Pistol Offense-Fad or here to stay

If it is gonna be more than just a fad then you must have a bunch of fast mobile QB's that can throw. The kind of hits a running QB gets lead to more injuries IMO, ala RG3, Vick. I do think Defenses will learn to be more disciplined and slow down what those mobile QB's.

Vick is stupid about it.

All they have to do is slide. It's an enormous advantage and adds a whole new dimension. The defense can't focus on run or pass, even after the play unfolds. It's not a fad, it's smart coaching, IMO.

Everyone keeps saying how dangerous it is but again, all they have to do is slide.

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I would not be surprised if Atlanta shuts down the 49ers next week knowing now what Harbaugh is going to use. That will be interesting....

Oh yeah? They going to do that minus John Abraham?

The Niners could hand the Falcons their playbook & the Niners will still win.

Patriots will have some nice wrinkles for the Niners using Jerod Mayo. Not certain the Ravens have anyone fast enough on defense if they get there.

Niners win easily. 38-10 or something similar.

Atlanta won't be within 20 points.

I think it is a passing fad just like the run and shoot offenses back in the 80's and 90's. IMHO it is only a matter of time before NFL defenses adjust to the pistol/spread and the running QB's will get hurt. The speed of the NFL defenses will eventually catch up to it.

Unless they change the rules protecting quarterbacks I think it's here to stay. The only thing less common than a fast big man is a good downfield passer. With the read/option you don't have to be a great thrower: just fast enough and good enough. And the rules keeping the pass rushers from going all out means the pistol QBs have that much longer to make their choices.

The Packers already have 1 R/O qb on the roster (Cobb).

The weakness that always revealed itself in the NFL was that the QB could make accurate throw a or handle pressure. But with this new group of QBs, they are hitting the targets, handling the blitz, handling pressure.

There will be a new emphasis on the speed of a front 7. The 3/4 will need to have not just space eaters but guys that can get pressure consistently. I think that may be what the Packers end up doing. LB speed, speed across the front line.

Why haven't we seen the "amoeba" defense for a while? It seemed like the Packers used it a lot in '10, but not anymore. Have to think that would have been at least worth a look on Saturday.

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Originally posted by Pistol GB:
Vick is stupid about it.

All they have to do is slide. It's an enormous advantage and adds a whole new dimension. The defense can't focus on run or pass, even after the play unfolds. It's not a fad, it's smart coaching, IMO.

Everyone keeps saying how dangerous it is but again, all they have to do is slide.

Yup, be a smart runner. CK the other nite often ran out of bounds, did not take ahit for a few more yds. Slide, slide, slide. Yesterday Wilson did not slide in a couple of occasions. True, it was a playoff game and perhaps EVERY yd was important but that will not work forever.

Or another good running tactic is what CK used the other nite......don't let a defender even touch you.

That's the thing

The QBs like Griffin and Kap and Wilson are outstanding throwers that also have unreal quicks. This isn't some gimmick QB like Tebow or Joe Webb that can't compete a pass.

The rules protecting the QBs have also helped big time but the athleticism of this new breed of QB is unreal. Heck, even guys that aren't known as runners like Rodgers and Luck can really hurt you with your feet.

I think the way defenses will react is by phasing out the traditional run stuffing DL. That's been the evolution of guys like Raji and CMIII. You need speed to counter speed. These hybrid DE or LB types like a T Sizzle are the future of the NFL defenses if these trends continue. It's no different at DB. The old run stuffing SS is no longer. You need safeties that can run and cover guys.

I watched UCLA run the pistol two seasons ago. Both QB's ended up getting hurt during the season. While Kap is certainly a better athlete/QB than what UCLA had,if you run a QB 15-20 times in a game that's 15-20 hits at full speed you are exposing him to. I don't see this offense working for more than a season or so.

In addition, you might see some rule changes on hitting the QB. Right now, it is fairly hands off--but if QBs are going to become the new running back, then the rule on hitting the QB might be relaxed, especially once he gets near or breaks the line of scrimmage.

The reason it is having success in the NFL is because there are finally talented mobile QBs who can run it. In the past you had mobile QBs who were average passers, like Vick, and were not truly a duel threat because there never really was a threat they would beat you with their arm. Now you have very mobile QBs like RG3 who legitimately have ability to beat you with their arms. It's a hard thing to defend. Plus you have a new wave of college coaches in the NFL like Harbaugh and Carroll who know how to run it successfully. I have no doubt that Chip Kelly will have success when he inevitably moves on to an NFL team.

