Grave Digger posted:You don't need 22 great players to win a SB.
You need 4-5 (Rodgers, CM3, Woodson, Jennings, Collins) with a bunch of other guys who will play well enough not to get you beat.
****ing Pro Bowls. That is what they need. A ****ing popularity contest.
How am I the one arguing Dom has enough talent and should be producing better? Welcome to Trump's America.
Might as well just ****ing give up. It is over.
"The Green Bay Packers plummeted down the USA Today NFL Power Rankings yet again"
MichiganPacker posted:Great post CAPackFan. The 2011 and 2012 guys are what should be the core of the team - guys just re-upped for their second contracts. Davon House was a decent D4 in 2011, but you're right, the rest of 2011 was awful.
Contrast that with the drafts that produced the Super Bowl team. There were 7 "stars" for their position from that group - Rodgers, Collins, CM3, Jordy, Finley, Sitton, and Lang.
2010: Bulaga, Neal, Burnett, Quarless, and Starks. 5 solid players, no stars.
2009: Raji, CM3, Lang, and Brad Jones: 3 Pro Bowl level players and a solid D7
2008: Jordy, Finley, Sitton, and Matt Flynn. 3 Pro Bowl level players and a solid D7
2007: B. Jackson, James Jones, Bishop, and Crosby. Two solid players (JJ and Bishop), a round 2 RB who was adequate, and a good kicker)
2006: Hawk, Colledge, Jennings, Spitz, Blackmon, Jolly. A really good draft even if Hawk never played to a top 5 level.
2005: Rodgers and Nick Collins and virtually nothing else.
Pro Bowls for 2005-2010 draftees: 23
Pro Bowls for 2011-16 draftees: 2 (Cobb in 2014 and Lacy in 2013. That's it. I realize it's early for many of those draft classes, but does anyone really see Pro Bowls in the future for the 2011-16 guys? Maybe Bak or Daniels?
Good posts MichiganPacker and CAPackfan95.
Some strong evidence that the talent has dropped off. When the draft and UDFA is your primary talent pool, you'd better hit. They haven't exactly lit the world on fire with UDFA lately either, some promising "potential", but nothing like Shields, Tramon , etc....
Wonder how much of the drop-off in draft results is due to losing the talents of John Dorsey, John Schnieder, and Reggie McKenzie ??
Grave Digger posted:You don't need 22 great players to win a SB.
Who is the great player that has been added to this roster the last 6 years through the draft?
GBFanForLife posted:Might as well just ****ing give up. It is over.
"The Green Bay Packers plummeted down the USA Today NFL Power Rankings yet again"
Thanks for the strawmen. Really helpful and brings a lot to the conversation. But I guess it's easier than, you know, actually making a point or bringing some actual positions, to the conversation.
When you are down to your 4th and 5th corner and your starting RB and primary backup RB I would say that's a problem.
Nothing you can do about the corners that's ****ed up with or without Hayward.
RBs? Probably should have had a third option but again what #3 option is starter quality?
TE has been a mess for years now and we get a legit player and he gets hurt for several weeks. **** us all.
That all being said - top to bottom is the current talent on this team like Cleveland? Because that's how they are playing and have been for over a year.
CAPackFan95 posted:Grave Digger posted:You don't need 22 great players to win a SB.
Who is the great player that has been added to this roster the last 6 years through the draft?
Mike Daniels. Top 100 NFL player.
GBFanForLife posted:No one said he is the only problem. He needs better talent around him than he used to. The decision to go with Starks and Lacy was a huge mistake. Thinking Cook was the magic answer was another huge mistake. Keeping 3 QB's and 7 receivers has turned out to be a huge mistake.
The defense should be playing a lot better no matter who the coach is. To me it appears they have just mailed it in. Peppers should have been cut before he got on the plane from Tennessee. He has obviously quit. Not sure what they can do with the DB's. Too many 3rd and 4th stringers there.
GBFanForLife posted:Martinez and Ryan have been playing well. I know a lot of people dislike Ryan because they expected him to be some sort of superstar his rookie year. The front 7 as a whole need to be better rushing the passer or getting their arms up to knock the ****ing ball down.
You didn't read page 2?
If people understood the rules they would do better.
It is OK to hate on the QB, not OK to hate on the staff
Are these rules actually posted anywhere? If not was that a coaching decision?
Right now, the only one off limits is Murphy. Quite frankly, his irrelevance to the product of the field gives him a pass.
How about that Titletown District?
