18 points in the 4th.
Most important stat tonight.
The Bucks were +4 in 39 minutes with Giannis on the court and -10 in 9 minutes when he was off of it.
What was Bud saving him for? Play him 45 minutes.
The Bucks were -5 in the first 90 seconds of the 4th quarter when for some unfathomable reason Bud sat him (in the middle of the massive 26-3 run).
The thing that gets me the most is 2 points in 6 minutes in a huge portion (late third) of a huge game from the team with the best statistical offense in the entire league.
Over 48 minutes, that translates to 16 points in an entire game.
I cannot wrap my head around that level of futility in such a big game. And I won't even try.
phaedrus posted:But, to me the Bucks lost it.
You're up 15, you have to score more than 2 points in 6 minutes. That is putrid beyond belief.
Yup. It's amazing how poor the Bucks half court offense is.
Great season with a devastating ending.
phaedrus posted:Best record in the NBA and they lose 4 straight.
Although if Leonard did not miss 28 games, I think we know who would have had the best record.
The Raptors were 17-5 in the games Kawhi missed.
This is why I hate the big market media.
ESPN already posted a story within 10 minutes of the end of the game basically speculating that Giannis will want out of Milwaukee if they don't make the Finals next year. Unbelievable.
Pistol GB posted:THIS IS FRICKEN AWESOME!
It’s almost like they did what I did here (right before the collapse). Counting chickens.
Huge, painful lesson in there. The game was theirs.
No it wasn’t, Dumas.
21 points in an elimination game. 40% from the field. 40% from the line.
Giannis has a lot of work to do the next 4 months.
phaedrus posted:The thing that gets me the most is 2 points in 6 minutes in a huge portion (late third) of a huge game from the team with the best statistical offense in the entire league.
Over 48 minutes, that translates to 16 points in an entire game.
I cannot wrap my head around that level of futility in such a big game. And I won't even try.
They scored 18 points in the last 14 minutes.
Giannis, George Hill, and Lopez were the only guys to score. Giannis had 3 points, George Hill had 4, and Lopez had 11.
Bledsoe, Middleton, and Brogdon didn't score a single point. Giannis had one FG.
Your top 4 offensive players had 1 FG in the last 14 minutes of an elimination game. Middleton was 0-2 with a turnover. Bledsoe was 0 of 1. Giannis was 1 for 6 from the floor and 1 for 2 from the line. Brogdon was 0 for 1 with a turnover.
1 for 10 for 3 points in the last 14 minutes of a win or go home game from your four leading scorers all year.
ChilliJon posted:21 points in an elimination game. 40% from the field. 40% from the line.
Giannis has a lot of work to do the next 4 months.
None of it matters until next April.
The big decisions are in July. Who is back and who is gone.
Of the big money guys, Mirotic is gone for sure. The Bucks played 7 guys tonight (plus Connaughton for 10 minutes). Giannis, Ersan, and Bledsoe are the only ones of those 7 guaranteed to be back. Sterling Brown, DJ Wilson, and Donte D. will stick around and basically be extra guys. George Hill is probably gone.
Can Khris Middleton be the second best guy on a title team? He was 7 for 22 the last two games.
It's possible that retaining both Brogdon and Middleton will cost more than 50 million a year. Will they do that?
ChilliJon posted:21 points in an elimination game. 40% from the field. 40% from the line.
Giannis has a lot of work to do the next 4 months.
He has to have a mid-range move to reach the next level. Same thing we said last year.
MichiganPacker2 posted:phaedrus posted:The thing that gets me the most is 2 points in 6 minutes in a huge portion (late third) of a huge game from the team with the best statistical offense in the entire league.
Over 48 minutes, that translates to 16 points in an entire game.
I cannot wrap my head around that level of futility in such a big game. And I won't even try.
They scored 18 points in the last 14 minutes.
Giannis, George Hill, and Lopez were the only guys to score. Giannis had 3 points, George Hill had 4, and Lopez had 11.
