That's a big IF considering his hip problem.
quote:Originally posted by ChilliJon:
Bo Jackson. Best RB ever. 4 years in the NFL. He played part time. It was his hobby. 6'1" 230. Clocked 4.12 40 at the combine. If he played 10 years full time he would have gone Gretzky to the record books.
He was certainly an incredible physical specimen. It's possible he could have become the best had he focused on it. He was a little bit more of a straight ahead runner than guys like Walter Payton and Barry Sanders were. They could juke you out of your shoes more than Jackson could. But for raw speed and power, he was the best combo I've seen since watching the NFL beginning in '78.
I voted for Jim Brown based on the his dominance of his era, but truth be told, I never saw him play live. I only have seen him via highlight films. Walter Payton was the most versatile of the great backs I've seen, and Barry Sanders was the most exciting. Bo Jackson was just an athletic freak that was sort of in his own category.
Bo was the same size as Jim Brown and faster the Deion Sanders. He palyed 10 games a year starting in 1987 and had to try and take snaps away from Marcus Allen. In 1987 Marcus was the Heisman Trophy, Super Bowl MVP, Pro Bowl King of LA. By 1988 Bo turned Marcus into a backup. Has anyone ever taken a future HOF'er in their prime and relegated them to a secondary role like that? The Raiders had no choice. Bo was better and Marcus knew it.
Jim Brown was a generational talent. Same with Walter. But Bo is right there with them.
Jim Brown was a generational talent. Same with Walter. But Bo is right there with them.
I'be been racking my brain trying to come up with an equivalent to Bo Jackson and I'm not sure there is one. Gale Sayers comes to mind and maybe Bill Walton. Two players who would have put up unbelievable numbers if not for injury.
But with Bo Jackson never playing a full NFL season even when healthy (baseball duties), puts him in the legend category. The fact that he was also a MLB All-Star might make him the best athlete of modern times.
ESPN has these 30 for 30 shows and one on Bo would be awesome. I think many don't realize what a talent he was. I know I had forgotten about him until he was brought up in this thread.
But with Bo Jackson never playing a full NFL season even when healthy (baseball duties), puts him in the legend category. The fact that he was also a MLB All-Star might make him the best athlete of modern times.
ESPN has these 30 for 30 shows and one on Bo would be awesome. I think many don't realize what a talent he was. I know I had forgotten about him until he was brought up in this thread.
Bo Jackson doesn't even deserve consideration for any all-time list. You're trying to make an argument about what might have been. The reality is that Bo Jackson never rushed for 1,000 yards in a season... nor did he ever have more than 5 rushing tds in a season.
His CAREER totals are 2,782 rushing yards and 16 tds. Terdell Middleton's best season was better than any of Bo Jacksons... Think about that for a minute.
His CAREER totals are 2,782 rushing yards and 16 tds. Terdell Middleton's best season was better than any of Bo Jacksons... Think about that for a minute.
Well, I'm not sure this thread is the prototypical all-time list for one. And also, yes, he never did rush for 1,00 yards in a season. But also never played more than 11 games due to baseball. Also, how many carries did he not get when he wasn't in football shape yet? I don't think the discussion is is he a HOFer...no. It is who is the "real best" of all time and he can be in that discussion.
Put it this way, if you could pick between these three in their absolute prime, who would you pick?
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Gale Sayers
Bo Jackson
I think one could "go Bo" easily...
Put it this way, if you could pick between these three in their absolute prime, who would you pick?
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Walter Payton
Gale Sayers
Bo Jackson
I think one could "go Bo" easily...
Terdell Middleton would have taken carries from Marcus Allen.
I'm not trying to agrue anything. It's my opinion. And that opinion is Bo carried the football as well as any I've ever ween.
Jim Brown is right there. And I never watched him live. Maybe my opionion would be different. But Bo is the best I ever watched when he played.
I'm not trying to agrue anything. It's my opinion. And that opinion is Bo carried the football as well as any I've ever ween.
