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Of course, Lombardi is #1 on his list.
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Belichick at #4?!!?! No way. 20th maybe. Billy B ain't nuthin without Parcells showing him the ropes or his DVD Collection.
If you put Dan Reeves on the list, shouldn't Marty Schottenheimer be on the list too? Or "Air" Coryell?
If you put Dan Reeves on the list, shouldn't Marty Schottenheimer be on the list too? Or "Air" Coryell?
Schottenheimer was a better coach than Reeves, by far (look at the stats and win totals of teams that Schottenheimer assembled over the years vs those of Reeves). Both were legendary post season choke artists, but the difference between the two in the 80s came down to Bernie Kosar vs. John Elway. With that said, none of the legendary chokers belong on this list. It's a joke that Bud Grant and George Allen are ranked so high. The only one that deserves any consideration is Marv Levy on the grounds that he went to four in a row.
Well, at least it's easier to argue "the greatest" coaches since there's way less of them than there are players. 
I tend to appreciate the old-school coaches like Lombardi and Landry. Just like the QB's of their era, they had to do much more with much less. And Lombardi did relatively well in his GM role, which is a rarity in today's game.
I also appreciate the coaches that were/are innovative, but, again, moreso in the earlier years of the NFL. Lambeau and Gillman were mentioned, ditto Landry (primarily for his "flex" defense), Walsh (WCO), and who knows how many more I'm forgetting. And Boris is right--Coryell should be included for the abpve reasons.
I'm also a little surprised Chuck Knox didn't make his list. I guess he didn't 'measure up' ala' Parcells and others.
I tend to appreciate the old-school coaches like Lombardi and Landry. Just like the QB's of their era, they had to do much more with much less. And Lombardi did relatively well in his GM role, which is a rarity in today's game.
I also appreciate the coaches that were/are innovative, but, again, moreso in the earlier years of the NFL. Lambeau and Gillman were mentioned, ditto Landry (primarily for his "flex" defense), Walsh (WCO), and who knows how many more I'm forgetting. And Boris is right--Coryell should be included for the abpve reasons.
I'm also a little surprised Chuck Knox didn't make his list. I guess he didn't 'measure up' ala' Parcells and others.
Nice to see Minnesotan, Bud Grant, coming in at #11.
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
Belichick at #4?!!?! No way. 20th maybe. Billy B ain't nuthin without Parcells showing him the ropes or his DVD Collection.
And Lombardi learned nothing at West Point and in New York?
BB's run with the Patriots is nothing but outstanding in the age of parity and a salary cap.
It says C-O-A-C-H not GM, not SALARY CAP GURU and not CHEATER, try to keep up. No way does BB deserve to be in the top 5 strictly from a coaching standpoint.
Disagree. The man is a defensive wizard and I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that he is a bad coach, however you want to define that. Methinks all one needs to look at is wins and losses. Maybe it's his personality but we love TT and BB makes TT look like Shecky Greene.
Not sure exactly where I would have him but he is a no doubt top 10-er, IMO.
Also, Lombardi was the Pack's GM since you made the comment that the list was only about coaching...nothing else.
Not sure exactly where I would have him but he is a no doubt top 10-er, IMO.
Also, Lombardi was the Pack's GM since you made the comment that the list was only about coaching...nothing else.
He was a good DC, so friggen what, the article is talking about H-E-A-D C-O-A-C-H-E-S (do I need to go to the Crayola font?). Also I never said he was a "bad coach", I said he wasn't a top-5 HC.
That was one of the most monumental pants-load of derp I've read on here in quite a while. He was also the H-E-A-D C-O-A-C-H you blithering idiot.
quote:Lombardi was the Pack's GM since you made the comment that the list was only about coaching...nothing else.
That was one of the most monumental pants-load of derp I've read on here in quite a while. He was also the H-E-A-D C-O-A-C-H you blithering idiot.
So, my belief that (and Reilly's for that matter) that BB is (or easily could be) a top 5 NFL coach of all time is ridiculous?
A guy with 5 Super Bowl appearances since 2001 with three wins. An 18-8 postseason record. Coach of the 2000s all-decade team.
That opinion is silly in Shoeless Joe's mind?