Bledsoe, Middleton, and Brogdon didn't score a single point. Giannis had one FG.
Your top 4 offensive players had 1 FG in the last 14 minutes of an elimination game. Middleton was 0-2 with a turnover. Bledsoe was 0 of 1. Giannis was 1 for 6 from the floor and 1 for 2 from the line. Brogdon was 0 for 1 with a turnover.
1 for 10 for 3 points in the last 14 minutes of a win or go home game from your four leading scorers all year.
Wow, that says it all. Their set half court offense cannot ever lapse to that extent. It just cannot happen and if it does, something needs fixing.
What I would love would be for Giannis to have a pull up floater from 3-8 feet or so out. Where basically if Giannis can remain a viable scorer if he dribbles against the wall defense and if further penetration isn't there, pull up with a floater.
It's like the jump shot alternative but it is off penetration in contrast to his pull up 3's. And he still has the option to pass.
Getting ahead of myself.
By the way, especially given your post, major kudos to Lopez. Man, I would like to retain him.
It's really unfortunate that we decided to give Eric Bledsoe $70 million for the next four years. The guy was an absolute albatross, offensively, in this series. He's a real good defender, but he's not getting paid $17M and change to play defense. He shot 29.4% from the floor (20-68), and a putrid 16.7% from 3-pt range (5-30). If he has an even halfway decent series shooting the ball, this likely turns out much differently. 40% from the floor means 7 extra buckets. 30% from 3-pt range means 4 extra buckets. That's 18 additional first chance points. I'd have to go look at how we did getting second chances on his misses, but I have to believe we'd net an additional 12 points if he isn't shooting up bricks.
And outside game 4 when Middleton was 11-15 from the floor, he shot 32.8% the other five games (19-58). I'd be totally cool with letting Middleton walk, and if we could find some sucker team to trade us Bledsoe for a bag of pork rinds, I'd jump all over it.
Giannis needs to get better shooting. He needs to find a jump shot. Develop his shooting more, and his free throw shooting will improve. But right now, he's surrounded by too many hot-and-cold guys that are cold too often in the biggest moments. Giannis will get better. I'm not sure Middleton and/or Bledsoe ever will. Go get us a real #2.
The more experienced team won the last 4 games. The Bucks crumbled under the pressure, and Toronto deserved to get their asses kicked by Golden State.
Last season was the most important off season in the franchise’s history. They got HCA and mare it to the ECF. They were outplayed by one of the best teams in the NBA, with one of the best players. The season was a success.
Now they have the second most important season in the franchise’s history. If they run this team back, they better be right. Giannis’ weaknesses were exposed, and he’ll get to work right. I’m not worried about him. This team needs playoff scorers...
Giannis got annoyed when asked the question but it’s true - experience matters. How often in the NBA did you see a team that just steps up and wins a title without having to grow and learn and take lumps along the way?
The team took a step forward this year. They easily could have won this series, but they just couldn’t close out their opponent in several games. Kahwi has been there and done that and it made a huge difference.
The other factor is it shows that other teams aren’t just going to hand it to you and they adjust. The series turned on three things:
1) Kahwi defending Giannis
2) The Raptors exploiting Lopez defensively
3) Van Vleet shooting 75% from 3 and their bench outplaying Milwaukee the last 3 games
Disappointed the way this ended and lots of big decisions to make. Above everything else Brogdon has to be extended. As for the rest of the team, it’s a question mark including Middleton and Bledsoe. I’m not sure that Bledsoe is a fit in this system and quite honestly I’m not sure Middleton has the drive to be a long term player with this team. For all the crap I hear about Giannis it sure seems like Middleton gets a pass. When he’s locked in he’s a decent player. But in the playoffs we saw what, a third of the time? You do not give huge money to a player like that.
phaedrus posted:Wow, that says it all. Their set half court offense cannot ever lapse to that extent. It just cannot happen and if it does, something needs fixing.
