I believe coaches develop just like players, no doubt. The problem is Campen is just kind of there. I'll put the blame at MM's feet as well. If Campen can get this line to adequately pass block and improve the run blocking I'll give him kudos.
I never blamed him entirely for the run game because TT was drafting pass catcher RBs but there was slim to none as far as running lanes. Right now high praise for Campen is "adequate" in my mind.
Barbre sucked. Giacomini was thought to have potential and was snatched before he was given a chance to fully develop. He did well pretty quick in Seattle, so it's not a stretch to think he got something out of his time in Green Bay.
Sitton and Lang were both 4th round picks from small colleges. They were not ready made NFL linemen when they arrived. I think Sitton would have worked out no matter what. I give Campen far more credit for Lang, who has played more spots on the line than he hasn't.
No one thought Marshall was any good when he was thrown into the fire after Clifton got hurt, but he held his own. I doubt any coach could have gotten more from him. Barclay wasn't even drafted, and had to adjust to the pro game in a huge hurry. You have to give Campen some credit for that.
Quality players on the line have been in short supply over Campen's entire coaching career. Even when the starters looked good, depth has been terrible. They have suffered numerous injuries. They have had to shuffle players over and over - and yet the Packers still put up huge numbers.
I think Campen deserves better than he gets.
Sitton and Lang were both 4th round picks from small colleges. They were not ready made NFL linemen when they arrived. I think Sitton would have worked out no matter what. I give Campen far more credit for Lang, who has played more spots on the line than he hasn't.
No one thought Marshall was any good when he was thrown into the fire after Clifton got hurt, but he held his own. I doubt any coach could have gotten more from him. Barclay wasn't even drafted, and had to adjust to the pro game in a huge hurry. You have to give Campen some credit for that.
Quality players on the line have been in short supply over Campen's entire coaching career. Even when the starters looked good, depth has been terrible. They have suffered numerous injuries. They have had to shuffle players over and over - and yet the Packers still put up huge numbers.
I think Campen deserves better than he gets.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:
Complete bull****. Campen came on staff as the guy that was going to implement ZBS after being in Atlanta
Campen is so high on your **** list he gets blamed for other folks **** ups. That was Jagodzinski. He was brought over from the ATL to implement the zone blocking scheme and failed miserably to do so.
I already copped to that fer the love of Pete. Now there was a guy I couldn't stand the first time he was with the Packers. Whiney bitch.
this.....****ing dumdum never admits mistakes.quote:Originally posted by Goalline:quote:Originally posted by Henry:
Complete bull****. Campen came on staff as the guy that was going to implement ZBS after being in Atlanta
Campen is so high on your **** list he gets blamed for other folks **** ups. That was Jagodzinski. He was brought over from the ATL to implement the zone blocking scheme and failed miserably to do so.
truth er
quote:Originally posted by Music City:
So much for it being a passing league.
But think about it- Rodgers sets records, the Packers in many ways redefine passing, efficiency, proficiency... Now they shift gears. Now they become a more running team. Thy still have all the ability to pass he ball that they've always had- now they pick and choose when to use it more, but far more sparingly. .
Let's not get carried away.
There is no way is it going to be "far more sparingly" even with the new backs. Green Bay was 16th in rushing attempts last year, and I honestly don't think we'll see them much higher than 12 at the most (and I wouldn't be surprised if they are again right around the 14/16 area). The offense is still going to predominantly flow through
And it is still predominantly a passing league, but the game is indeed evolving in large part to the success certain teams are experiencing running variations or elements of the read option offense.
If you look at the top four rushing teams from last year, three of run them a version of it, and the other one featured a RB that had a unquestionably historic season (our beloved Vajeens).
Which is just dandy for the teams that have QBs that can run that type of offense (effectively) that is. Perhaps they will be more common in the future.
It's also possible that NFL defenses begin to adjust to that scheme this season just as they have adjusted to MM's more vertical take on the West Coast offense this past one.
And of those top four rushing teams, only two of them were in the top 10 in scoring (San Fran was 11th), and only one of them was in the top 10 in yards (Washington).
The woefully unbalanced Packers still outscored every one of those four teams.
The Packers also actually ran the ball statistically better last year (20th in yards) than we have the two previous years when we won a Super Bowl (24th) and when went 15-1 (27th) with the most dominant scoring offense in team history.