Jim Brown is right there. And I never watched him live. Maybe my opionion would be different. But Bo is the best I ever watched when he played.
quote:Originally posted by ChilliJon:
Bo Jackson. Best RB ever. 4 years in the NFL. He played part time. It was his hobby. 6'1" 230. Clocked 4.12 40 at the combine. If he played 10 years full time he would have gone Gretzky to the record books.
What does his 40 time have to do with anything? Let's throw Willie Gault and Renaldo Nehemiah on the list at receiver because they were fast! Billy Sims would have surely broken records if he didn't blow his knee out. Joe Delaney would have been a Hall of Fame back if he didn't drown.
"Would have" does not equate to the best of all time, I'm sorry. He choose to not play full time. He was damned good when he did play, but he didn't play the game long enough to be considered one of the best ever. Then, there's the troublesome fact of his hip bone dying. Unless Bo Jackson was going to carry the ball while hopping around on one leg, he wasn't going to go "all Gretzky" on the record books.
The guys that have been mentioned as the greats DID do it. Jackson didn't. He was an exciting player, and showed real flashes of brilliance...but he was a shooting star, and his light burned out too fast. Now, if you want to start the all time could have been greats list, I'm all for Bo being on it.
I'm really kind of surprised that nobody's mentioned Jim Thorpe (or did I miss it?). During his time, he had no peers at SEVERAL positions (as well as several different sports) and with today's training, nutrition, etc., there's no telling what he might be like. It's very difficult finding any film of him playing... but when you talk about all time, you've also got to talk about those who came before.
quote:Terdell Middleton's best season was better than any of Bo Jacksons...
Hmmmm.
Does yards/carry matter? I suppose if it doesn't your observation might be seen to have credibility.
In 1989, Jackson ran for 980 yards and had a 5.5 yards/carry. 5.5 yards. That is SMASHING the all time best numbers. (Correction: the great Barry Sanders had a year with 5.7 and another with 6.1 - WOW! BUT, Sanders also gained negative yardage in a playoff against the Packers and no way that would have happened with Bo Jackson. For Jackson to be a less elusive back and more of a mauler, 5.5 is astonishing.)
I am not here to say Jackson belongs. The briefness of a career requires consideration. But, to say that Terdell Middleton had better seasons than Bo Jackson. That to me is tantamount to giving some turd who has a 1 yard/carry average the ball 1000 times - and saying he had a better season than some guy with a 10 yard/carry average who only had 80 carries.
yeah, right.
quote:What does his 40 time have to do with anything?
So your point means that one must look further.
When you do so, do you really see some huge liabilities in Jackson's play? The dude sometimes ran right through linebackers like a frigging freight train.
Now how does a 4.18 stack up when you also include that little factoid?
If you completely ignore the brevity of careers, the best RB of all time just may have been Marcus Dupree.
I still remember his freshman year at Oklahoma. Absolutely unbelievable. There is a 30/30 on him - The Best That Never Was.
I still remember his freshman year at Oklahoma. Absolutely unbelievable. There is a 30/30 on him - The Best That Never Was.
Of course the Middleton reference was a stretch... it's supposed to be in comparison to insinuating that Bo Jackson should be on any all-time list. He's not even in the top 10 rb's IMO... maybe not even the top 20. The guy did next to nothing in the NFL other than put up a few highlight plays.
So you're placing a larger amount of importance on longevity rather than performance no matter how minimal? Yes?
It's definitely a strong factor, yes... But in Jackson's case specifically, his best season was 950 yards rushing and 4 tds. Oh, he had 69 receiving yards too.
I grew up watching all the "Bo Knows" hoopla. Yea, he had some incredible highlight reel plays. But he doesn't even sniff my all-time RB selection.
I grew up watching all the "Bo Knows" hoopla. Yea, he had some incredible highlight reel plays. But he doesn't even sniff my all-time RB selection.
950 yards in 11 games on only 173 carries. Or 15 carries per game. 5.4 yards per carry. He was actually better in 1990, 5.5 yards per carry. In the playoff game against the Bengals (his last NFL game). He left after the start of the 3rd quarter after only 6 carries. For 77 yards.
Sorry man, I'm just not buying into the Bo Jackson hype.... Trust me, I watched every game he played. Both of them. He looked good though.
