Separating MM from TT

quote:

Originally posted by Diggr14:

quote:

Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Weren't people saying we didn't have talent on the DLine or at LB after last season? Suddenly with the addition of a couple good coaches, those positions became one of our strengths. Maybe there's something to this hiring good position coaches thing.

There is something to hiring good Head Coaches and GMs too. For all this supposed talent that we have it sure as hell isnt turning into wins with these goofs.

Well, considering we are sitting at 4-3 right now, I know 4 > 3, which means you still fail.

quote:

Starters he didn't:
Grant - traded
Driver - Wolf
Lee - signed
Clifton - Wolf
Pickett - Signed
Jenkins - Sherman found
Barnett - Sherman drafted
Kampman - Sherman
Harris - Sherman trade
Woodson - traded for

Throw in the fact, he actually drafted a new starting TE so Lee is not really #1 on the depth chart or will be replaced.

Kuhn wasn't drafted by TT.

Bigby too.

When I look at the Packers roster I think they have decent players in all areas with the exception of OL and RB. They are certainly in the lower 1/3 of the league IMO in those positions.

The other issue I see is that MM is so obsessed with the pass play- and the intermediate to long pass play- that it puts so much more pressure on those mediocre players to perform. That's a coaching philosophy issue, and this is where McCarthy is absolutely 100% accountable.

Put it another way- if your OTs are having issues blocking DEs you need to do something to slow them down. To me, that comes down to 1) quick hitting pass plays or 2) running the ball at the pass rush

In reality the Packers have failed miserably in both of those areas and I think it's 80% on MM because he's either being too stubborn or he simply isn't being patient enough. As we saw on Sunday his "scheme" can be appealing because Rodgers and the Packers can hit the big pass plays but it's not going to work if you are down 21.

Why did MM not use the screen again vs the Vikes? Just plain moronic after it working last game.

Off the top of my head, I remember them trying a screen once that was sniffed out. Hopefully Green can maybe bring back that dimension.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Larue:
TTmust stay,

The next 4 games for the Packers should be very winnable. They go on the road to play the Bucs and Lions. Both of those teams are horrible. They have home games against the Cowboys and 49ers. Neither of those teams, especially at Lambeau, should frighten anyone.

Then they get a tough 3 game stretch. They are home against the Ravens. While the Ravens are a decent team, they do not look to be world beaters.

They then go on the road against the Bears and Steelers. Winning those two will be tough.

Then it's back home against Seattle in a game they should win and then on the road to Arizona. Depending on which Cardinals team shows up they could win that one.

So they have 5 pretty easy games (@Bucs, Cowboys, 49ers, @Lions, Seahawks)

2 winnable games (Ravens, @Cardinals)

2 tough games (@Steelers, @Bears)

If this team is any good at all they should go at least 6-3 and finish up 10-6.

Rusty, stop drinking the Green and Gold Kool Aid. Your post makes me laugh. They won't beat Arizona, or the Ravens, and the Cowboys are NOT a "pretty easy game."

Get real dude.

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:
I'm very disappointed in MM and the entire coaching staff.

How do you leave Jared Allen unblocked? It's completely inexcusable

Something tells me the play was not sketched out in the dirt that way.

National media also questions the coaching staff.

SI article

I just re-read this thread. I'm stickying it.

Wisconsin media questions Thompson:

Packers not feeling a draft

That is an interesting article, barrister. I think it is a little bit surprising that the Packers only have one current starter from each of the last three drafts (if you count Mason Crosby as a starter). While some of these young players could still develop, it does demonstrate that it is important to not put all of your eggs in one basket.

quote:

But a major reason the Packers are 4-4 this season and just 35-37 during Thompson's tenure is his drafting has been nothing more than mediocre.

This is where I disagree with the writer. And it seems he wrote this article with a preconceived agenda and tried to make the facts fit his opinion.