Aaron Rodgers also went from 31 sacks in 2010, to 36 sacks in 2011, to 51 sacks in 2012. Part of that was opposing defenses adjusting to the offense (especially last season). I don't think there is any question about that.
The other part of the equation was the offensive line also essentially disintegrated before our eyes (Newhouse stagnated, Lang played with one arm most of the year, Saturday hit the wall, and Bulaga eventually was lost for the season). MM being slow to adjust his play-calling at times to the realities of the OL and the adjustments defenses had made didn't help matters either.
Nobody has ever said that a more efficient running game wasn't desirable or something to aim for. The area I'd most like to see tangible improvement in is in short yardage situations. If I never the Kuhn quick hit dive ever again it would be fine by me. However, there is absolutely no doubt the overall OL play needs to greatly improve if we are to make it back to the Bowl again.
BTW, your boy Ingram that you were all "gung ho" for us to draft in 2011 is averaging all of 3.9 YPC for the #3 in points/#2 in yards/#1 in passing/#25 in rushing (and #31/32 in defense) New Orleans Saints.
Which, oddly enough, is the exact same Y/A that the Packers had last year.
Heard something interesting on bspn talking about the Pack draft.
We won the SB when we had a running game (grant had a nice season).
Gotta keep the D honest. Best thing to keep AR healthy.
Edit: sorry, it was Starks
We won the SB when we had a running game (grant had a nice season).
Gotta keep the D honest. Best thing to keep AR healthy.
Edit: sorry, it was Starks
Wait what? Grant's great season ended midway into the 3rd quarter of their Week 1 win @ Phi. They struggled to find a run game that entire season until Starks came off PUP and gave them a spark in the playoffs. They didn't have a good run game in their SB season, but they did have "just enough" of one during the playoffs
Joe Staley, 28th overall pick, Mike Iupati, 17th overall, Anthony Davis 11th overall. SF has the best OL in football but it's equal parts drafting smart and drafting early. GB hasn't had the option of drafting early in the same consistent basis some teams have had to reload their roster due to down years stacked on top of each other. It's the cost of being competitive. (this has been pointed out by several people already, and it's worth repeating)
You can find D talent from the 20th overall through round 3. TT found a game changer in CM3. GB has never handed Campen a version of CM3 for the OL. I don't think it's fair to compare the adoration for Greene and the lack of it for Campen. Tough to find really good OL play in those rounds, not impossible, just not easy.
Cornerstones like Joe Thomas, Russell Okung, Ryan Clady, Kalil, Staley, Warmack and Iupati are usually long gone by the time successful teams are on the clock, so you're forced to try and find gems like Sitton and possibly Bakhtiari and Tretter.
I don't put all the OL issues completely on Campen, he's dealing with what he's given. I don't think he's a great coach though either.
You can find D talent from the 20th overall through round 3. TT found a game changer in CM3. GB has never handed Campen a version of CM3 for the OL. I don't think it's fair to compare the adoration for Greene and the lack of it for Campen. Tough to find really good OL play in those rounds, not impossible, just not easy.
Cornerstones like Joe Thomas, Russell Okung, Ryan Clady, Kalil, Staley, Warmack and Iupati are usually long gone by the time successful teams are on the clock, so you're forced to try and find gems like Sitton and possibly Bakhtiari and Tretter.
I don't put all the OL issues completely on Campen, he's dealing with what he's given. I don't think he's a great coach though either.
Allen Barbre by some miracle is still in the NFL. He's an Eagle now.
quote:Originally posted by Iowacheese:
]this.....****ing dumdum never admits mistakes.
truth er
Not even after the gay encounter with BK? Exquisite!
quote:Originally posted by CAPackfan:
Wait what? Grant's great season ended midway into the 3rd quarter of their Week 1 win @ Phi.
quote:Originally posted by CAPackfan:
They didn't have a good run game in their SB season, but they did have "just enough" of one during the playoffs
What helped with Starks is that he had fresh legs and opposing teams had no film on him. See DuJuan Harris sans 2012. Almost the same story (minus the injury history).
I think TT learned from Starks SB season. What looks good in 6 weeks doesnt always translate for an entire season. Thus why AR has 2 new toys at RB going into TC. Going to be an interesting camp battle.
boxedup - that's a lot of praise you're heaping on Campen. Let's see how he does developing guys for more than a year without Philbin. Philbin in his career has been involved with the OL in one way or another for 24 of his 27 years coaching.