By the logic being used to prop up Jackson, a running back who played one game in which he ran for 450 yards on 15 carries, then dropped dead the next day, would be the greatest ever.
Longevity might be THE factor, but it certainly is a factor. Sorry, but a player with 23 starts doesn't belong in the discussion of the greatest anything.
Longevity might be THE factor, but it certainly is a factor. Sorry, but a player with 23 starts doesn't belong in the discussion of the greatest anything.
True, I would not put Bo Jackson in my top 10 RB's of all-time. Probably not even top 25. It's too bad he didn't have the longevity. He probably makes the list easily if he plays as long as say Ladanian Tomlinson.
Longevity is a large part of the equation. That's why Favre is #1
Longevity is a large part of the equation. That's why Favre is #1
quote:Originally posted by cuqui:
Ray Lewis is a great player.
He ain't no Dick Butkus. Along with LT, the most disruptive and playmaking linebacker ever.
Were you around to watch him play? That was a little before my time. I'm sure my opinion might be different if I had the chance to see him week after week.... Same for Nitschke.
Loved watching Campbell as a kid. Just a punisher. If I was going to make a comparison of what Jackson could have been, this is it.
Re: Butkus.
Yeah. An amazing player. His knees went south about halfway through his career but he kept going at a very high level until he had to give it up after 9 seasons. One of the fiercest competitors, incredible range on the field, big, big hitter.
We'd always argue as kids about who was better, you know, Starr vs. Unitas, etc. The LB argument was always Nitschke versus Butkus. Nitschke was great, too, but in retrospect you'd be hard-pressed to pick him over Butkus.
Earlier in the thread someone observed that Ray Lewis might be better in pass coverage. Lewis has 31 picks in 16 seasons in a pass-heavy league. Butkus had 22 picks in 9 seasons during the black and blue days. He had phenomenal range and probably was the fastest MLB in the league before his knees went on him.
Again, think of how Lawrence Taylor could just take over games. Butkus was that kind of player from the MLB position.
Pretty sick when you remember that Halas got both Butkus and Gale Sayers in the same draft (1965).
quote:Originally posted by Pakrz:
Were you around to watch him play?
Yeah. An amazing player. His knees went south about halfway through his career but he kept going at a very high level until he had to give it up after 9 seasons. One of the fiercest competitors, incredible range on the field, big, big hitter.
We'd always argue as kids about who was better, you know, Starr vs. Unitas, etc. The LB argument was always Nitschke versus Butkus. Nitschke was great, too, but in retrospect you'd be hard-pressed to pick him over Butkus.
Earlier in the thread someone observed that Ray Lewis might be better in pass coverage. Lewis has 31 picks in 16 seasons in a pass-heavy league. Butkus had 22 picks in 9 seasons during the black and blue days. He had phenomenal range and probably was the fastest MLB in the league before his knees went on him.
Again, think of how Lawrence Taylor could just take over games. Butkus was that kind of player from the MLB position.
Pretty sick when you remember that Halas got both Butkus and Gale Sayers in the same draft (1965).
On Ray Lewis... I remember reading an article shortly after he was drafted. The article indicated that Wolf had every intention on drafting Lewis but he was taken just before the Packers selected. Man... what could have been.
...But then again, we selected John Michels right after the Ravens took Lewis in 1996 so it's probably a wash.
Ray Lewis would've been the perfect guy to kick TOGs ass
John Michels was a jump-the- board error for Wolf - he wanted Tony Brackens but needed an LT
So he drafted for need instead of taking the better player
http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/1996
John Michels was a jump-the- board error for Wolf - he wanted Tony Brackens but needed an LT
So he drafted for need instead of taking the better player
http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/1996
quote:Originally posted by Henry:
Loved watching Campbell as a kid. Just a punisher. If I was going to make a comparison of what Jackson could have been, this is it.
Good call on Campbell. Seems he gets ignored in these discussions. I also give him some extra points for playing on that concrete down in Houston. I honestly can't imagine playing on those old artificial turf surfaces.
Yeah, Campbell was a horse. Loved him. What a bruising style.
One RB I never saw, but had huge accolades in a show on the NFL-AFL war was Cookie Gilchrist. Jim Brown commented real highly on him.