The Packers went 4-12 in TT's first year, with mostly players from the Mike Sherman regime...that is a result of TT's poor drafting???

The Packers went 13-3 in 2007...that is a result of TT's poor drafting???

I'd argue the 2008 roster was much better than a 6-10 team.

I'd aggressively argue that the 2009 roster is MUCH better than a .500 team.

The writer lays the entire blame for the Packers record on TT without mentioning MM's name one time!

That is poor, ignorant "journalism".

quote:

Originally posted by barrister:
Wisconsin media questions Thompson:

Packers not feeling a draft

JSO stealing my ideas again

Iowacheese,

You have a lot of balls with that avatar, got to hand it to ya ...

There is a chance he won't even be first team in the Big10.

Packer Update has another story up .. this time about how TT blew it at LT by putting too much faith in Chad Clifton even after .. (4) .. surgeries this offseason.

GM's are going to make mistakes now and again, but he did the same thing in 2008 with KGB who was coming off a pair of knee surgeries.

This isn't even one of those hindight 20/20 deals .. lots of us on this board saw trouble coming at both of those spots yet our GM for some reason did not.

http://packerupdate.com/

I'd argue Lang has been a more than viable option behind Clifton.

If MM is too dumb to get Lang onto the field before he was forced to do so...that is not TT's fault.

Lang didn't do very well against Jared Allen. I think he was lit up for 3 plus sacks by him in a game and half.

Lang also wasn't drafted as a LT, Meredith was, but he was cut and then put on the PS. We really had absolutely no true backup option behind Clifton. Sorry, but I think TT dropped the ball.

Lang has a bright future, but he's not ready to start at left tackle for a team with playoff aspirations. He tried hard, but he really wasn't very effective vs. Allen and last week he struggled enough that MM had to rush Clifton back into the game.

The scary thing is we can sit there and watch Lang give up 3 sacks and think "you know, he's not too bad compared to the other guys we're putting out there".

TT chose to hire a puppet that is a low hanging branch on the WCO tree.

TT badly mishandled the ol. For the longest time the mantra was how to replace the guards, which shouldn't have been that hard. Then meanwhile Clifton and Tauscher were deteriorating before our eyes. There was a naieve hope that College would be the future left tackle and thats looking like a big miss now. They kept bums like Moll and Breno around and when they needed to finally replace the right tackle they insert Barbre who has been terrible. Then they let Meredith slip through their hands when he is if nothing more a better prospect than the three guys I just mentioned.

Ultimately its TT fault because its pretty unlikely McCarthy alone would be fired, so their fate is tied together.

Everything is just starting to unravel now.

TT's acclaim as a drafting wiz is a mixed bag.

McCarthy is being exposed as a mediocre coach. And things like the switch to the 3-4 looks like an irratic panic move.

Separating TT from MM -

That's a little different from trying to pry Icon from Favre's crank.

Sorry if this was already posted. Someone was sending it around at work today.

TT speaks:

"Just as Murphy gave Thompson his support on Monday, saying he “has a lot of confidence in Ted,” Thompson offered similar praise for the coach he hired in 2006 and gave a new five-year contract to in January 2008. When asked where his confidence level is in McCarthy, Thompson said “very high” and added that it’s as high as it’s ever been."

But..........


"Thompson refused to put the blame on McCarthy and his coaching staff but at the same time defended the roster he has assembled.


“I think we have good enough players,” Thompson said. “Ultimately, the responsibility is mine. … So this is my responsibility when things go bad, but I think we’re a better team. I think our players would say we’re a better team, and I think our coaching staff would say that we’re a better team than how we’ve been functioning the last couple of weeks."

http://www.greenbaypressgazett...rs--says-GM-Thompson

Translation--I gave him the talent, I have faith in him, but if anybody is first under the bus, it's McCarthy.

Yup, they both got 5 year deals around the same time.