1984-1985 -- Tulane (GA) 2 years as a GA, not OL
1986-1987 -- WPI (OL)
1988-1989 -- USMMA (OL)
1990-1993 -- Allegheny College (OC/OL)
1994 -- Ohio (OL)
1995-1996 -- Northeastern (OC/OL)
1997-1998 -- Harvard (OC/OL)
1999-2002 -- Iowa (OL)
2003 -- Green Bay Packers (Asst OL)
2004-2005 -- Green Bay Packers (TE/Asst OL)
2006 -- Green Bay Packers (OL)
2007-2011 -- Green Bay Packers (OC)
2012-present -- Miami Dolphins (HC) likely too busy to deal with OL, and he has the Shermanator to oversee that
While he was OC with GB from 2007-2011 there was more than one mention each season about his spending time in the meetings with the OL.
I think Campen gets bashed from fans more than he deserves, but I have believed for quite some time that Philbin was the reason for the development of the Thompson OL draftees you outlined.
Hopefully Campen has developed as a coach as Henry noted is possible, and he takes another step forward in developing the starters, the rooks, and the rest.
1984-1985 -- Tulane (GA) 2 years as a GA, not OL
1986-1987 -- WPI (OL)
1988-1989 -- USMMA (OL)
1990-1993 -- Allegheny College (OC/OL)
1994 -- Ohio (OL)
1995-1996 -- Northeastern (OC/OL)
1997-1998 -- Harvard (OC/OL)
1999-2002 -- Iowa (OL)
2003 -- Green Bay Packers (Asst OL)
2004-2005 -- Green Bay Packers (TE/Asst OL)
2006 -- Green Bay Packers (OL)
2007-2011 -- Green Bay Packers (OC)
2012-present -- Miami Dolphins (HC) likely too busy to deal with OL, and he has the Shermanator to oversee that
While he was OC with GB from 2007-2011 there was more than one mention each season about his spending time in the meetings with the OL.
I think Campen gets bashed from fans more than he deserves, but I have believed for quite some time that Philbin was the reason for the development of the Thompson OL draftees you outlined.
Hopefully Campen has developed as a coach as Henry noted is possible, and he takes another step forward in developing the starters, the rooks, and the rest.
If a team drafts early and drafts smart for multiple years, it's not hard to get to competitive. The trick is remaining competitive when it comes time to pay all that talent. Lose some players you would love to keep and you're drafting 25-32 every year. The dynamic changes completely.
SF struck gold with Scampernick. If Alex Smith matched AR12's play then SF is in a whole different place right now if Alex is making $20 plus million per.
SF has about $4 million in cap space today. Think about where they's be if they didn't shed Alex's $8 million contract or had to ramp that number up...
Scampernick is making $1.3 million per. Patrick Willis is making $3.0 million per. Joe Staley $2.8 million per. Mike Iupati $2.6 million per. Crabtree $5.7 million per. Aldon Smith 4.0 million per. There's a whole lot of cap room being eaten up right there by a young team without a lot of aging vets.
Tough to stay competitive.
SF struck gold with Scampernick. If Alex Smith matched AR12's play then SF is in a whole different place right now if Alex is making $20 plus million per.
SF has about $4 million in cap space today. Think about where they's be if they didn't shed Alex's $8 million contract or had to ramp that number up...
Scampernick is making $1.3 million per. Patrick Willis is making $3.0 million per. Joe Staley $2.8 million per. Mike Iupati $2.6 million per. Crabtree $5.7 million per. Aldon Smith 4.0 million per. There's a whole lot of cap room being eaten up right there by a young team without a lot of aging vets.
Tough to stay competitive.
With the draft of the new running backs, the switch to power guys on the left, this possible emphasis on the running game means we might we actually see some play action passes. Would make the passing game even more effective, assuming they can start establishing a real threat of a run. And, we might not see shotgun anymore on goaline downs from inside the 5 yard line, or on a 3rd and 1....
Last year you definitely could see the hole that was left by Philbin. I underestimated him but it really appears he was the cohesive force on the offensive coaching staff.
quote:Originally posted by Shoeless Joe:quote:Originally posted by PackFoo:
They should have used an orange cone for Finley on the graphic. He blocks about as well as one.
