Give Mike a life time contract....no chance we could ever get a better coach.
Seriously, he is a good coach, nothing a bunch of better players can't fix. Get him that and he will be successful. A couple of tight ends, running backs, pass rushers and a fast, sure handed take the top off wide reciever should do it.
However, patience with Dom must have run out by now.....
It's nice that Bakh has not ruled out playing for himself. Unfortunately it isn't his call. I'm surprised they didn't put him on IR already.
Now that Buck Cheery is "out" it'll be fun seeing the Redskins sack Rodgers about 10 times on Sunday Night
Pikes Peak posted:Give Mike a life time contract....no chance we could ever get a better coach.
Yep. Took the words out of my mouth. If Mike is fired, so be it, the Green Bay Packers will continue to exist and I will support the new coach like I do McCarthy. I don't think firing McCarthy solves the problem, but I do believe McCarthy needs to make some changes to the team because the status quo has him below .500 more than halfway through the season. He's a winning coach though and GB doesn't need to dump him because he's going through a losing stretch. He needs to make some staff changes IMO, but "doing what he does" has yielded some really good results over many years.
If he fires Dom then so be it. My loyalty isn't with Dom Capers, it's with the GBP. Dom's defense is easily the weakest part of the team right now and I said it before this season: there is enough talent to field a top 10 D. No excuses for DC at this point.
We've been calling for a new DC for a few years now. It's pretty obvious.
But no....let's continue to "do what we do". No pressure. If we win, hey great! If we lose....well....
That presser screams of a leader with no faith in his plan going forward. Defending the plan going forward, a plan that has clearly not worked for the past 22 games, with what you once did is not the sign of a strong leader. He's done, and the Packers will be lucky to make it to 7 wins this season.
They won't make it to 5 wins. On present form, this is the worst team in the NFL.
Sure a lot of negativity around here. This is what happens when you believe polls.
Pikes Peak posted:Give Mike a life time contract....no chance we could ever get a better coach.
Seriously, he is a good coach, nothing a bunch of better players can't fix. Get him that and he will be successful. A couple of tight ends, running backs, pass rushers and a fast, sure handed take the top off wide reciever should do it.
However, patience with Dom must have run out by now.....
I know I am in the minority but I think MM is a very good coach and I would bet good money that around the league he is held in very high regard. I say give the guy some help and give it a try for one more year. Too often these days as fans we want to "fire them now!" but need to look at the big picture.
Pikes, as you said he needs players and if he has players he can do things so lets take a honest look at that part and what he is facing.
At RB he is down to starting a WR who has only played a couple of games in the NFL. Think about that for second a WR has to start at WR. it will help having Starks back and you will start to see a change in the running game if he is healthy.
TE. do we really need to talk about that? when was the last time the Packers got a big game out of that position? Finley?? and the hail mary in Detroit doesn't count.
Receivers. The issue is that they cannot get open. Well why is that? because the Packers are zero threat to run the ball. When the D doesn't even have to gameplan for your running game their job has gotten really easy. I don't care who is playing QB ad what plays you call, if they only have to worry about you passing you wont win.
I also have run out of patience with Dom. His defenses are historically bad and when you are getting gashed week after week sooner or later it has to change and I am of the opinion that the change they HAVE to make is at DC. One thought is that Dom is 66 and perhaps he may call it a day after this year.
"Receivers. The issue is that they cannot get open."
The film shows that this is not the case. Rodgers is not throwing to the open man.
The buck stops with McCarthy. Or so that's how he likes to project his authority.
The problem is Dom has been a mess for years now. We can all see that. Since the Denver game last year this entire team has been a mess.
We can all subscribe to the "give him a chance" theory, but for a guy spouting off about being highly successful he has no recent baseline for making that comment. Right now, this team is playing like a 5-11 team and has been for many games.
McCarthy has inherited a once in generational QB talent in Rodgers. That's a fact. But he's not some coaching genius. He's Bobby Cox and even good old Bobby Cox got stale.
FMc... three years ago!
McCarthy has inherited a once in generational QB talent in Rodgers.