The Titletown District is just another money grab by the Packers.
El-Ka-Bong posted:If people understood the rules they would do better.
It is OK to hate on the QB, not OK to hate on the staff
No hate for the QB. He just isn't playing well. As far as the coaches, firing after 9 games will solve nothing.
Murphy is honoring Favre at halftime of the next home game for agreeing to move his steakhouse to Titletown.
That is something I could see the Packers actually doing.
PackFoo posted:MM is going nowhere. TT will not fire him. He's not made that way.
Only way change happens is if Murphy convinces the board it's time for TT to go.
McCarthy has had 1 losIng season. Even if this one ends up losing, which means we won't win at least 4 more, I don't see him pulling the plug.
TT is just as much to blame for this mess. Dumping Sitton and Masthay, only carrying two RB, drafting DikkRod who has been a failure (granted it's not his fault Cook got hurt)....lots of blame to go around.
MM should be accountable for Compers. The guy has been a disaster most of his time here, and it's been covered up because Rodgers and the offense. Rodgers is in a career defining slump and we can no longer outscore our $hitty defense.
Packfoo, you hit on some points I have been wanting to say. I know many of us want MM gone but I do not think this is TT way of operating to push the panic button quickly and the organization won't either. It just is not how they operate right or wrong it just is how they work things. I am sure there are reviews of everyone taking place and I am sure they will be held accountable in some way. But they cannot listen to the fans they just cannot do that.
All that being said, I completely agree that MM that MM is accountable for Capers and his horrific defenses. The defenses he has put on the field just haven't been anywhere even remotely near what you need to win. Sure injuries hurt and this team has had a TON of them but his deficiencies on defense is nothing new.
Grave Digger posted:You don't need 22 great players to win a SB.
And I think that's why the whole thing is becoming a house of cards. Neither side of the FO/coaching staff seems to be able to support each other if they hit some adversity football.
I agree you don't need to hit on a bunch of superstars, just one or two guys every couple of years to give you a punch while your coaching staff puts together a cohesive/stable scheme while also being able to coach up average to scrub like players.
One problem to note, some of the big name picks which started off so well flame out quick. So part of it comes down to a WTF proposition with good players laying down.
The Heckler posted:Packfoo, you hit on some points I have been wanting to say. I know many of us want MM gone but I do not think this is TT way of operating to push the panic button quickly and the organization won't either. It just is not how they operate right or wrong it just is how they work things. I am sure there are reviews of everyone taking place and I am sure they will be held accountable in some way. But they cannot listen to the fans they just cannot do that.
But this is the problem and the reason why I personally think these guys are done. If the radar wasn't pegged after the Seattle loss moving forward that in itself speaks to how stale the whole situation has become. I'm of the belief that it isn't so much they ignored it out of arrogance but simply all attempts to correct are failing.
I don't think it's a vindictive thing to say something broke approaching two years ago and the attempt to self correct made it worse. That's a pretty healthy time span for judging the situation and what we see this year is a death spiral.
After the SEA game they started 2015 at 6-0... since then they have looked like DET.
9-12 over the last 21 including the 1-1 playoffs in 2015.
Thompson booting McCarthy and staff now would be out of character for him and could be considered a panic move. With 7 games left, I think at worst they could go 5-2 and McCarthy gets another year. 4-3, with the same ol' same ol' effort, puts them at 8-8 on 2016 and 13-15 since early last year, with clear signs of no answers from the coaches... I'd not consider a change then being a panic move.
McCarthy's defensive tone in his presser tells me he knows the deal.
The Packers have descended into mediocrity despite the efforts of Aaron Rodgers
“I don’t see any drop-off in Rodgers’s game,” said one NFL assistant coach who recently reviewed Rodgers. “He’s still doing the same stuff that’s made him great for years. I’d look at the surrounding cast, the loss of [Eddie] Lacy in the run game, dropped balls. But Rodgers is still creating with his feet, getting the ball out quick, can put the ball on the money from just about anywhere. Their struggles can be attributed to about 50 other things until Rodgers would even come up.”
Really don't agree with that analysis. All fair points but really minimizes the poor play of AR.
Rodgers like everyone needs to play better.
The longer this goes on, the more I tend to consider the opinion that others have voiced regarding AR & the team in general have lost confidence in MM. Coach K at Duke used to talk about the concept that complete belief by players can raise a team's level of play & vise versa lower it. In Lombardi's first speech to his team he talked about why the team would have confidence in him. Have losing the heartbreaking playoff games, a refusal to adjust his passing scheme, and curious playing time decisions resulted in an irreversible lack of belief on the players part?
