It's Time to Get Real About Raji...

Guys like Raji are hard to find: big, athletic, and willing to chew up space. That said, he needs to be a lot more consistent before I pay him like a top five.

Raji has been inconsistent and far from worthy of a Top 10 pick. But he's still quite young and he came on strong at the end of this year.

Hilarious. I have full faith and confidence that TT will pay him what he's worth and all the arguments of inconsistency and other evil doings will be presented. Obviously this team needs at least 12 impact players.

Just my humble lapdog.

Or maybe I'm just tired of the colossal pissing down one's leg.

I think he's a good player, who would be even better in a 4-3 where he could use his quickness to penetrate and disrupt.

From Bad Bob McGinn in rating player performances this year (top to bottom):

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RANKING THE STARS
Here are the 25 members of the Green Bay Packers who received mention among the top three stars in the Journal Sentinel's "Rating the Packers" weekly series this season. Being a No. 1 star was worth three points, No. 2 star was worth two and No. 3 star was worth one.

Player,     position 1 2 3 Pts. 
Clay Matthews, LB    3 1 1 12 
James Jones,   WR    2 0 3 9 
Josh Sitton,   G     1 2 2 9 
B.J. Raji,     DE    1 2 1 8 

Cliff Cristl (a notoriously call them as I see 'em reporter) also praised Raji's season and I believe it was Silverstein that said Raji's season this year was extremely close to his best year in 2010.

You have to remember his position in a 3-4 is hardly one of glamour. He's a space eater, a player who collapses pockets and forces QB's from stepping into the pocket, bounces runners outside, etc. ALOT of what Raji does can easily go unnoticed.

Silverstein points out yesterday:

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The combination of Ryan Pickett and B.J. Raji has been solid in the middle, but when C.J. Wilson got hurt Capers had no one who could serve as the third run-stuffer in his base defense. Mike Neal, Jerel Worthy and Daniels were poor substitutes for the double-team-eating ends necessary to stop the run in the 3-4 defense

When you have healthy players able to give Raji rotational help, it's all the difference for him. In 2011, he played WAY too many snaps and it showed. He simply wore out. When Neal and CJ Wilson were able to play and give him help and limit his snaps per game, he's just a different player. Let's also not forget Pickett gets hurt on Saturday and Worthy went out for the season.

Im not saying throw gobbs and gobbs of money at Raji. But he's far more valuable then many realize.

Name me 5 other DT/NT that are better than Raji?

Wilfork? Likely. Ngata? Probably. Geno Atkins? I sure think so.

That's all that come to mind off the top of my head. You could make a case for maybe Henry Melton but there you have it.

Good points all around. I think part of it is me holding him to the ridiculously high standard he set for himself in 2010.

IMO, Your view is warped by the fact that Hawk is suppose to be the beneficiary of what Raji and Pickett are trying to accomplish in this defense ... Bishop did it.

Before you dismiss Raji, IMO, you have to take a look at the production behind him there or at least the real abilities behind there, Hawk or any backup.

100% agree, Tit. At this point giving him a big time contract has to be considered a gamble based on one great year and a couple good years. Count me out at this point.

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It's a cap killer to pay a guy that's not lived up to expectations and hope he will meet those in the future.

See one AJ Hawk.

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Originally posted by Tschmack:
Name me 5 other DT/NT that are better than Raji?

Wilfork? Likely. Ngata? Probably. Geno Atkins? I sure think so.

That's all that come to mind off the top of my head. You could make a case for maybe Henry Melton but there you have it.

Agree, but if he asks to be paid in that league, I hope he is told to take a hike. Maybe he gets the James Jones treatment and comes back at a realistic price? I'm all for that scenario.

It's also no coincidence that the resurgence of CMIII in 2012 also links up well with Raji's in 2012. In 2011, CMIII went from 15 sacks (including playoffs) down to 6.

Both Raji and CMIII benefited this year from a much healthier Mike Neal, Pickett with perhaps his best year, Worthy when he was healthy, CJ Wilson when he was healthy, Nick Perry when he was healthy, and a very inconsistent but at times effective Erik Walden. Get these guys rotational help and depth, and looky-loo Raji and CMIII suddenly return to SB year form.

In 2013, that's again the key. You have to continue to give them depth and help and those 2 players will look very good.

I'm really high on Mike Neal these days.. He came on strong this season and as long as he can shed the injury bug I think he progresses and is a major contributor next year.

Line him up on the right side next to Clay and let those two work stunts like SF does with the Smith twins. Perry and your stoutest run defender on the left side.

There is a lot of potential there. Not trying to derail, but I don't think it's a talent issue.

Raji is a top 5 NT in the NFL. He'll get his money.

What would Lovie Smith do with BJ Raji?