TT isn't going anywhere and MM probably isn't either. We're stuck with both thru 2010 so some of you had better get used to it

I think you are right Boris...but things are gonna get pretty ugly if the Pack drops the next two games.

quote:

Originally posted by slowmo:



Thompson said. “Ultimately, the responsibility is mine.

He should have stopped there. Let's see a little accountability for once in Green Bay. Havent had any since Sherman left.

quote:

Originally posted by trump:
If MM doesn't find a woman, are we still having this chat?

It has gone downhill since he got married ... He's comfortable.

Murphy/TT needs to send a message that it is not a forever job in Green Bay just because the folks are so accommodating and obviously crazy about their Pack
ers ...

I think by now that McCarthy totally gets thats its not a forever job. And a bad loss on sunday, and it might not be a next year job.

If the Packers get blown out by Dallas, it would behoove TT to consider other options at HC. MM knows his ass is on the line. I'll be very surprised if the Packers play another poor game vs. Dallas

I think the Packers really should try to get Matt Millen out of the tv booth and into the Packers front office,he always drafted well in Motown and would be a huge improvement over TT,he is the man needed to right a sinking ship

Spiking the coffee this morning Bill H

quote:

Originally posted by Boris:
Spiking the coffee this morning Bill H

There are two ways to look at it:

Is what McCarthy's doing as well as anyone can expect but getting hamstrung because the Packers are the youngest team in the league every year? Basically, he never has the option of plugging in a decent veteran when there's a hole and always has to rely on untested youngsters.

Or is the talent there and he's failed to develop it.

With some of his decision making I'm inclined to lean towards the latter but you could certainly argue the former.

It might be a little bit of both. The only problem is the Oline is the biggest issue. Clifton, Wells and Tauscher (going back to last season) and even Spitz and Colledge aren't exactly rookies. Sitton, a second year guy is probably the most consistent on the oline to this point. With those factors in place you have to add a third option, crappy scheme.

So, using just the oline as an example, have a mix of vets and young guys. Barbre is the starter for half a year over Lang and Breno is still on the roster while Meredith gets bounced. That stinks of poor player development.

The two guys that TT drafted in the last two years in Sitton and Lang are pretty much protyical olinemen, not this crazy "convert a TE/athletic/fits the ZBS" crap that was represented by Moll, Barbre, Breno, etc. Lang and Sitton are doing well, not world beaters but know how to play the position while the ZBS'ers are unmitigated disasters.

Simply put I'd break it down as such:

Lack of vets: 10%

Lack of player development/who to put on the field: 30%

Crap scheme with crap coaches who can't scout talent and can't make the convoluted hybrid turd of a scheme work: 60%

I am really getting tired of the "TT gives MM the youngest team in the NFL" excuse.

Here is a list of the main starters that TT has provided with their number of years of NFL experience as of opening day 2009. Every one of them has had at least 2 years except Havner and Mathews. A lot of the guys have 5+ years of experience.

Somebody please point out to me all these players that are supposedly "too young" and are hurting MM's ability to field a decent team.

Rodgers 5
Grant 3
Kuhn 4
Hall 3
Clifton 10
Colledge 4
Spitz 4
Wells 6
Sitton 2
Barbre 3
Tauscher 10
Lee 7
Finley 2
Havner 1
Driver 11
Jennings 4
Jones 3
Nelson 2

Jolly 4
Pickett 9
Jenkins 6
Mathews R
Poppinga 5
Barnett 7
Hawk 4
Chillar 6
Kampman 8
Harris 12
Collins 5
Bigby 4
Woodson 12
Williams 3

We need to bump this thread too. What a difference a year makes but we're not done yet. We're "only" 8-4 right now

Good thread Boris to bump. I admit I WAS in the camp of Cowher but it's hard to argue with what MM has done overall.

Since that Tampa game, in the regular season, we are 15-5.

I think any MM or TT detractor has to admit they have it turned around.

The record speaks for itself but another one-and-done come playoff time will make this a disappointing season.