A guy with 5 Super Bowl appearances since 2001 with three wins. An 18-8 postseason record. Coach of the 2000s all-decade team.
That opinion is silly in Shoeless Joe's mind?
You are the one who brought his GM skills into the discussion of an article about H-E-A-D C-O-A-C-H-E-S. I don't think he's a top-5 HC how many times (3 so far) do I have to repeat that till it sinks into your chicken cranium.
You may need a couple more hours of sleep and then you can revisit this. 
Sorry I work for a living, YOU can maybe comprehend basic English better after your nap.
Since he was busted for those videos, BB hasn't won a Super Bowl. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm inclined to believe the video's were part of the reason he won 3 titles in 4 years.
Definitely a coincidence, IMO. He's gone to another two since being busted including an undefeated season.
Did the taping help? I suppose. Are we naive enough to think he was the only one doing it? I know I'm not.
Definitely a black eye on his resume but the success still puts him right up there, IMO...
Did the taping help? I suppose. Are we naive enough to think he was the only one doing it? I know I'm not.
Definitely a black eye on his resume but the success still puts him right up there, IMO...
Don't know about #4 overall, but Belichick in the top ten discussion is warranted. Don't care for his abrasive personality or the taping incident, but the record is what it is.
I'll agree with BB being on the lower end of a top-10 list.
quote:The man is a defensive wizard
Yeah this is in 2012 alone, I could go on. Allowing that terrible Cardinals team 20 points & flat out losing the game in their own stadium where it was PROVEN they jammed opposing teams headsets. Anyone that goes to those lengths to cheat isn't a "Top 4" anything except "Top 4" cheater.
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quote:Originally posted by Boris:quote:The man is a defensive wizard
I know you aren't serious that he isn't an elite defensive mind.
If you want to cherry pick games to make some sort of point, then I will say Capers should be fired ASAP for the numerous horrific performances his units have had since he has manned the controls.
Well, no one has referred to Capers as a defensive genius on this thread. At least put some legs on the straw man, my dear friend.
My point is it's a passing league. The rules are geared toward offense. NOBODY is a "defensive wizard" anymore. Sure you may have games where the defense excels but nobody shuts down offenses for 16+ games anymore.
Plus the Pats beat up on teams like the Jets, Bills, Jags, Dolphins, Titans & Rams last year. Not exactly a who's who of difficult NFL teams there.
Plus the Pats beat up on teams like the Jets, Bills, Jags, Dolphins, Titans & Rams last year. Not exactly a who's who of difficult NFL teams there.
quote:Originally posted by Goalline:
Well, no one has referred to Capers as a defensive genius on this thread.
Sure about that?
Anyway, this has gotten stupid with the insistance on arguing for the sake of arguing. Two points are not debatable (IMO):
1. BB is a great defensive mind.
2. He is definitely in the discussion as one of the top 5 NFL head coaches of all time.
BAM!
I guess that was the "BAM" we just heard.
Belichick not only has 3 SB wins (5 appearances), but his teams consistently have won. He has 1 losing season as HC of the Patriots, just 1 and that was in his first year after taking over for Cheat Carroll. Yes they got caught breaking the rules, but it's naive to think he was/is the only one cheating or even the only one trying to steal signals like that. When everyone is cheating then the cheating ceases to become a competitive advantage. Also I think the fact that very few of his assistants or front office personnel have been highly successful elsewhere definitely tells me that he is the catalyst for turning ordinary football people into above average football people. No I don't think he revolutionized the game like some of the other coaches on the list, but he's a consistent winner and is definitely in the top 20. We can't minimize his accomplishments just because we don't like him. That said, I don't think he's top 5 all-time coach, the top 5 greatest coaches are guys who truly changed or revolutionized the game and were ahead of their time. Belichick has been successful in his time, but there's nothing revolutionary about the things he does schematically or personnel wise.
I'm not saying Billy B sucks. He just isn't top 4. I'd put him somewhere between 10-20.
In no particular order...
Landry | Shula | Halas | Walsh | Gibbs | Noll | Madden | Paul Brown | Gillman
And ummm oh yeah...
The guy with his name on the trophy?