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Originally posted by Tschmack:
Name me 5 other DT/NT that are better than Raji?

Wilfork? Likely. Ngata? Probably. Geno Atkins? I sure think so.

That's all that come to mind off the top of my head. You could make a case for maybe Henry Melton but there you have it.

Dream on. Big guys like that will be snapped up in a New York minute

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Originally posted by BrainDed:
Agree, but if he asks to be paid in that league, I hope he is told to take a hike. Maybe he gets the James Jones treatment and comes back at a realistic price? I'm all for that scenario.

Raji is so far down the take-a-hike list that I can't find him.

Agree. Horrible thread. Up next: It's time to move Clay Matthews to QB

Agreed.... BJ is far from our worries. He is big, athletic, quick, and most team in the NFL will pay him what the Packers won't, if they decide to go that route.

Pickett isn't a spring chicken, and I could actually see, him falling off, or being done within the next year or two. So potentially, no Pickett or Raji, but we want to run the 3-4, YIKES! I hope we can put up 50+ points a game.

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Originally posted by Tschmack:
Name me 5 other DT/NT that are better than Raji?

Wilfork? Likely. Ngata? Probably. Geno Atkins? I sure think so.

That's all that come to mind off the top of my head. You could make a case for maybe Henry Melton but there you have it.

Justin Smith has to be on that list. Is JJ Watt considered a tackle or an end now? Suh and Fairley are pretty solid.

The challenge with Raji is that he shows flashes of being top five, but he's not an automatic presence like some of those guys up on that list. So there's definitely risk in paying him big bucks.

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Originally posted by PackerRuss:
Agreed.... BJ is far from our worries. He is big, athletic, quick, and most team in the NFL will pay him what the Packers won't, if they decide to go that route.

Pickett isn't a spring chicken, and I could actually see, him falling off, or being done within the next year or two. So potentially, no Pickett or Raji, but we want to run the 3-4, YIKES! I hope we can put up 50+ points a game.

Absolutely. The biggest issue at hand at this point is thinking about bringing another guy in to pair with Raji in anticipation of Pickett being done at some point in the future. Hopefully he has another few years left.

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Up next: It's time to move Clay Matthews to QB

I'd like to see one drive of that, just for gits and shiggles.

If the Packers don't pay at LEAST top 10 money, he'll get paid elsewhere & probably top 5 money.

Hope we can re-sign him.

Why do I have the sinking feeling we're far away from another trophy

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Originally posted by packerboi:
When you have healthy players able to give Raji rotational help, it's all the difference for him...

Probably the best summation I've read thus far.
If Raji isn't a Top-5 NT, he's surely a Top-10.
I think fans of Raji/Packers not only expect him to dominate, but produce the sacks, forced fumbles, and/or pass defensed. That he has been able to do it in the past doesn't make him inconsistent, it means he was exceeding expectations and responsibility.
There should be a way to extend him without cap difficulty. I think it's critical to keep him; not only for his skills, but also to 'break-in' a potentially new ILB, as well as DE. Incidentally, Pickett is aging quickly, and a replacement for him will be needed within the next couple of years, increasing Raji's value to the DL that much more.

Can someone tell me what makes Raji a "top 5" or top "10" guy? If we are basing it on production, he most certainly is NOT. Not sure what games you guys were watching, but with the exception of the last 1/4 of the season, he was invisible. Not to mention his invisibility last year as well. If Raji played like he did in 2010 he would be worth what he will get paid and I would consider him top 10 or top 5 even, but he has been darn near non-existant for roughly 75% of his playing time.
That all being said, he certainly has the talent and skills to be one of the top big guys in the league, but something is missing......most of the time.

Like CMIII, opposing players had to HOLD HIM a lot.

Good NTs in Capers' system aren't overly visible on the stats sheet, they're enablers for the LBs. The NT's job is to clog lanes and dictate where the play goes so the linebackers can clean up. Of course it doesn't help when the inside linebackers are about as adroit at cleaning up as Pigpen.

BJ Raji isn't going anywhere.

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Originally posted by Herschel:
Good NTs in Capers' system aren't overly visible on the stats sheet, they're enablers for the LBs. The NT's job is to clog lanes and dictate where the play goes so the linebackers can clean up. Of course it doesn't help when the inside linebackers are about as adroit at cleaning up as Pigpen.

^^ Agreed.

Raji, at least the last three or four games where I made a point to watch him more often, got a really nice push up the middle. If you're basing your opinion of him solely on his stats, you're not seeing the whole picture.

I think the late season "resurgence" by Raji had more to do with Mike Neal than with Raji just elevating his play. I think Raji drew more attention from the offense because the younger guys and Neal weren't commanding attention. When Neal kind of "found his game" I think it opened things up for Raji. You can't just have 1 stud NT and 1 stud OLB, there have to be other players who can win 1on1's.