Problem is, the "great" QB talent has degraded.
There is a small part of me that would love to see Aaron Rodgers go elsewhere, land with a real OC, and tear the league to shreds again.
I'd rather read how stupid GB was for letting a HOF QB go for the next 10 years than read how Aaron Rodgers is the problem in GB for the rest of this year.
No one said he is the only problem. He needs better talent around him than he used to. The decision to go with Starks and Lacy was a huge mistake. Thinking Cook was the magic answer was another huge mistake. Keeping 3 QB's and 7 receivers has turned out to be a huge mistake.
The defense should be playing a lot better no matter who the coach is. To me it appears they have just mailed it in. Peppers should have been cut before he got on the plane from Tennessee. He has obviously quit. Not sure what they can do with the DB's. Too many 3rd and 4th stringers there.
The Heckler posted:I also have run out of patience with Dom.
Me too. His defenses are historically up & down. The thing that really irks me is when he starts getting gashed he just continually "sticks to the plan". He has blinders on. He's 66 & I believe the game has passed him by. You either move forward & change or you become stagnant & fade away.
Goalline posted:They won't make it to 5 wins. On present form, this is the worst team in the NFL.
Pffft. I think they end up 3-13
This is not a recent issue. This has been going on since early in 2015. Initially it was attributed to Nelson being gone but it continued through 2015, and it is very apparent in 2016. There is a problem with Rodgers and his accuracy, and when they went to lots of short routes he improved. Unfortunately, it seem McCarthy took that to mean Rodgers' problem was fixed and he has gone back to the deep, longer developing routes.
If McCarthy wants to back-up his "I've been a highly successful NFL coach" comment, he needs be successful again, starting Sunday night.
Great leaders put their people in a position to succeed.
McCarthy calls the plays and there are options for Rodgers to switch the play up based on the defense, so limit those options to Rodgers.
Stubborn and Stale is no way to go through a NFL season.
I don't think anyone has said Rodgers is THE problem, but it's undeniable that his play has been A problem at times. He had some accuracy issues he's dealt with on and off this season and too often he holds the ball far longer than necessary. He's also dealing with inconsistencies at WR, RB, and TE and injuries on the OL. That's not his fault, but there are issues from the QB position.
Rodgers statement about players not having a healthy fear was a shot at McCarthy and Thompson IMO. I think he's seeing that players are not being held accountable for a lack of preparation, execution, or availability. That's an issue McCarthy has to solve immediately. If you create a culture where players are not afraid to slack off during the week, take plays off, or spend too much time on the trainers table then this is the production you're going to get from your team. McCarthy needs to evaluate how the staff is dealing with their groups, what they're allowing, and whether they are the right coaches for the personnel.
CAPackFan95 posted:Goalline posted:They won't make it to 5 wins. On present form, this is the worst team in the NFL.
Pffft. I think they end up 3-13
Where do you get the 3rd win?
Boris posted:The Heckler posted:I also have run out of patience with Dom.
Me too. His defenses are historically up & down. The thing that really irks me is when he starts getting gashed he just continually "sticks to the plan". He has blinders on. He's 66 & I believe the game has passed him by. You either move forward & change or you become stagnant & fade away.
How Dom succeeds: his defense has just about every starter healthy and playing. And he coordinates with a 10 point lead early.
How MM succeeds: His HOF QB plays lights out and at an all pro level to mask the deficiencies in play calling, scheme, and clock management.
For far too long that's what's been required for those 2 to win.
Grave Digger posted:I don't think anyone has said Rodgers is THE problem, but it's undeniable that his play has been A problem at times. He had some accuracy issues he's dealt with on and off this season and too often he holds the ball far longer than necessary. He's also dealing with inconsistencies at WR, RB, and TE and injuries on the OL. That's not his fault, but there are issues from the QB position.
Rodgers statement about players not having a healthy fear was a shot at McCarthy and Thompson IMO. I think he's seeing that players are not being held accountable for a lack of preparation, execution, or availability. That's an issue McCarthy has to solve immediately. If you create a culture where players are not afraid to slack off during the week, take plays off, or spend too much time on the trainers table then this is the production you're going to get from your team. McCarthy needs to evaluate how the staff is dealing with their groups, what they're allowing, and whether they are the right coaches for the personnel.