Pretty tough to argue that top 10 right there
Billy B is top 5.
It is harder to win consistently over a 5-10 year period in today's NFL than it was in earlier eras.
Landry | Shula | Halas | Walsh | Gibbs | Noll | Madden | Paul Brown | Gillman......didn't have to deal with the player movement, salary cap, Free Agency type things that quickly deplete the rosters of modern day winning teams.
It is harder to win consistently over a 5-10 year period in today's NFL than it was in earlier eras.
Landry | Shula | Halas | Walsh | Gibbs | Noll | Madden | Paul Brown | Gillman......didn't have to deal with the player movement, salary cap, Free Agency type things that quickly deplete the rosters of modern day winning teams.
But did he really have that big of an impact on the league other than winning consistently? I think he influenced how many teams make personnel moves now, but teams like the Steelers were successful with their draft/develop/no high $ FA's method before Belichick was with the Patriots. And schematically he wasn't doing anything that Dom Capers and Dick Lebeau hadn't already been doing in Pittsburgh.
Guys like Halas, Lombardi, Lambeau, Brown, Walsh, etc. changed the game. They caused major change in the NFL, did Belichick do that? Like I said I think his influence is clear and he is definitely top 15, but did he have the same impact that the guys I listed did?
Guys like Halas, Lombardi, Lambeau, Brown, Walsh, etc. changed the game. They caused major change in the NFL, did Belichick do that? Like I said I think his influence is clear and he is definitely top 15, but did he have the same impact that the guys I listed did?
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:BAM!
HA HA HA someone finally agreed with you after 13 years and 20,000+ posts, congrats!!!! Such a big day for you tiger!!
Just make sure to test that tube sock you just blew your wad in, I think you may have gotten it pregnant.
Is the list "Who Has Had the Biggest Impact?" or best coach?
Did BB do stuff Compers and Lebeau have done or have Compers and Lebeau done what BB has done?
What did Lombardi do to change the game?
What did Lambeau do to change the game?
What did Brown do to change the game?
Walsh was the architect of the WCO but in reality he just took Gilman's schemes to the next level. So did he really change the game?
Did BB do stuff Compers and Lebeau have done or have Compers and Lebeau done what BB has done?
What did Lombardi do to change the game?
What did Lambeau do to change the game?
What did Brown do to change the game?
Walsh was the architect of the WCO but in reality he just took Gilman's schemes to the next level. So did he really change the game?
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
I'm not saying Billy B sucks. He just isn't top 4. I'd put him somewhere between 10-20.
In no particular order...
Landry | Shula | Halas | Walsh | Gibbs | Noll | Madden | Paul Brown | Gillman
And ummm oh yeah...
The guy with his name on the trophy?
Pretty tough to argue that top 10 right there
Yup. No way I put Billy B ahead of any of those guys. Hardly an insult. That is a lot of greatness. Now Billy ain't done yet. He may end up on that list down the road. Great coach.
Top 10-15. He was a greasy cheater, and I don't remember Madden/Noll/Walsh/Shula/Landry/Hallas/Grant/Lambeau/Gillman being miserable failures prior to their success like Billy Boy was in Cleveland.
We're splitting hairs at this level, but Billy Boy #4 is just fanboyism at its finest. Billy crapping the bed in Cleveland counts against him.
We're splitting hairs at this level, but Billy Boy #4 is just fanboyism at its finest. Billy crapping the bed in Cleveland counts against him.
People are throwing Bellichik out of the top ten, but leaving Madden in? Wow...
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
Is the list "Who Has Had the Biggest Impact?" or best coach?
Did BB do stuff Compers and Lebeau have done or have Compers and Lebeau done what BB has done?
What did Lombardi do to change the game?
What did Lambeau do to change the game?
What did Brown do to change the game?
Walsh was the architect of the WCO but in reality he just took Gilman's schemes to the next level. So did he really change the game?
Are you kidding with this?
Don't play the victim card when you derail threads by being purposely dense.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Are you kidding with this?
Don't play the victim card when you derail threads by being purposely dense.
LOL...I'm actually serious about what you think...
Did Lombardi change the game or did his team just play solid, fundamental hard-nosed football? I don't believe you have to have changed the game to be a great coach.