Raji isn't Vince Wilfork or JJ Watt, but he is good enough to win 1on1's a big % of the time. You hang on to players like that. Find a Cullen Jenkins to put next to him and you will produce like a top NT...put him with 3rd stringers like in 2011 and he will produce like a mediocre NT.

oh look, another sky is falling thread.

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Originally posted by Grave Digger:
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Raji isn't Vince Wilfork or JJ Watt, but he is good enough to win 1on1's a big % of the time. You hang on to players like that. Find a Cullen Jenkins to put next to him and you will produce like a top NT...put him with 3rd stringers like in 2011 and he will produce like a mediocre NT.

...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't both NE & Houston employ a 4-3 as their base defense (I know that NE flexes their defense quite a bit depending on opponent)& in the 4-3, the interior defensive lineman penetrate and just aren't there to "eat up blockers" like in a 3-4? If so, then of course other DT's in these schemes are going to "flash" more than Raji, since their scheme calls for it. With his quick initial burst, I still think Raji is better suited for the 4-3.

Get real about Raji ? Nick Collins is gone, Charles is nearing the end, Tramon's sex change aside, Raji is the second best player on this defense. A 3-4 NT isn't a splash player, even though Raji makes splash plays frequently, he has a thankless job. Raji is very good as as we all have witnessed... he is best when rested and has supporting talent.

Raji is very talented, a rare player that would be good in any scheme. He's very good in the 34 but would be Warren Sapp in a 43, dude has that blend of power, quicks and get off.

Pay him and eventually find Big Greases replacement.

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Originally posted by Packdog:
Get real about Raji ? Nick Collins is gone, Charles is nearing the end, Tramon's sex change aside, Raji is the second best player on this defense. A 3-4 NT isn't a splash player, even though Raji makes splash plays frequently, he has a thankless job. Raji is very good as as we all have witnessed... he is best when rested and has supporting talent.

Raji is very talented, a rare player that would be good in any scheme. He's very good in the 34 but would be Warren Sapp in a 43, dude has that blend of power, quicks and get off.

Pay him and eventually find Big Greases replacement.

Raji is a "rare" player?? Not sure how to respond to that except to say that, NO, he is not. Mark it down, someone is going to overpay for him, hope it aint us. That being said, we don't have even an average replacement for him, but it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Furthermore, for those who say all he should be doing is taking up blockers, are you saying we can't find a big strong NT with good leverage who has almost no pass rush skills for this job at a bargain price?? Raji had 16 freaking tackles this year......16!! We must have really low expectations for our defensive players....geez

Raji rushed OK for a player his size. No sacks, but he got decent pressure. That said, he's hardly resembled an elite player for most of his career. I'd hold off giving him a big extension.

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Originally posted by tundra_power:

Raji is a "rare" player??

What I meant was, it's rare for players to be good in any scheme, and he (IMO) would be even better in a 43.

He's a talented guy, and unfortunately the second best player on our defense.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Packdog:
, Raji is the second best player on this defense. QUOTE]


That my friend is the problem.....

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Originally posted by tundra_power:
Furthermore, for those who say all he should be doing is taking up blockers, are you saying we can't find a big strong NT with good leverage who has almost no pass rush skills for this job at a bargain price?? Raji had 16 freaking tackles this year......16!! We must have really low expectations for our defensive players....geez

Proof is in the pudding.

Give him a Finley contract. I personally am in the middle on this and think TT will look at the facts closely as well as evaluating what we don't see. I think it's also realistic to look for legit NT prospects in the upcoming draft as Pickett is getting up there and if more rotation/competition is needed so be it.

I think a Finley contract would make sense. You have talent and size, put up or shut up.

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Originally posted by Boris:
If the Packers don't pay at LEAST top 10 money, he'll get paid elsewhere & probably top 5 money.

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Originally posted by Henry:
Give him a Finley contract. I personally am in the middle on this and think TT will look at the facts closely as well as evaluating what we don't see. I think it's also realistic to look for legit NT prospects in the upcoming draft as Pickett is getting up there and if more rotation/competition is needed so be it.

I think a Finley contract would make sense. You have talent and size, put up or shut up.

This is more along the lines with my original intentions of this thread. Guy absolutely deserves top ten money and paying him as the 5th highest may not be ideal but could be reasonable, but he shouldn't be setting the top three market for the league, imo.

He has a ton of leverage as it stands now though and it may be tough for the Packers not to over pay. It's not one of those situations where you can just find another guy and plug him in there. He's certainly an extremely hard piece to replace and could get more than he's earned weakening the overall team when you have to let other talent go to keep him.

I'll also say I have absolutely no idea what top nose tackles are earning right now. Something worth looking into...