starr, I really do. But there's an awful lot of homerism with Packer fans, especially older ones, with the guy. He was a great player... but again, nowhere near a top 5 qb. Maybe not even top 10. Manning might be the best pure quarterback to ever play the game and IMO is light years better than Bart Starr.
Years in league
Starr: 16
Manning: 13
Completion Percentage
Starr: 57.4
Manning: 64.9
Passing Yards
Starr: 24,718
Manning: 54,828
Touchdowns
Starr: 152
Manning: 399
Interceptions
Starr: 138
Manning: 198
I get the love for Starr, I really do. But there's an awful lot of homerism with Packer fans, especially older ones, with the guy. He was a great player... but again, nowhere near a top 5 qb. Maybe not even top 10. Manning might be the best pure quarterback to ever play the game and IMO is light years better than Bart Starr.
First ballot HOF'er?
Yes.
Top 5 all time?
No.
Yes.
Top 5 all time?
No.
Would I take Manning over Favre?
Yep.
Brady too.
Yep.
Brady too.
quote:Originally posted by Pakrz:
I guess I'm a bit confused how you "don't get why" people put Manning on the list. Let's compare Manning and Starr:
Years in league
Starr: 16
Manning: 13
Completion Percentage
Starr: 57.4
Manning: 64.9
Passing Yards
Starr: 24,718
Manning: 54,828
Touchdowns
Starr: 152
Manning: 399
Interceptions
Starr: 138
Manning: 198
I get the love for Starr, I really do. But there's an awful lot of homerism with Packer fans, especially older ones, with the guy. He was a great player... but again, nowhere near a top 5 qb. Maybe not even top 10. Manning might be the best pure quarterback to ever play the game and IMO is light years better than Bart Starr.
Two different eras of football. That doesn't seem to come into the equation here.
quote:Originally posted by Pakrz:
I guess I'm a bit confused how you "don't get why" people put Manning on the list. Let's compare Manning and Starr:
Years in league
Starr: 16
Manning: 13
Completion Percentage
Starr: 57.4
Manning: 64.9
Passing Yards
Starr: 24,718
Manning: 54,828
Touchdowns
Starr: 152
Manning: 399
Interceptions
Starr: 138
Manning: 198
I get the love for Starr, I really do. But there's an awful lot of homerism with Packer fans, especially older ones, with the guy. He was a great player... but again, nowhere near a top 5 qb. Maybe not even top 10. Manning might be the best pure quarterback to ever play the game and IMO is light years better than Bart Starr.
Obviously, I've got a bias for Starr. But there's one thing that's not taken into account here... Manning, in his entire career, had his plays called by his coach. He probably audibles more than anyone else in the modern game, but the coach calls the plays. That NEVER happened with Bart, who called his own plays (more than 99% of the time) and if he audibled, he audibled his own call to ANOTHER one of his own calls. And he won. During the regular season. During the postseason. In world title games. And in the championships, with the highest pressure in the professional game, his efficiency went UP. That hasn't happened with Manning, didn't happen with Marino, or Favre, or Elway (who did win back to back championships at the end of his career with less than stellar numbers.
There's also a quote from Max McGee during an interview before the 1967 season, about the comparisons of Starr with Unitas, among others: "What people don't understand is that Bart may not be the best PASSER... but he is the best QUARTERBACK." The position is (or at least, was, before coaches took away such a large part of it by taking over the play calling) about far more than just throwing the ball. It was about running and managing the GAME.
Am I a homer? You betcha! But the numbers speak for themselves.
Kick ass old man!!!
At minimum Bart does deserve to be counted in the top 10.
At minimum Bart does deserve to be counted in the top 10.
quote:Am I a homer? You betcha! But the numbers speak for themselves.
Yes, the numbers do speak for themselves, including a completion percentage of 57.4. Starr struggles to make my top 10 list.
Great player though.
Okay.
I'd love to see how today's top guys would fare calling their own plays. Maybe quite well, we'll never know. But we DO know how Bart did. And, of course, Johnny U among many others of years past.
I'd love to see how today's top guys would fare calling their own plays. Maybe quite well, we'll never know. But we DO know how Bart did. And, of course, Johnny U among many others of years past.
quote:Shocking the lack of mentions Manning gets.
Manning's playoff record is worse than Favre's.
this isn't baseball we are talking about...
Football definitely can be divided into eras more than baseball.
Make a list of QB's from each era and what they did in those periods....then, maybe compare those lists
Football definitely can be divided into eras more than baseball.
Make a list of QB's from each era and what they did in those periods....then, maybe compare those lists
The Packers not only won 29 consecutive games at Lambeau Field but also won more games at Lambeau field with Favre (90) than any other team has with any other QB in the history of the sport. The Packers also went 22-8 against the Bears over 16 seasons while he was here. Hate Brett Favre all you want for how he left and choking in the playoffs (he deserves it), but he did some all time great things while he was here. Peyton Manning can go take a $hit in the woods and Dan Marino can wipe his a$$ for all I care. They couldn't do what Favre did while he was here. Favre had his own way of playing the game and Green Bay did darn good by it while he was here.
Whoa.
Titmfatied with authority!