What I would love would be for Giannis to have a pull up floater from 3-8 feet or so out. Where basically if Giannis can remain a viable scorer if he dribbles against the wall defense and if further penetration isn't there, pull up with a floater.
It's like the jump shot alternative but it is off penetration in contrast to his pull up 3's. And he still has the option to pass.
Getting ahead of myself.
By the way, especially given your post, major kudos to Lopez. Man, I would like to retain him.
Great observation, Giannis needs to develop his mid-range game. Leonard is just more skilled than he is at this point. Look at the difference in quality of passes when they penetrate and kick between the two. Leonard's passes are on the shooters hands in his "shooting pocket", Giannis' are often all over the place, that allows the defense to get there a little quicker and is the difference between "uncontested" and "contested" shots. I'd love to see Giannis work on "jump stop / pivots" when he gets in the lane.
If the Bucks had done (or tried to do) with Giannis what the Raptors did with Leonard, they would have been fine. Drive and dish. Giannis would get way too deep before even looking for an outlet. If they had a play set, Lopez on the baseline as soon as the triple team came and someone on the corner (which they did many times) they would have been much better off than him thinking he was shooting until he basically looses the handle because there are too many hands around him and he cannot get the ball out clean. It was deja vu each of these last few games. They solved us, we could not solve them.
They need a guy that can hit a 15 foot jump shot at the end of the shot clock or at the end of games. Middleton is OK at it, but he's not athletic enough to do it against great defenders. Basically, a guy like the Big Dog is what they need. They had a guy who was perfect for this role, but he didn't want to play defense (Jabari Parker).
lambeausouth posted:It's really unfortunate that we decided to give Eric Bledsoe $70 million for the next four years. The guy was an absolute albatross, offensively, in this series. He's a real good defender, but he's not getting paid $17M and change to play defense. He shot 29.4% from the floor (20-68), and a putrid 16.7% from 3-pt range (5-30). If he has an even halfway decent series shooting the ball, this likely turns out much differently. 40% from the floor means 7 extra buckets. 30% from 3-pt range means 4 extra buckets. That's 18 additional first chance points. I'd have to go look at how we did getting second chances on his misses, but I have to believe we'd net an additional 12 points if he isn't shooting up bricks.
And outside game 4 when Middleton was 11-15 from the floor, he shot 32.8% the other five games (19-58). I'd be totally cool with letting Middleton walk, and if we could find some sucker team to trade us Bledsoe for a bag of pork rinds, I'd jump all over it.
Giannis needs to get better shooting. He needs to find a jump shot. Develop his shooting more, and his free throw shooting will improve. But right now, he's surrounded by too many hot-and-cold guys that are cold too often in the biggest moments. Giannis will get better. I'm not sure Middleton and/or Bledsoe ever will. Go get us a real #2.
They don't have any assets to go get that type of guy and those types of free agents are not going to seek out Milwaukee.
The best fit for what they need is Tobias Harris.
It’s interesting that you bring up Tobias Harris because he’s the first guy that came to mind. He struggled a bit in the playoffs but he actually put up better numbers than Middleton.
Another guy is JJ Redick. I realize he plays SG but he will give you 15-20 night and he’s a better shot maker as well.
Not sure what Philly is going to with their team but if the decision is made to not resign Middleton I would be looking at those two guys.
hey - I will say - I am super excited to be in the first finals in franchise history. great game last night and it was a clean and honorable discussion about basketball here, go raps.
One last reflection I had on this team.
Giannis, much like Kahwi, was the reason their team made it to the conference finals. However, it was other guys and their contributions that made the difference.
Lopez basically won game 1 for Milwaukee and Van Vleet won games 5-6 for Toronto. The reason we lost the double OT game is no one else stepped up when Giannis went out.
In this series, with the exception of one game apiece Middleton and Bledsoe did nothing. You are not going to beat a really decent team in the playoffs with 2 other key guys disappearing. This is going to be the dilemma in the offseason. If Kahwi leaves (which I expect) the Bucks should be favored as one of the top 3 teams in the East again. But will that be enough? I don’t think so.