Grave Digger posted:You don't need 22 great players to win a SB.
I don't think anyone is claiming you do, but it does take a few to put you over the hump usually and the Packers are lacking difference makers. They mitigate weaknesses in the players around them with their play and ability.
When the game is on the line, who makes the play? Where's the pass rusher that harrasses the QB all game long? Where's the corner or safety you don't want to throw at? Where's the linebacker who hunts you down wherever you run? Where's the receiver you scheme against specifically game-in/game-out? Where's the RB that makes you load the box?
Without those exceptional players, you have to be stronger all around. That means multiple good pass rushers if none are great, multiple d-backs who are all a tough beat, etc. Just guys can't make up that difference.
I don't agree that he's been right on the money, we've seen more than a few very suspect passes that even he knew were his fault. The question is whether the issue is his accuracy or a timing issue with receivers. He may be putting on the money, but the receivers are not where he expects them to be. It could be an issue of having a receiver group with a low football IQ or poor preparation that just aren't seeing the voids in coverage or aren't reading the coverage right pre-snap. There may be some legitimacy to it being a pre-snap read issue because these issues seemed to pop up when Bennett was no longer the WR coach. If that is the issue then there's a simple solution: make Bennett go back to being WR coach!
michiganjoe posted:The Packers have descended into mediocrity despite the efforts of Aaron Rodgers
“I don’t see any drop-off in Rodgers’s game,” said one NFL assistant coach who recently reviewed Rodgers. “He’s still doing the same stuff that’s made him great for years. I’d look at the surrounding cast, the loss of [Eddie] Lacy in the run game, dropped balls. But Rodgers is still creating with his feet, getting the ball out quick, can put the ball on the money from just about anywhere. Their struggles can be attributed to about 50 other things until Rodgers would even come up.”
Really don't agree with that analysis. All fair points but really minimizes the poor play of AR.
what a load of crap. the guy's freaking blind if he doesn't see the drop-off. between the inaccuracy and not seeing the open receiver there's a lot AR could do better. heck, even getting the snap off in a timely fashion would be an improvement.
Rodgers couldn't hit aunt fanny in the ass with a beanbag right now.
Bring back the receiver on the back of the motorcycle drill.
It's professional football. Mike Shanahan won 2 Super Bowl titles in Denver. "So what?" the Bronco's owner said. And he was right.
Although I do believe the players have stopped listening to MM I don't believe that its all his fault. The GM and his philosophy is a large part of the problem. Being bullish on the draft is fine. Being too stubborn to augment obvious weaknesses through anything other than draft picks and un-drafted FA's has had a negative effect. Watching Quinten Rollins this year isn't encouraging. He's been G-awful. with a year under his belt. He's got that Aaron Rouse look about him. The type that will be quietly waived during next years bye week. A 2nd RD pick.
I have high hopes for Hundley but the UCLA love fest is iffy too.
Did someone in this thread say that Mike Holmgren had 2 franchise QB's??!! They must have been counting his time in San Francisco because that ain't Matt Hassleback.
Matt Hasselbeck was a franchise QB in his prime. He's not an all-time great or a HOFer, but he had a fine career with a lot of playoff experience and SB appearance.
Denver's situation in 2011 and GB's situation is apples/oranges. Shannahan was 44-52 in his final 6 years with 1 playoff appearance. This wasn't a sudden wall that Denver hit where Shanny became stale, it was a downward spiral for 6 years running. McCarthy is 60-28 over the last 5.5 season and hasn't missed the playoffs yet. Although we are under .500 now, we haven't actually seen McCarthy have a losing season in the last 9 years. Denver also had to schlog through a couple bad years where they made a terrible decision to raid the Belichick tree for the front office and HC until Elway came aboard and hired an experienced and successful HC in John Fox (whose owner fired him after he thought the team had tuned him out and he was washed up btw).
michiganjoe posted:The Packers have descended into mediocrity despite the efforts of Aaron Rodgers
“I don’t see any drop-off in Rodgers’s game,” said one NFL assistant coach who recently reviewed Rodgers. “He’s still doing the same stuff that’s made him great for years. I’d look at the surrounding cast, the loss of [Eddie] Lacy in the run game, dropped balls. But Rodgers is still creating with his feet, getting the ball out quick, can put the ball on the money from just about anywhere. Their struggles can be attributed to about 50 other things until Rodgers would even come up.”