I'm trying understand something. Ryan Grant had 2 1,200 yard rushing seasons and yet many say he sucked as a RB so it had to be the OL. Now I find out the OL sucked so how did a RB that sucked and an OL that sucked have 2 1,200 yard rushing seasons? 
If (a big if I know) Sherrod is healthy and assuming the two 4th rounders make the team, who's the odd man out? I doubt they keep 9 on the 53 man.
I always liked Grant. People who say he sucked have no idea what they're talking about. He's finished as a starter now (still could be a good rotation guy on a lot of teams though), but I'll always have good memories of him.
I still think Campen and Capers are keeping this team back and another championship may be out of the question unless we upgrade there. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel the game has passed by Capers big time...
So he was good enough to have the #2 defense in points allowed in 2010, and now the game has passed him by? Ridiculous. Even with the horror shows put on by Adrian Peterson and Colin Kaepernick, the defense was clearly better last year. And it will take more steps forward next year with the infusion of new talent from the draft and the injured guys. Coordinators can't work magic when their players are crap. Dick LeBeau's defenses in Cincinnati during his time as DC and HC in the late 90s and early 00s were abysmal, but once he got to Pittsburgh with quality players, they were great. Funny how that works.
quote:Originally posted by Ryan Grant:
I still think Campen and Capers are keeping this team back and another championship may be out of the question unless we upgrade there. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel the game has passed by Capers big time...
In 2002, the top 13 defenses gave up less than 5,000 yards in total offense.
In 2012, 4 teams gave up less thatn 5,000 yards.
Times they are a changin'. It's a bitch to be a D coordinator in the NFL in 2013.
Don't ever think stopping offenses passes up a guy like Capers. The read option isn't the first flavor of the month he's had to deal with. Like any good coach, he needs a healthy stable of talent.
quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
boxedup - that's a lot of praise you're heaping on Campen. Let's see how he does developing guys for more than a year without Philbin. Philbin in his career has been involved with the OL in one way or another for 24 of his 27 years coaching.
1984-1985 -- Tulane (GA) 2 years as a GA, not OL
1986-1987 -- WPI (OL)
1988-1989 -- USMMA (OL)
1990-1993 -- Allegheny College (OC/OL)
1994 -- Ohio (OL)
1995-1996 -- Northeastern (OC/OL)
1997-1998 -- Harvard (OC/OL)
1999-2002 -- Iowa (OL)
2003 -- Green Bay Packers (Asst OL)
2004-2005 -- Green Bay Packers (TE/Asst OL)
2006 -- Green Bay Packers (OL)
2007-2011 -- Green Bay Packers (OC)
2012-present -- Miami Dolphins (HC) likely too busy to deal with OL, and he has the Shermanator to oversee that
While he was OC with GB from 2007-2011 there was more than one mention each season about his spending time in the meetings with the OL.
I think Campen gets bashed from fans more than he deserves, but I have believed for quite some time that Philbin was the reason for the development of the Thompson OL draftees you outlined.
Hopefully Campen has developed as a coach as Henry noted is possible, and he takes another step forward in developing the starters, the rooks, and the rest.
This is a really good stuff and spot on!
quote:Originally posted by Pack-Man:
So he was good enough to have the #2 defense in points allowed in 2010, and now the game has passed him by? Ridiculous. Even with the horror shows put on by Adrian Peterson and Colin Kaepernick, the defense was clearly better last year. And it will take more steps forward next year with the infusion of new talent from the draft and the injured guys. Coordinators can't work magic when their players are crap. Dick LeBeau's defenses in Cincinnati during his time as DC and HC in the late 90s and early 00s were abysmal, but once he got to Pittsburgh with quality players, they were great. Funny how that works.
They were completely outmatched and embarrassed yet again when it really mattered. Capers MO is starting to look like choking in the playoffs. If they hadn't won the SB in 2010, he would already be gone. Complete defensive collapse in the playoffs is now the pattern with Capers while opposing players laugh and make public comments about how predictable he is. Crawl out from under your rock...
I'm not saying it can't be corrected Pack-Man and I know stopping NFL offenses is far from easy, but the collapses in the playoffs under Capers direction are close to the worst in NFL history and it has happened 3 out of the last 4 years. In addition, players from multiple opposing teams have commented about how predictable he is.....