Good luck to the Raptors as well
Drake is a putz but they aren’t like the Sixers or Celtics that can get on your nerves
They play hard and are well coached and Kahwi is one of the most underrated playoff performers in NBA history
This was the first trip this deep for the entire team. Who stepped up? The veterans. The young guys with little experience at this level crumbled. All of them. They’re not trash heap guys- they’re just young, and despite Giannis’ offense to the ESPN reporter asking about experience, it was probably the key factor.
Hill and Lopez are the veteran guys you keep. They know what’s at stake- their best chance to get a ring.
I am waiting for Giannis to learn to dish on some of his drives and pull up on others. He doesn't seem to realize that while driving and dunking gets you highlights, involving and trusting your teammates gets you rings -- even if they fail, you have to be the one to show your confidence in them to help them do it. And I always remember the advice from a youth coach I heard: "Give the ball to your teammates and trust you'll get it back or that your teammate will score; it opens up the spacing and gives you better opportunities." Giannis has to learn that as great a player as he is, he cannot carry 11 other guys on his back -- no one can. Jordan, LeBron, et al ... they all share the ball so they have more space and can take over a game when the time arrives. During the regular season, defense is basically non-existent and dunking is easy; in the playoffs, it's defense from the opening tip.
And props to Kawhi. He showed up Giannis, but he also showed him what it takes to win.
Music City posted:This was the first trip this deep for the entire team. Who stepped up? The veterans. The young guys with little experience at this level crumbled. All of them. They’re not trash heap guys- they’re just young, and despite Giannis’ offense to the ESPN reporter asking about experience, it was probably the key factor.
Hill and Lopez are the veteran guys you keep. They know what’s at stake- their best chance to get a ring.
There was some speculation he was more upset at the reporter (ESPN's Malika Edwards) publishing an article within 5 minutes of the end of the game saying sources "close to him" are claiming he will leave the Bucks if they don't make the Finals next year.
Fandame posted:I am waiting for Giannis to learn to dish on some of his drives and pull up on others. He doesn't seem to realize that while driving and dunking gets you highlights, involving and trusting your teammates gets you rings -- even if they fail, you have to be the one to show your confidence in them to help them do it. And I always remember the advice from a youth coach I heard: "Give the ball to your teammates and trust you'll get it back or that your teammate will score; it opens up the spacing and gives you better opportunities." Giannis has to learn that as great a player as he is, he cannot carry 11 other guys on his back -- no one can. Jordan, LeBron, et al ... they all share the ball so they have more space and can take over a game when the time arrives. During the regular season, defense is basically non-existent and dunking is easy; in the playoffs, it's defense from the opening tip.
And props to Kawhi. He showed up Giannis, but he also showed him what it takes to win.
How many games did you watch this year? Giannis dished out of drives ALL the time. It's actually what the Bucks entire offense was built on. He could get better at it, but the 5 out system was based on that. Giannis has to get a midrange game, but the biggest problem he had was that guys that were supposed to space the floor didn't hit their threes. In the final 4 games, Bledsoe (2 for 19), Mirotic (3 for 18), and Ilyasova (2 for 9) were the guys left open by design and they didn't hit enough shots to make the Raptors stop packing the paint on Giannis. Giannis either has to hit 15 foot shots consistently or guys have to hit their 3s. Most of the season, guys hit 3s. The other three volume shooters were average in the last 4 games. Middleton was 8 for 22. Brogdon was 9 for 23. Lopez was 6 for 17. However, 21 for 62 is still way under the season shooting percentage.
For all the other discussion, the Bucks hit 71 of 229 3 point shots in the series. That's 31.0%. In the regular season they took 3134 3 point shots (a huge sample size) and hit 35.3%.