Look no further than Lacy. It would disgust me if my teammate showed such little self discipline, & I would be looking at my coach wondering how he put up with it.
It's true. I think McCarthy thought it was an issue with Sam Gash not pushing Lacy, but it seems the new RB coach couldn't get through to him either.
Seeing young guys struggle with being professional is one thing, it's hard for me to understand the regression of Rodgers technique though. He's 34, he shouldn't be playing with worse fundamentals as he gets older. He should be relying on physical ability less and technique more, but he's throwing too many balls flat footed and he's not going through his progressions. His timing is hit or miss with receivers, which seems odd considering this group has been healthy and practicing all season.
FLPACKER posted:Grave Digger posted:I don't think anyone has said Rodgers is THE problem, but it's undeniable that his play has been A problem at times. He had some accuracy issues he's dealt with on and off this season and too often he holds the ball far longer than necessary. He's also dealing with inconsistencies at WR, RB, and TE and injuries on the OL. That's not his fault, but there are issues from the QB position.
Rodgers statement about players not having a healthy fear was a shot at McCarthy and Thompson IMO. I think he's seeing that players are not being held accountable for a lack of preparation, execution, or availability. That's an issue McCarthy has to solve immediately. If you create a culture where players are not afraid to slack off during the week, take plays off, or spend too much time on the trainers table then this is the production you're going to get from your team. McCarthy needs to evaluate how the staff is dealing with their groups, what they're allowing, and whether they are the right coaches for the personnel.
Look no further than Lacy. It would disgust me if my teammate showed such little self discipline, & I would be looking at my coach wondering how he put up with it.
Lacy is one. Peppers is another. What more would RichRod have to do to get benched? Don't underestimate the Janis! effect. The guy clearly has the athletic ability to play in the NFL, yet here we are three years in and the guy still can't run routes at an NFL level (per several comments from people who look at film review). I think that's what Rodgers comments about Abby looking so good in training camp were about.
The draft and develop philosophy works very well if you hit on some street or undrafted free agents and D6 and D7 type guys. In that case, you are paying minimum money to guys playing big roles for 4 years (Tramon Williams and Sam Shields are good examples, but so are Frank Zombo, Howard Green, and Desmond Bishop) - that's 5 guys who played mega-roles on the 2010 Super Bowl defense who were playing for basically minimum salary (along with Starks as the RB). When you do that you free up money to extend guys early and supplement with a Woodson or Peppers.
When you try playing the same type of guys that just aren't good enough, the philosophy falls apart. You end up with UDFAs all over your secondary that aren't NFL caliber players right now. You hang onto teases like Janis!
What made TT and MM so successful was about 4-5 things happening simultaneously.
1. He had the balls to draft AR in 2005 when they still had Favre. Yes, he fell into their laps, but they still had to pull the trigger. And then they had the balls to play AR instead of an aging, but still talented, Favre in 2008.
2. They got 2 impact players on defense in the 2009 draft (Raji and CM3). I think people forget how good Raji was when he was younger and hungry.
3. Woodson exceeded all expectations and clinched a HOF berth.
4. They had 2 of their 3 top CBs emerge from being UDFAs into Pro Bowl-type players (Tramon and Shields)
5. Collins developed into a damn good safety by that point. His injury probably had as much to do with not getting to another Super Bowl than any other issue the Packers had in 2011-2014. Dix and Burnett are decent players, but Collins was Butler-esque by that point.
They still have Rodgers, they've gotten Mike Daniels, but other than that who's the impact player on defense? CM3 is constantly recovering from an injury or playing ILB. Peppers was good in 2014, but he's almost invisible at this point. Their UDFA CBs just aren't very good and have been thrown into the fire without the time to learn proper technique.
The injuries haven't helped that's for sure. When CMIII doesn't play this D isn't very effective. Peppers has fallen off the map but Perry has been really good. On offense, not having a running threat (Lacy) or deep threat (pre-injury Jordy) makes a difference.