Defensive coaches aren't stupid though, not even Dom Capers. This isn't a brilliant new scheme that has invaded the NFL. It's come and gone before. Offenses will come out with some new wrinkle and defenses will adapt just like they have always done. Defensive coordinators will look to see how college defenses stop it and draft accordingly.

It's a fad. Granted these three Nubians are fabulous... unfortunately--or fortunately for us--they will all go the way of RGIII and then they're done. You can't tie up all that money in a QB that might/could/will get hurt any moment with the chances of having an equally brilliant back-up right about zero.
To me, Wilson is the best of the three (okay, I love the Badgers)-but he runs like a runningback and is going to get injured--maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday and soon.
Kaepernick has survived to the championship round mostly because he has only played 8 games. After his success against us--Atlanta is going to be obsessed with him...Yes, Kaepernick slides and runs out of bounds---but that don't matter to about 50% of the defensive players in this league---especially with his disrespectful nature. ---there are 11 defensive players in this league from Georgia Tech...don't think that they didn't take umbrage with Kaepernick spiking the ball on fellow alum Morgan Burnett and calling him a b*tch....One of those alums is Vance Walker DT for the Falcons. As Kaepernick plays more, he is going to continue showing up more players adding to the group of hit man in waiting.
Slide all you want, run out of bounds---somebody is still gonna knock your head off.
The other thing that is going to happen in the Atlanta game: You are going to get a different officiating crew, that may not allow the holds that San Fran is notorious for and were allowed to take place against the Packers.....and I'm not crying or making excuses for our terrible showing... but---with a different crew, two of his long runs would have been called back including the 58 yard TD. That makes it a closer game and makes Kaepernick not seem so extraordinary. This style is dynamic and fun to watch if aint happening against the Pack--but in true NFL fashion--- it's Not For Long.

That's the one thing Tebow could actually do well, so it will be interesting if someone decides to commit to it and sign him.

As ridiculously talented as RGIII is, he won't last 4 years in this league with the amount of hits he's taken. Not only blows a knee but strong indications are there that he had not one but 2 concussions. That does not bode well for his long term health.

For Kaepernick, let's see how he does facing a defense with legit ILB's and DL. That's probably not ATL. I do think there's plenty of good DC's who will expose this offense and confirm it's indeed more fad then anything else.

The one QB of the 3 who I believe has the most potential is actually Russell Wilson. Smart player. Will not lay himself out there and sustain stupid injuries and a good passer. He has the potential to give alot of teams fits for years to come.

Good lord. Tebow couldn't hit the ocean if he were knee deep in it.

I think next year will be the "year of the pistol" where you'll see huge numbers put up by the new kids. Then by the end of the year and more consistently the next, you'll see it accounted for and something new will emerge.

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Originally posted by DH13:
Good lord. Tebow couldn't hit the ocean if he were knee deep in it.

I think next year will be the "year of the pistol" where you'll see huge numbers put up by the new kids. Then by the end of the year and more consistently the next, you'll see it accounted for and something new will emerge.

I agree about Tebow's accuracy, but he can run the ball in that type of system.

The question I have is do you have to have a specific type of personnel to defend it? Or just be disciplined in your defensive responsibilities?

The Packers, with very pedestrian ILB's like AJ Hawk, were able to contain Joe Webb who is every bit as athletic as Tebow is. What they had in common is that neither can throw the ball worth a damn.

With Kaepernick, RGIII and Wilson, they can all throw and throw well on the run. That's your key difference.

It's pretty telling when the Jag's new GM comes out and says he cannot concieve of a possible scenario where he'd want Tim Tebow on his team. We're talking the Jags here.

I think it's entirely possible Tebow is out of the NFL in 2013.

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Originally posted by MichiganPacker:
The question I have is do you have to have a specific type of personnel to defend it? Or just be disciplined in your defensive responsibilities?

Both. The reason this offense won't ever be a dominant scheme in the NFL is that teams will figure out how to defend it pretty quick. Coordinators will be all over film like San Fran@Seattle, Washington@Pittsburgh, UofFlorida vs. Johnny Football, etc. Those games you saw the Pistol/Read Option get stifled. They will look at at how Johnny Football curb stomped one of the most disciplined, talented, well coached defenses you will see (Alabama). This thing is going to be dissected and it will be relegated to a package in offenses, like it has been in the past.