Titmfatied with authority!
quote:Originally posted by titmfatied:
The Packers not only won 29 consecutive games at Lambeau Field but also won more games at Lambeau field with Favre (90) than any other team has with any other QB in the history of the sport. The Packers also went 22-8 against the Bears over 16 seasons while he was here. Hate Brett Favre all you want for how he left and choking in the playoffs (he deserves it), but he did some all time great things while he was here. Peyton Manning can go take a $hit in the woods and Dan Marino can wipe his a$$ for all I care. They couldn't do what Favre did while he was here. Favre had his own way of playing the game and Green Bay did darn good by it while he was here.
Text me with that info next time.
quote:Originally posted by titmfatied:
They couldn't do what Favre did while he was here. Favre had his own way of playing the game and Green Bay did darn good by it while he was here.
Yep. I'll try to remember that over all the massive playoff chokes. What? 6 INTs against the Rams?
THIS IS OUR HOUSE! until Atlanta shows up.
Desmond Howard, MVP.
Bert carries Brady's jock.
I'm sure that streak didn't have anything to do with the coaching of Holmgren and the eventual collapse of the "Lambeau mystique" under Sherman.
Ain't that a bitch.
How many QBs does it take to throw 30 interceptions in the playoffs?
One.
One.
Two NFCC games with two different teams and two monumental unforced errors that probably cost both a trip to the SB. That alone eliminates Favre from top five consideration as far as I'm concerned.
This.
Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing.
Winning isn't everything. It's the ONLY thing.
In his career Starr threw 2 TD passes from inside the 3 yard line.
Manning already has 37 TD passes from inside the 3 yard line.
That is a whole season's worth of TDs from inside the 3.
Bart chose to hand it off.
Manning already has 37 TD passes from inside the 3 yard line.
That is a whole season's worth of TDs from inside the 3.
Bart chose to hand it off.
True. But this is about QUARTERBACKS, not just passers. And the most important job for the QB is to WIN THE GAME. Cam Newton has had the fastest start in NFL history in yardage. But he's 0-2. He may throw for more yards than anyone by the time he's done. But if his winning % is less than .400, no one will care.
There should be two categories--one for QB's like Starr and Unitas who called their own plays, and the modern generation. So, let's look at only the modern QB's. The question a person has to ask himself is who, in his prime, do I want as my QB in a superbowl game? Anyone who would choose Favre in his top five just hasn't been paying attention to the way he usually ends big games--with the game losing interception. For one game, and one game only, with a good team like this years Packers, Favre doesn't even make my top ten.
I hate to admit it (probably because it dates me back to almost Civil War times) but you're probably right. It's nothing but an exercise in frustration to compare the different eras in the same conversation. As fullbacks, Jim Taylor and Jim Brown both led the league in rushing. As a fullback, how many seasons passed with William Henderson not getting ONE carry?
It's a different game.
It's a different game.
Funny, this thread was revived when I posted about Favre doing color for MissSt. Frog, or is it Toad then says Favre is a top 5 QB. I'm just glad he is finally done playing.
It is a different game and I liked the one 50 years ago better. I've more admiration for a QB who calls his own plays. I think many of today's QB's would do just great with that, like Brady or Rodgers. I also like having fullbacks who ran the ball. Jim Taylor was one of my all time favorites. He didn't have Barry Sander's moves, but when you needed a yard, you got a yard.
Brent's a top-5 regular season QB, but his lack of success in the postseason pushes him out of the top 5. No top-5 QB does what he did vs. Philly, the Giants and NO. I think Brent and Manning are very similar, but I'd give Manning the edge because he didn't choke quite so bad in the playoffs.
Fan or not... that's funny right there! 
I have always thought that Favre and Manning's teams frequently overachieved. Simply making the playoffs certain years was an accomplishment. But teams that overachieve in the regular season are always exposed in the playoffs.
Favre and Manning often played the deck stacked against them, in terms of the talent on their teams. Very few QBs in NFL history could make Bill F'n Schroeder a 1,000 yd / 9 TD wide receiver like Favre did. The lack of talent doesn't explain every postseason - obviously Favre had some major choke jobs.
He turned out to be a total diva, and I certainly don't look at him like I once did. I won't be headed to his HOF induction, which I was promised myself I would do prior to his departure. But in the end, I have to admit that he was a hell of a QB. You could put Favre in his prime against any QB in NFL history.
Favre and Manning often played the deck stacked against them, in terms of the talent on their teams. Very few QBs in NFL history could make Bill F'n Schroeder a 1,000 yd / 9 TD wide receiver like Favre did. The lack of talent doesn't explain every postseason - obviously Favre had some major choke jobs.
He turned out to be a total diva, and I certainly don't look at him like I once did. I won't be headed to his HOF induction, which I was promised myself I would do prior to his departure. But in the end, I have to admit that he was a hell of a QB. You could put Favre in his prime against any QB in NFL history.
quote:I'd give Manning the edge because he didn't choke quite so bad in the playoffs.
I think you need to compare Favre's playoff record vs. Mannings playoff record.
As much as I can't stand the guy, I'll put Favre against any other QB in NFL history. Including the dumb hick, boneheaded, hair pulling plays.