Still, the OL is very good, the QB is obviously good, the core WRs are solid, and the DL and safeties are decent. If Rollins and Randall and Shields were healthy that group is pretty good as well.
Outside of the Washington and AZ playoff games last year I just don't see the energy and enthusiasm and mojo over the last 20 games or so. They are flat, disinterested, and seem to be going through the motions. The body language has been awful.
Grave Digger posted:It's true. I think McCarthy thought it was an issue with Sam Gash not pushing Lacy, but it seems the new RB coach couldn't get through to him either.
Seeing young guys struggle with being professional is one thing, it's hard for me to understand the regression of Rodgers technique though. He's 34, he shouldn't be playing with worse fundamentals as he gets older.
He has aged more than I thought.
MM is going nowhere. TT will not fire him. He's not made that way.
Only way change happens is if Murphy convinces the board it's time for TT to go.
McCarthy has had 1 losIng season. Even if this one ends up losing, which means we won't win at least 4 more, I don't see him pulling the plug.
TT is just as much to blame for this mess. Dumping Sitton and Masthay, only carrying two RB, drafting DikkRod who has been a failure (granted it's not his fault Cook got hurt)....lots of blame to go around.
MM should be accountable for Compers. The guy has been a disaster most of his time here, and it's been covered up because Rodgers and the offense. Rodgers is in a career defining slump and we can no longer outscore our $hitty defense.
Sitton????? Masthay?????
GBFanForLife posted:Sure a lot of negativity around here. This is what happens when you believe polls.
Aaron Ripkowski disagrees.
Josh Sitton wouldn't have made much difference in my opinion. It would be nice to have him, but he was a luxury at almost 7 million a year.
The one I bet they'd like to have back is Casey Hayward. You could have argued they should have known Shields was a huge risk given his multiple concussion history. I guess they thought they had Randall and Rollins, but you can never have too many good (at least above average) DBs, especially at the 5 million a year Hayward got. Hayward played slot corner very well and they knew he'd use proper technique and be in the right place. The dropoff to Hyde is steep, but I'm not one of those guys that thinks that Hyde doesn't have any value. At least when he gets beat, it's not because he makes mental mistake or uses poor technique, it's just that he physically gets beat (like the TD when he was singled up on the outside no Sunday). Guys are running wide open in the secondary the last few weeks because young, inexperienced DBs who aren't ready to play from a fundamentals standpoint have to play (Hawkins against the Lions, etc.) or are just not playing the right coverage.
The few players mentioned in the last 3-4 posts wouldn't make a difference in the troubles this team is dealing with. There is enough talent still on the team to be more competitive than they've been the past 2 games. Rodgers mentioned an issue with energy after the KO TD last week, other players had similar comments as well. In (I think) last Wednesday's presser McCarthy mentioned this is the most energetic team they've had. Then they come out completely flat vs a very beatable TEN team. McCarthy may not have lost the entire locker room, but sure seems like he is disconnected from the pulse.
If you listen to the 3-4 minute response where he started with his highly successful comment, he was on his heals the whole time. He talked about players being out of position on 3 or 4 of the TDs and he knows he did not have them ready. Yet, only 4 days earlier he said this was the most energetic team they've had, and then they were flat on the 75 yard TD and everything after that.
He's at a loss for answers.
But, maybe he surprises and finds some lower gear and puts these guys in position to succeed. The players are struggling, it is the coaches who have to help them get through that. Coaches coach and players play, so coach them!
Grave Digger postedDom's defense is easily the weakest part of the team right now and I said it before this season: there is enough talent to field a top 10 D. No excuses for DC at this point.
What "Top-10 defense talent" is there?
Daniels is under-sized but disruptive, good player when he's not being stupid.
Matthews is a versatile difference-maker, when healthy, which is not too often lately.
Burnett is solid, if unspectacular.
Clinton-Dix is still very inconsistent.
Shields, if healthy, is a solid CB.
And a bunch of guys at this point. That's essentially 1 1/2 top players, a couple more good ones and various flavors of chum.