The Raptors took 230 3 point shots in the series (virtually the same # as the Bucks). They hit 86 for 37.3%. That was the difference in the series. Even though Danny Green was terrible (6 for 32) he was still better than Bledsoe. Van Vliet, Lowry, and Powell lit them up.
Giannis had 33 assists in the series and Kawhi had 26. Kawhi showed Giannis what exactly? It certainly wasn't to focus on being a distributor. Kawhi was OK at that, but he won the games he did because he isolated against Lopez or others and hit shots after the other offensive guys cleared out
Stats are stats. My eye test showed me that in this series Leonard was the better player. As my old coach would say, he has a big set of nuts. He was a fit in player in SA and learned from some of the best team first guys the league has ever seen, Pop, Timmy, Mano and Parker. He took those lessons and now is able to be the man. Our guy has a good shot of doing the same.
He will.
Pikes Peak posted:Stats are stats. My eye test showed me that in this series Leonard was the better player. As my old coach would say, he has a big set of nuts. He was a fit in player in SA and learned from some of the best team first guys the league has ever seen, Pop, Timmy, Mano and Parker. He took those lessons and now is able to be the man. Our guy has a good shot of doing the same.
He will.
I agree. Kawhi and Giannis were fairly equal except for one big thing. They could isolate Kawhi and, if the Bucks backed off, he'd hit an outside shot. That was the difference. This take that Kawhi is somehow a better teammate than Giannis is faulty.
I don't buy for one nanosecond that Kawhi is a better team-first guy than Giannis. Kawhi is a guy who forced his way out of one of the classiest organizations in sports (and one that developed) him to try to get to the Lakers. He's going to leave Toronto as soon as the Finals are over for Los Angeles. Give him credit for playing hard this year instead of phoning another year in. He deserves major props for that, but he essentially ended Popovich's run by pulling the crap he did.
I saw the article and I have a feeling that’s why Giannis bailed
****ing ESPN. Stir the pot why don’t you right after the Bucks lose in gut wrenching fashion.
As for Kahwi v Giannis, not sure why there is a debate. Leonard is really, really good. But Giannis is the unicorn. If he can develop a consistent jump shot he will be as good if not better than LeBron. Given his desire and work ethic he will either figure it out or kill himself trying
I just hope Giannis wants to stay with Milwaukee. Screw ESPN for trying to drive a non story. It's more of the disrespect sportscasters, pundits and talking heads have with Wisconsin sports, in general. They publish crap stories about how Giannis could be disgruntled in Milwaukee when what they are really saying is how they wished Giannis played for their favorite team.
mrtundra posted:I just hope Giannis wants to stay with Milwaukee. Screw ESPN for trying to drive a non story. It's more of the disrespect sportscasters, pundits and talking heads have with Wisconsin sports, in general. They publish crap stories about how Giannis could be disgruntled in Milwaukee when what they are really saying is how they wished Giannis played for their favorite team.
Ah screw the talking heads......and I heard Giannis loves Milwaukee, and will be terribly disappointed and really pissed if he were to leave. He said he loves it there, i’m hoping he stays.
And you know that if Giannis had won an NBA title this year with the Bucks, she'd have had an article ready to drop about how he had accomplished all he could in Milwaukee and would want to move to a new challenge.
Nice breakdown. Giannis will get better, the guy is driven and is probably in a gym shooting free-throws and mid-rangers right now. 
Hated the "Kawhi stopped Giannis" talk from the know nothing casuals . Gotta give Nurse a lot of the credit, and the fact that the Raps roster is a perfect fit for the strategy.
In addition to the Raps great defense, the the Bucks could be in the Finals if Giannis had just made his damn free throws 
Unfortunately, Bledsoe was exposed long before that video. The guy is an amazing player for much of the regular season, then playoffs come and he goes into a mental freeze. I joked about it after he got exposed last year in the Boston series("Drew Bledsoe") that he should see a sports psychologist....but maybe.....
Never thought Lowry could play as well as he did and Bledsoe could look so awful, again.