Mouse Davis changed the game for a spell with the run and shoot. Whoever started that pistol stuff changed the game recently. Buddy Ryan had the 46 defense which changed defenses for a while but was a failure as a head coach. There are a bunch of examples of this.
I honestly have no idea what Paul Brown or George Halas did to change the game. They were NFL pioneers for sure...
Take it easy on the subset responses and answer the questions. You said "impact on the league." If it's something other than wins and losses I'd love to hear what each of those guys did in your opinion to impact the league.
Don't want to leap into an argument that has become self supporting but I do think Lombardi, Brown, Landry, Gillman and Walsh affected the game for years afterwards. Having said that I believe Belechick is somewhere in the top 20 but not #4. My top 5 would be
Lombardi is a sentimental favorite because he coached my favorite team and he put a stamp on modern professional football and that cannot be argued.
Brown for those of you not old enough to remember him was absolutely one of the finest offensive minds ever in the league. From Browns philosophy sprouted Walsh and the legacy they leave remains to this day. While we all know about the passing genius few realize Brown was among the most innovative running game coaches ever. He had a huge array 7 and 8 man O-line formations.
Gillman comes from another tree but a very similar offensive brilliance. He counts Noll and Harbaugh among his disciples.
While Landry is known only for the felx defense, the modern 4-3 defense can be credited to him. His brilliance on the defensive side of the ball left a legacy that bellechik will never equal. His misfortune is that he coached between two of the greatest dynasty's in Football.
Halas would be # 5 but I also believe that a strong case could be made for Walsh at this position!
Pack88
Lombardi is a sentimental favorite because he coached my favorite team and he put a stamp on modern professional football and that cannot be argued.
Brown for those of you not old enough to remember him was absolutely one of the finest offensive minds ever in the league. From Browns philosophy sprouted Walsh and the legacy they leave remains to this day. While we all know about the passing genius few realize Brown was among the most innovative running game coaches ever. He had a huge array 7 and 8 man O-line formations.
Gillman comes from another tree but a very similar offensive brilliance. He counts Noll and Harbaugh among his disciples.
While Landry is known only for the felx defense, the modern 4-3 defense can be credited to him. His brilliance on the defensive side of the ball left a legacy that bellechik will never equal. His misfortune is that he coached between two of the greatest dynasty's in Football.
Halas would be # 5 but I also believe that a strong case could be made for Walsh at this position!
Pack88
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
Did Lombardi change the game or did his team just play solid, fundamental hard-nosed football? I don't believe you have to have changed the game to be a great coach.
I think Lombardi's coaching style is what changed the game. Teams have been looking for a coaches like him since he retired. His style, his work ethic, how his players viewed him, etc. He was an X's and O's guy AND a player's coach all at the same time. He changed coaching. And, as has been pointed out recently, he did a lot to fight racial prejudice on his own team and in football. Not saying he's Jackie Robinson, but I think he was getting more out of black players than a lot of other coaches were.
quote:Mouse Davis changed the game for a spell with the run and shoot. Whoever started that pistol stuff changed the game recently. Buddy Ryan had the 46 defense which changed defenses for a while but was a failure as a head coach. There are a bunch of examples of this.
Being an innovator wasn't my only qualification for being a top 5 greatest coach. The guys in the top 5 were great coaches AND changed the game.
quote:I honestly have no idea what Paul Brown or George Halas did to change the game. They were NFL pioneers for sure...
Halas helped found the NFL in addition to being a great coach. I'd say founding an entire league qualifies as changing the game.
As for a Brown, a simply Google search turned up this info:
Brown is credited with a number of American football innovations. He was the first coach to use game film to scout opponents, hire a full-time staff of assistants, and test players on their knowledge of a playbook. He invented the modern face mask, the taxi squad and the draw play. He also played a role in breaking professional football's color barrier, bringing some of the first African-Americans to play pro football in the modern era onto his teams.
So yeah I'd say Brown threw a couple curveballs at the league...
Halas gets credit for the T formation, too.
IMO, BB is borderline top 10. Not top 5 in my book.
IMO, BB is borderline top 10. Not top 5 in my book.