MichiganPacker posted:Josh Sitton wouldn't have made much difference in my opinion. It would be nice to have him, but he was a luxury at almost 7 million a year.
With Sitton, though, it may be as much the message as it is the playing ability. Guys like Sitton and Lang have been stalwarts on the team and I'm not sure jettisoning him played well in the locker room. Hayward became a free agent organically after playing out his contract. That may be an important difference.
Martinez and Ryan have been playing well. I know a lot of people dislike Ryan because they expected him to be some sort of superstar his rookie year. The front 7 as a whole need to be better rushing the passer or getting their arms up to knock the ****ing ball down.
Herschel posted:What "Top-10 defense talent" is there?
Daniels is under-sized but disruptive, good player when he's not being stupid.
Matthews is a versatile difference-maker, when healthy, which is not too often lately.
Burnett is solid, if unspectacular.
Clinton-Dix is still very inconsistent.
Shields, if healthy, is a solid CB.
And a bunch of guys at this point. That's essentially 1 1/2 top players, a couple more good ones and various flavors of chum.
When Packer fans feel positive they overrate the team's talent, but when they feel negative then everyone sucks and there are no playmakers. The coaches suck, the players suck, the front office sucks blah blah blah.
The coaches suck, the players suck, the front office sucks blah blah blah.
Now you're getting it.
Look at the drafts post Super Bowl.
2011 - Cobb and flaming garbage. It's hard to fully appreciate the disaster that draft was.
2012 - Perry is a guy. Worthy is garbage. Daniels is nice. Hayward was little more than a guy yet would be a huge upgrade today. Ugh.
2013 - Another 1st round whiff. Bak and Lacy are nice, but that's about it.
2014 - HaHa and Adams. Thornton a huge whiff. Nothing else that couldn't be easily replace off the waiver wire.
2015 - Early. Some solid looking guys, but I don't see huge impact.
2016 - Super early. But, looking like another bust in 1st. LBs seem to best picks.
Who is the difference maker here? I don't see a one. There's several nice starters like Cobb, Daniels, Bak, and Haha. Some promising looking LBs last 2 years. Beyond that? Nothing but a bunch of guys and a lot of busts.
If you are gonna be a draft and develop team, and generally eschew the shiny Free Agents, then you gotta hit on draft picks more often than not, and it's imperative to hit significantly more often than not in the first 2-3 rounds. And, frankly, the drafts have not produced much more than a handful of nice solid starters you wouldn't want to give up. There's not a star in the last 6 drafts I can see.
Is that an issue of talent assessment, or coaching development? Not sure. Either way, while I wouldn't say there's no talent here, I think stepping back objectively, the Packers have not drafted a great player in a long time. I think it's 09 and CMIII.
You don't need 22 great players to win a SB.
Great post CAPackFan. The 2011 and 2012 guys are what should be the core of the team - guys just re-upped for their second contracts. Davon House was a decent D4 in 2011, but you're right, the rest of 2011 was awful.
Contrast that with the drafts that produced the Super Bowl team. There were 7 "stars" for their position from that group - Rodgers, Collins, CM3, Jordy, Finley, Sitton, and Lang.
2010: Bulaga, Neal, Burnett, Quarless, and Starks. 5 solid players, no stars.
2009: Raji, CM3, Lang, and Brad Jones: 3 Pro Bowl level players and a solid D7
2008: Jordy, Finley, Sitton, and Matt Flynn. 3 Pro Bowl level players and a solid D7
2007: B. Jackson, James Jones, Bishop, and Crosby. Two solid players (JJ and Bishop), a round 2 RB who was adequate, and a good kicker)
2006: Hawk, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Jolly. A really good draft even if Hawk never played to a top 5 level.
2005: Rodgers and Nick Collins and virtually nothing else.
Pro Bowls for 2005-2010 draftees: 23
Pro Bowls for 2011-16 draftees: 2 (Cobb in 2014 and Lacy in 2013. That's it. I realize it's early for many of those draft classes, but does anyone really see Pro Bowls in the future for the 2011-16 guys? Maybe Bak or Daniels?
