"He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."
Don't think Belichick fits that description.
quote:Originally posted by Music City:
People are throwing Bellichik out of the top ten, but leaving Madden in? Wow...
Ya, leaving out the fastest coach to 100 wins? Awful.
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Are you kidding with this?
Don't play the victim card when you derail threads by being purposely dense.
LOL...I'm actually serious about what you think...
Did Lombardi change the game or did his team just play solid, fundamental hard-nosed football? I don't believe you have to have changed the game to be a great coach.
Mouse Davis changed the game for a spell with the run and shoot. Whoever started that pistol stuff changed the game recently. Buddy Ryan had the 46 defense which changed defenses for a while but was a failure as a head coach. There are a bunch of examples of this.
I honestly have no idea what Paul Brown or George Halas did to change the game. They were NFL pioneers for sure...
Take it easy on the subset responses and answer the questions. You said "impact on the league." If it's something other than wins and losses I'd love to hear what each of those guys did in your opinion to impact the league.
Come on man. According to Madden:
Vince was conducting a coaching clinic. Madden was young, full of himself, and sat in the back of the room. Couldn't believe Vince spent the whole morning on the GB Sweep. After lunch, Vince spent the whole afternoon on the GB Sweep. Madden left thinking he didn't know a damn thing about coaching.
quote:I honestly have no idea what Paul Brown or George Halas did to change the game·
My good man. Pick up a history book on our favorite sport. Wow!
quote:I honestly have no idea what Paul Brown or George Halas did to change the game·
No clue at all about what he's talking about.
Doesn't let that stop him.
quote:Originally posted by JJSD:
We're splitting hairs at this level, but Billy Boy #4 is just fanboyism at its finest. Billy crapping the bed in Cleveland counts against him.
If you haven't seen it yet, try to check out Cleveland ’95: A Football Life on NFLN.
In a crappy situation for any head coach to try to handle Bill B and some other successful coaches came out of that mess.
I have seen it, and yes, it was a crappy situation. That doesn't explain his crappy seasons from 1991 through 1993. If you're one of the 5 best coaches ever in the history of the game, you still find a way to live up to that standard.
As I said, we're splitting hairs when we're talking about the greatest coaches ever. IMHO he belongs in the range of 10-15 and he's a great coach, but he's not a flat-out better coach than several who were ranked directly behind him.
JMO. I also think that ranking is throwing a bone to modern fans. JMO.
As I said, we're splitting hairs when we're talking about the greatest coaches ever. IMHO he belongs in the range of 10-15 and he's a great coach, but he's not a flat-out better coach than several who were ranked directly behind him.
JMO. I also think that ranking is throwing a bone to modern fans. JMO.
quote:Originally posted by Coach:
No clue at all about what he's talking about.
Doesn't let that stop him.
That a common theme among those fans:
quote:Originally posted by FreeSafety:
Billy B is top 5.
It is harder to win consistently over a 5-10 year period in today's NFL than it was in earlier eras.
Exactly right, IMO.
Compared to Bellichik? Yes, it's absurd. Madden has a place among the great people in the game- player, coach, ambassador, pop culture icon. But while he was a good coach who was only 9-7 in he post season for his career, Bellichik is the much more accomplished coach. We can debate to 10, 20, whatever... madden is no Bellichik.quote:Originally posted by Goalline:quote:Originally posted by Music City:
People are throwing Bellichik out of the top ten, but leaving Madden in? Wow...
Ya, leaving out the fastest coach to 100 wins? Awful.
Yes it is harder in modern times, but todays' coaches have the benefit of standing on the shoulders of those who preceded them. And they also have the benefit of an immense staff of coaches ,assistants, video teams and technology that Lombardi, Landry et al didn't. The older coaches had to work with college kids who weren't ready for the NFL; while todays' kids are much closer to plug & play. You simply cannot compare across generations, all you can do is rank them amongst their contemporaries imo
Steelers guru Chuck Noll was the HC, OC and ran the special teams for the 4 time Champion Steelers- today that is handled by multiple people with their own assitants
Lots of ways to sort this and many criteria to use
Belichick shut down the Greatest Show on Turf by mugging the WRs and RBs and applied the same tactics to Mannings' Colts- forcing rule changes from the NFL
Belichick thumbed his nose at the videotape/cheating guidelines, forcing the NFL to make more rules changes
He was also a huge history buff and much of what he uses was borrowed and adapted from the guys on the list who came before him. Amazing coach and amazing run he is on in modern times
I'd put him top 10, but I can't go higher given his proclivity to bending the rules in furtherance of his goals. And losing 3 Super Bowls (twice as the favorite) leaves a stain that put Levy, Reeves and others much lower on that list
.
Steelers guru Chuck Noll was the HC, OC and ran the special teams for the 4 time Champion Steelers- today that is handled by multiple people with their own assitants
Lots of ways to sort this and many criteria to use
Belichick shut down the Greatest Show on Turf by mugging the WRs and RBs and applied the same tactics to Mannings' Colts- forcing rule changes from the NFL
Belichick thumbed his nose at the videotape/cheating guidelines, forcing the NFL to make more rules changes
He was also a huge history buff and much of what he uses was borrowed and adapted from the guys on the list who came before him. Amazing coach and amazing run he is on in modern times
I'd put him top 10, but I can't go higher given his proclivity to bending the rules in furtherance of his goals. And losing 3 Super Bowls (twice as the favorite) leaves a stain that put Levy, Reeves and others much lower on that list
.