Remember when the Giants won the SB in 2008 after beating GB and then the next year they had their s**t handed to them after earning the bye at home in the playoffs against the Eagles? The next year they went 8-8 and missed the playoffs. Missed the playoffs in 2010 as well. In 2011 they won the SB.
The NFL is different now. You will not win them all. You might get run off the field. Might get really ugly. But NEVER hit the panic button if you have the components in place. GB does.
The NFL is different now. You will not win them all. You might get run off the field. Might get really ugly. But NEVER hit the panic button if you have the components in place. GB does.
If Sherrod shows he's recovered, and Bhaktieri shows anything at all, Newhouse could go from starting OT to looking for a new team.
Especially if only eight OL are kept this year. Even if they keep nine, he could be in trouble.
Especially if only eight OL are kept this year. Even if they keep nine, he could be in trouble.
quote:Originally posted by ChilliJon:
But NEVER hit the panic button if you have the components in place. GB does.
quote:Originally posted by Coach:
If Sherrod shows he's recovered, and Bhaktieri shows anything at all, Newhouse could go from starting OT to looking for a new team.
Especially if only eight OL are kept this year. Even if they keep nine, he could be in trouble.
Agree Coach-that would be great progress
quote:Originally posted by kcpuck:
If (a big if I know) Sherrod is healthy and assuming the two 4th rounders make the team, who's the odd man out?
Sherrod also has to demonstrate that he can play at the NFL level. It was a very small sample size, but I didn't see much from him prior to the injury. He's got miles to go before I'd be comfortable keeping him and cutting loose a competent backup like Newhouse.
We will have our answer on Capers by week 1.
One of the things about our SB run that was so special was the amount of injuries to our starters and we still won.
The last two years we've remained snakebit and couldn't overcome.
Last year didn't SF lead the league in fewest missed starts by starters? (Or were #2)
About time the injury pendulum swung our way. The last 3 years have been ridiculous.
The last two years we've remained snakebit and couldn't overcome.
Last year didn't SF lead the league in fewest missed starts by starters? (Or were #2)
About time the injury pendulum swung our way. The last 3 years have been ridiculous.
@Hungry5
I'm not exactly heaping praise on Campen - at least that's not my intent. Just trying to point out that he's being judged far too harshly, and that the OL track record has been better than most think given the personel.
But if Campen grows into a very good coach, I have no doubt Philbin will deserve a lot of credit for that.
It's easy for fans to look at a player and make a judgement. Assessing coaches is much harder to do from the couch. And last year was not a very good litmus test for Campen sans Philbin, considering the number of injuries.
I'm not exactly heaping praise on Campen - at least that's not my intent. Just trying to point out that he's being judged far too harshly, and that the OL track record has been better than most think given the personel.
But if Campen grows into a very good coach, I have no doubt Philbin will deserve a lot of credit for that.
It's easy for fans to look at a player and make a judgement. Assessing coaches is much harder to do from the couch. And last year was not a very good litmus test for Campen sans Philbin, considering the number of injuries.
quote:Originally posted by LarseeBear:
One of the things about our SB run that was so special was the amount of injuries to our starters and we still won.
The last two years we've remained snakebit and couldn't overcome.
Last year didn't SF lead the league in fewest missed starts by starters? (Or were #2)
About time the injury pendulum swung our way. The last 3 years have been ridiculous.
3 years isn't bad luck, it's a trend.
Either something is wrong with conditioning, preventative treatments, or we have a bunch of Glass Joe's.
It sounds as if MM has an idea, and is planning to address it in his off-season program and in-season practices.
But with regard to 49ers, they got pretty lucky with injuries. Justin Smith was the only significant injury they had.
quote:Originally posted by ammo: I'm trying understand something. Ryan Grant had 2 1,200 yard rushing seasons and yet many say he sucked as a RB...
I don't recall anybody saying he sucked. I think everybody has/had a ton of respect for the guy. I think most fans saw him for what he was, a nice serviceable back. Maybe your thinking of BJack...
quote:Originally posted by PackFoo:
3 years isn't bad luck, it's a trend.
Either something is wrong with conditioning, preventative treatments, or we have a bunch of Glass Joe's.
I don't buy this. I've been curious if anyone broke down injuries by region, time of season, etc. Just theorizing that injuries happen more to cold weather teams during cold weather. I know Bishop's injury happened on a warm day, but I don't think there is a preventative measure out there that would have stopped his knee from happening.