Cam Newton looked unstoppable a year ago with a very similar scheme.

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Originally posted by grignon:
Unless they change the rules protecting quarterbacks I think it's here to stay.

Once outside the pocket he can be hit like any player running with the ball. Not sure which rule you are suggesting they need to change?

I believe it is here for the long term. Most college's run this offense, the QB's, that make it to the NFLFU have been in this type of offense for most of their playing life. QB's, are larger, faster, and can throw and make decisions incredibly quick. I wouldn't under estimate what video games like Madden and NCAA Football have done with quick thinking/reading defenses to this next generation of QB's. Also, when you have one of these QB's that can run/throw, now all the offense needs is decent RB/ and a good TE/WR, and you put incredible pressure on the Defense, on who to defend.

I don't think this will change until the NFL makes some rules changes (very unlikely) in favor of the defense.

When looking at points scored this past weekend, the LOSING teams scored, 35/31/28/28. Five to ten years ago, if you scored 28-31 points, you would win 85% of your games. This past weekend, you score 28 points and you win 0% of your games.

It's an offensive league (no one is surprised by this) and QB's and offenses will continue to evolve quicker than defenses.

Three facts:

- The pistol offense is common in college football.

- All NFL players come from the college ranks.

- The vast majority of NFL coaches have college coaching experience.


WTF is the problem in stopping it then?

It will be around as long as the QBs who can run it don't get blown up. It will be interesting to see how things pan out for RGIII and what Wash will do next season.

The QB slide doesn't guarantee anything as far as QB safety. Rodgers suffered a concussion on a slide running against Detroit.

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Originally posted by Pakrz:
Three facts:

- The pistol offense is common in college football.

- All NFL players come from the college ranks.

- The vast majority of NFL coaches have college coaching experience.


WTF is the problem in stopping it then?

Answer: College Football teams haven't been able to "consistently" stop the Pistol.

The way you stop it, is by time of possession, holding on to the ball, giving your opponent as few opportunities as possible, and scoring on every series.

Isn't that the way to beat any team?

Yep!!!!

Point is, that college defenses haven't been able to scheme a way to stop the pistol yet.

So why is that people think that NFL coordinators have the magic scheme to stop the pistol/spread offense.

To me it's quite simple why colleges struggle to stop the pistol. In college you have most likely an elite athlete playing QB and several good OL who just have to get in front of guys. You may have 1 elite athlete on D and a few other very good. The offense should beat the defense every time. In the NFL you have the same elite QB, better complimentary players on the rest of the offense. However, on the Defensive side in the NFL you have 8 or more elite guys. As for right now, those elite guys are still having trouble understanding when to abandon coverage and move in for the run stop. The more they see the easier it will be to react.

All offenses are fads. It used to be run run run run pass deep offense. Then it became the run to set up the pass offense. Then it was the west coast offense with some running. Then it turned into high flying, throw the ball 70% of the time offense. Now it's running QB offense. The defenses always adjust and I have no doubt that within a few years, the read option will no longer be this new, unstoppable concept b/c defenses will be prepared for it.

What will never be a fad, is having a great QB that can make plays. Kaepernick looks legit, as does Wilson and Griffin. But if the read option is your bread and butter, eventually teams will adjust to stop it.

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Originally posted by ammo:
To me it's quite simple why colleges struggle to stop the pistol. In college you have most likely an elite athlete playing QB and several good OL who just have to get in front of guys. You may have 1 elite athlete on D and a few other very good. The offense should beat the defense every time. In the NFL you have the same elite QB, better complimentary players on the rest of the offense. However, on the Defensive side in the NFL you have 8 or more elite guys. As for right now, those elite guys are still having trouble understanding when to abandon coverage and move in for the run stop. The more they see the easier it will be to react.

Ammo, I agree with you to a point about the college D's, but the pistol/spread is not like the old "option" plays where the defense reads the QB, and the QB either keeps or pitches. The new pistol and spread offense plays are much more "slight of hand", and if it takes the OLB .25 seconds longer to see the ball, or to think before reacting what their responsibility is, the play is already a gain for the Offense.