Even if BB were top 5 caliber, it's hard for me to justify putting him above the names I already listed. Tom Landry invented the 4-3 defense for cripes sake. Halas, Brown, and Lombardi's accomplishments have already been said. And Joe Gibbs found a ton of success with a lot of average talent and still made some important innovations on offense.
quote:Originally posted by Music City:Compared to Bellichik? Yes, it's absurd. Madden has a place among the great people in the game- player, coach, ambassador, pop culture icon. But while he was a good coach who was only 9-7 in he post season for his career, Bellichik is the much more accomplished coach. We can debate to 10, 20, whatever... madden is no Bellichik.quote:Originally posted by Goalline:quote:Originally posted by Music City:
People are throwing Bellichik out of the top ten, but leaving Madden in? Wow...
Ya, leaving out the fastest coach to 100 wins? Awful.
Er, no! This is not the slam dunk argument you make it seem. Madden made it to 100 wins faster than any coach in history, including Lombardi. He is second to Lombardi in regular season wins. Higher than Belichick who is not in the top 10 in winning %.
I don't actually have an opinion on whom is better between these two, but it ain't a slam-dunk argument.
EDIT: I was rong. Madden was the 3rd fastest to 100. {Lombardi and Hallas).
People have an obvious didain for Bellichik, and it seems to skew the view of him as a coach. He is a dink. Sure. But that doesn't diminish his coaching ability nor his track record of success.
By all accounts Knoll was an a-hole too. Doesn't change what he accomplished.
If I was going to put a #2 after Lombardi, it would have to be Walsh. His success and his revolutionizing of the game is the greatest contribution of the modern age of football.
By all accounts Knoll was an a-hole too. Doesn't change what he accomplished.
If I was going to put a #2 after Lombardi, it would have to be Walsh. His success and his revolutionizing of the game is the greatest contribution of the modern age of football.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger: And Joe Gibbs found a ton of success with a lot of average talent and still made some important innovations on offense.
OK, what were these? Midget receivers?
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
OK, what were these? Midget receivers?
Again, a simple Google search turned up results:
Gibbs is credited with inventing the single back, double or triple tight end set. He used it to neutralize Hall of Fame linebacker Lawrence Taylor, realizing that to successfully block him with a running back was impossible; an extra tight end and a tackle were required as well. The extra tight end provided additional protection for the quarterback. Gibbs was also credited for creating the Trips formation; stacking three wide receivers to one side. Gibbs incorporated the shifting and motions for which his offenses were known. The formations created mismatches and confusion for the opposing defenses that would then be exploited. He is also one of few coaches that utilized the H-back position prominently in his offense.
The single back, multiple TE, and Trips formations, 3 important innovations that can be traced to Joe Gibbs. Those innovations plus his 3 SBs with no franchise QB put him in the top 5.
Gotta show your work GD! I should have known the H-Back. M3 seems to like that with his tendency to have several TEs or FBs. Problem is, he forgets to run the ball.
I'd put Paul Brown #2 and drop Gibbs to #3.
I don't think Halas belongs in Top 10 if we are isolating to coaching though major kudos for 1963 (in which George Allen was defensive coordinator, by the way). Unsure about Grant, Allen, and Reeves.
Grant's teams always got mauled in the SB. Allen's Rams lost 28-7 to 1967 Packers though I guess Allen's Redskins gave Dolphins a game in the SB. Reeves? I don't know. To be fair, no real running game on that team. Oh yeah, he did do a nice job with the Falcons. Forgot about that.
I don't think Halas belongs in Top 10 if we are isolating to coaching though major kudos for 1963 (in which George Allen was defensive coordinator, by the way). Unsure about Grant, Allen, and Reeves.
Grant's teams always got mauled in the SB. Allen's Rams lost 28-7 to 1967 Packers though I guess Allen's Redskins gave Dolphins a game in the SB. Reeves? I don't know. To be fair, no real running game on that team. Oh yeah, he did do a nice job with the Falcons. Forgot about that.
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
Belichick at #4?!!?! No way. 20th maybe. Billy B ain't nuthin without Parcells showing him the ropes or his DVD Collection.
If you put Dan Reeves on the list, shouldn't Marty Schottenheimer be on the list too? Or "Air" Coryell?
Well...here in NE the fans and the sports media people have BB rated over Lombardi, seriously.
This is just a sample of the crap I have to listen to here.
Chuck Knoll, Bud Grant, John Madden, Tom Landry, George Allen, Chuck Knox, Don Shula, Chuck Fairbanks, Don Coryell. The 70's were a murderers row of coaches. If you won in the 70s you could coach.
Billy B is a good coach. But if you had to name the 5 best coaches in the AFC since 2000 its a thin list after you get past Rat face, Dungy, and Bill B.
Billy B is a good coach. But if you had to name the 5 best coaches in the AFC since 2000 its a thin list after you get past Rat face, Dungy, and Bill B.
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger: And Joe Gibbs found a ton of success with a lot of average talent and still made some important innovations on offense.
OK, what were these? Midget receivers?
Created the Hback, for starters. I am really shocked you know so little about the game.
Edit: I see GD mentioned the H-Back already.