Really don't agree with that analysis. All fair points but really minimizes the poor play of AR.
He's missed some throws, but can you imagine what the Packers would have been the last 21 games if you replaced Rodgers with even an average QB? If they would have played Hundley, Tolzien, or Flynn they'd be a lot worse than 9-12. They have played essentially with no NFL caliber TE or RB for large stretches the last 21 games.
They've thrown 130 passes to RichRod in 2015-2016. The average YPA is 5.7. He's had 5 catches for more than 20 yards out of 130. The YPA on passes thrown Finley in his career was 8.6. Even Quarless had a YPA of passes thrown to him of 6.7 (and he was an excellent blocker). Mark Chmura was 8.0. Donald Lee was 6.7.
TEs are important and we don't have one. Look at the elite TEs in the league in terms of YPA on passes thrown to the in their careers. Gronk (9.9), Greg Olsen (7.3).
RichRod can't block worth **** and slow LBs like AJ Hawk can cover him. And when was the last time he broke a tackle? Imagine how much better our receivers would look if they ran a good TE out there. Maybe Cooks can be that.
FLPACKER posted:The longer this goes on, the more I tend to consider the opinion that others have voiced regarding AR & the team in general have lost confidence in MM. Coach K at Duke used to talk about the concept that complete belief by players can raise a team's level of play & vise versa lower it. In Lombardi's first speech to his team he talked about why the team would have confidence in him. Have losing the heartbreaking playoff games, a refusal to adjust his passing scheme, and curious playing time decisions resulted in an irreversible lack of belief on the players part?
Yes
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sitting here wishing for losses but if this season goes into the complete schitter and this team goes, say, 5-11 or 6-10 maybe what this team needs is to get into a high draft slot much like they did in 2009.
When you look around the league, sans NE, and see where successful teams are like Dallas, Seattle a few years back, Carolina, etc it's no secret they benefited from being in drafts where they were picking in the top 10 each round.
Just maybe GB needs a season where they can pluck a top 10 pick, and essentially get another 1st round level pick by choosing in the top 10 of the second round and so on.
Certainly Ted struck gold with getting Raji and then CMIII in the same draft. Ted's been drafting in the bottom of the rounds for years now and unfortunately, he's missing more than he's finding gems.
Sometimes you need a draft where you get to pick more of a sure thing. Lord knows plenty of other teams have done it and are now benefiting from it.
Clay Matthews and Jared Cook will practice today. "Those guys will be limited from the starting point," Packers coach Mike McCarthy said.
David Bakhtiari (knee) will be limited in practice today, while T.J. Lang will be in the rehab group. Packers coach Mike McCarthy couldn't say whether the starting offensive linemen would be available for Sunday's game at Washington. "We'll see how it goes today and tomorrow," coach Mike McCarthy said.
And this gem....
McCarthy: "You have to run the football" -- Packers have dropped back to pass on 71.4% of plays, 2nd highest in the league this season
MichiganPacker posted:He's missed some throws, but can you imagine what the Packers would have been the last 21 games if you replaced Rodgers with even an average QB? If they would have played Hundley, Tolzien, or Flynn they'd be a lot worse than 9-12. They have played essentially with no NFL caliber TE or RB for large stretches the last 21 games.
They've thrown 130 passes to RichRod in 2015-2016. The average YPA is 5.7. He's had 5 catches for more than 20 yards out of 130. The YPA on passes thrown Finley in his career was 8.6. Even Quarless had a YPA of passes thrown to him of 6.7 (and he was an excellent blocker). Mark Chmura was 8.0. Donald Lee was 6.7.
TEs are important and we don't have one. Look at the elite TEs in the league in terms of YPA on passes thrown to the in their careers. Gronk (9.9), Greg Olsen (7.3).RichRod can't block worth **** and slow LBs like AJ Hawk can cover him. And when was the last time he broke a tackle? Imagine how much better our receivers would look if they ran a good TE out there. Maybe Cooks can be that.
Great point.
Perhaps the worst starter at his position in the NFL, but RichRod is reliable and available each week, just like Hawk was unfortunately.
RR will never be more than just a guy with his obvious lack of athleticism, yet some of the faithful will continue to point to his catches and TDs (in an offense that has no rushing TDs by a RB) and insist he is not all that bad just like they did by pointing to all the tackles Hawk made.
DickRod was a horrible miss by TT. You invest a pick that high in the position and you need to do a lot better than that.