One RB I never saw, but had huge accolades in a show on the NFL-AFL war was Cookie Gilchrist. Jim Brown commented real highly on him.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:
Loved watching Campbell as a kid. Just a punisher. If I was going to make a comparison of what Jackson could have been, this is it.
Meh. Carries the ball like a loaf of bread. Just a guy.
I always enjoy viewing these lists but one thing puzzles me everybody immediately annoits Jerry Rice GOAT WR, and that may be so but I wonder why nobody mentions Don Hutson! He set records that stood for more than 40 years and he did it when football was not a passing game. Now I never saw him play live but everybody else on the list I have and the rules so inflate waht hapens today I think a great case could be made for Donald as the GOAT WR of all time. BTW I'm not a Jimmy Brown fan but Payton and Brown were the best running backs I ever saw.
Pack88
Pack88
quote:Originally posted by ChilliJon:
He left after the start of the 3rd quarter after only 6 carries. For 77 yards.
Let's not forget he got hurt after getting hauled from behind by a safety. The 4.18 combine time is a myth.
It's not a myth. He ran a 10.39 100 Meter in college. He had world class speed and he weighed 230 LBS.
After watching Lawrence Taylor's first few years in the NFL I didn't say "I'm not sold, he may work out. I need to see more".
He was the baddest ass I had ever seen play the position. He could have done a trash bag full of coke after his 3rd year and died and never played another game it wouldn't have swayed my opinion.
I didn't need 10 years to determine he was the best. He just was. Same goes for Walter Payton and Barry Sanders. They were just better than everyone else. You didn't need stats and longevity to justify what you were watching. You knew it immediately.
And as for Bo getting hurt being hauled down by a safety. 2:40 mark.
After watching Lawrence Taylor's first few years in the NFL I didn't say "I'm not sold, he may work out. I need to see more".
He was the baddest ass I had ever seen play the position. He could have done a trash bag full of coke after his 3rd year and died and never played another game it wouldn't have swayed my opinion.
I didn't need 10 years to determine he was the best. He just was. Same goes for Walter Payton and Barry Sanders. They were just better than everyone else. You didn't need stats and longevity to justify what you were watching. You knew it immediately.
And as for Bo getting hurt being hauled down by a safety. 2:40 mark.
quote:Originally posted by ChilliJon:
RB-Bo Jackson
FB-William Henderson
OT-Art Shell, Orlando Pace
G-Anthony Munoz,
WR-Larry Fitzgerald
DT-Haloti Ngata
ILB-Dick Butkus
Arguments could be Jim Brown, Jerry Kramer, Johnathan Ogden, Don Hudson, and Ray Lewis.
Sanders at RB, Ogden and Munoz at tackle (not close IMO), Bruce Matthews at guard, Johnston at Fullback, Hutson at receiver, Ray Lewis at ILB and a number of DTs (though Ngata's danged good)
Not saying Bo is slow, but the fastest NFL player in history? No! Never saw anyone pull away from Darrell Green or catch up to Deion.
Didn't Barry Sanders lead the NFL for runs for negative yardage for a few years? He wasn't clutch on third down at all.
I know you're all going to laugh, but any list that does not have Walter Payton number one at RB is a joke. He played with defenders that were bigger than him (see Jim Brown) and did everything (Run, Pass, Catch, Block) extremely well.
I know you're all going to laugh, but any list that does not have Walter Payton number one at RB is a joke. He played with defenders that were bigger than him (see Jim Brown) and did everything (Run, Pass, Catch, Block) extremely well.
I don't think you get points for being undersized. Jim Brown was a man among boys. Walter wasn't.
Deep, how big was Barry Sanders? If you are going to start trying to say Payton played against bigger guys but Barry Sanders played against smaller, I'd love to hear your argument on getting a raise.
You might want to try looking at average heights/weights of defenders in the 70/80's vs 90/2000's along with Walter's 5'10" vs Sanders 5'8".
You might want to try looking at average heights/weights of defenders in the 70/80's vs 90/2000's along with Walter's 5'10" vs Sanders 5'8".