I don't know who our 8 guys are, but I hope we have them in the near future. I think it goes farther than having the 8 guys. We saw that when you play M2M, with a QB that can run, the DB's are locked in with their backs to the ball and the QB takes off, for a 10-15 yards. You play zone, and the WR's sit in the zone and the QB floats it to them. You put a spy, and it better be a LB/Safety that can keep up with them, and not miss tackles, and your using one player to stop one player. It's not a scheme issue, it MIGHT be a personnel issue, but you need the likes of a JJ Watt/CM3, who can pressure, have the strength to take on the OL and have the speed of a TE/RB/QB. These attributes are pretty rare in one player, right now on the defensive side of the ball in the NFLFU, let alone having 7-10 players like that on one team.

I'm waiting for the D co-ordinators to figure out a way to consistantly stop the Patriots O. Whats it been, 13 yrs?

It will officially be a fad when Goodell puts in a rule making it illegal for QB's to advance the ball beyond the line of scrimmage. More passing...that's what the league needs.

Didn't we all know this offense was going to be run by the Niners? Ummm, newsflash...I DID! So why didn't our coaching staff? Something isn't right here.

Harbaugh knew, had he stuck with Alex Smith, his team loses in the playoffs.

During the 2nd quarter, a female niner fan comes up to me & says she feel sorry for Alex Smith. I asked her, "Do you want Alex Smith to start or do you want to win? Because, if Alex Smith starts & plays that entire game, the Niners lose." I also mentioned don't feel too bad for Alex since he's making $8 million to hold a clipboard.

You're going to need somebody with some speed & who can tackle & spy the QB to stop the pistol. It's not impossible & you better have good coverage on the receivers too.

Atlanta better pray Matt Bledsoe plays out of his mind or they're going to get embarrassed.

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Originally posted by Pikes Peak:
I'm waiting for the D co-ordinators to figure out a way to consistantly stop the Patriots O. Whats it been, 13 yrs?

A great QB is not a fad. Replace Brady with Cassell and that offense will get eventually be stopped, no matter the scheme.

I say the Pistol will be a good part of team's offenses that have the personnel for it, but it will never be the bread and butter of an offense once defenses start to figure some things out.

Kaepernick's performance on Saturday was a culmination of alot of things. For one, the 49ers offensive line is one of the best run blocking lines in the NFL in the past decade. They were rested off a bye and fresh and playing at home. You had a Packer team that just had gotten bludgeoned by Adrian Petersen the past 2 weeks and was not rested even though they certainly did get a little bit of a breather having to face Joe Webb.

More importantly than that, the Packers were playing 2 backup LBs, were short in their DL rotation, and in general have played some poor games against elite level offenses due to some defensive shortcomings across the board. Add to all of that the fact that the Pack totally understimated the pure speed and athleticism of Kaepernick and it led to a really really rough night.

The Pistol is not an unstoppable offense but guys like RGIII, Kaepernick, and Wilson are great athletes who are pretty tough to deal with no matter what kind of offense they are running.

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Originally posted by fightphoe93:
More importantly than that, the Packers were playing 2 backup LBs, were short in their DL rotation, and in general have played some poor games against elite level offenses due to some defensive shortcomings across the board. Add to all of that the fact that the Pack totally understimated the pure speed and athleticism of Kaepernick and it led to a really really rough night.

"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed" - Eleanor Roosevelt.

GB needs to address their speed deficiency at LB, quickly.

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Didn't we all know this offense was going to be run by the Niners? Ummm, newsflash...I DID! So why didn't our coaching staff?

So why the hell aren't you sending in your résumé to be the new defensive coördinator?

Keep this in mind also. The more teams are running it in college, the more defensive players will be accustomed to playing against it when they come into the NFL. Teams will find the right players to defend this, and it will die.

What continues to not die? The pro style offense. New revolutionary offenses and schemes come and go, but teams still want Aaron Rodgers' and Peyton Mannings' dropping back and slinging the ball. The Pistol and similar formations can and should be added to the playbook, but the pro style offense will endure.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but a QB who can scramble for the first down is a big advantage no matter what the offensive scheme. Always has been and always will be. And with the ability for the QB--and only the QB--to be able to slide and avoid being touched is a marked rule advantage that will make this more true now than ever.

The best way to deal with the Pistol offense is to hit the QB hard on every play possible. This is not to say you need to play dirty, but you have to make sure running this style takes a physical toll on the QB. A few shots to the ribs will make a lot harder for that same QB to pass accurately.

Beside CM3's one sack, did Kaepernick even get hit on any play?

Three of CK's rushing yards came after contact. Which means on the balance of his record-breaking rushing yards, he was untouched. How is that even possible in 2-hand touch football?