Thought he did a decent job but the bar was set really low.
He improved as the season went on. Said this in a different thread, I wouldn't be opposed to replacing him if there is a guy who MLF really wants, but it's not a Slocum or Zook situation where he was just out classed and doesn't deserve a job.
The 3 biggest ST gaffs in the NFCC game were more player related than due to Meningitis. (muffed punt, Opie shank, and big SF return).
Somehow I don't think Rizzi would have been able to do anything with the punt return unit before Ervin got there.
Packdog posted:The 3 biggest ST gaffs in the NFCC game were more player related than due to Meningitis. (muffed punt, Opie shank, and big SF return).
Ervin dropped kickoff too
Over the first half or so of the season, our STs looked like our defense vs SF.
Performance did improve after acquiring Ervin, but I don't know it was solely because of him.
Through 10 games, ugly:
Packers special teams are statistically awful again
Mason Crosby is one of just two kickers that hasnât missed a field goal attempt in 2020, but the rest of the Green Bay Packers special teams has to be considered poor, at least statistically speaking.
The Packers rank 32nd in the NFL in kickoff return average (18.1)
â The Packers rank 26th in the NFL in punt return average (5.6)
â The Packers rank 16th in the NFL in kickoff coverage average (22.2)
â The Packers rank 31st in the NFL in punt coverage average (15.2)
â The Packers rank 24th in the NFL in average punt yardage (44.9)
â The Packers rank 18th in the NFL in opponent average starting position (29.2-yard line)
â The Packers rank 30th in the NFL in net average punt yardage (35.7)
â The Packers rank tied for 27th in the NFL in punts downed inside the 20 (9)
â The Packers are 30th in the NFL in total punt return yards (39)
â The Packers are 30th in the NFL in long punt return (11)
According to Pro Football Focus, the Packers have nine missed tackles and three penalties on special teams
At PFF, the Packers rank 22nd in overall special teams grade. By DVOA, the Packers are 26th on special teams.
Packers special teams are statistically awful again (msn.com)
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Menendez and Petting can GTFO at seasonâs end, if not before.
Opie has been terrible this year. Bust.
Yet, somehow, we just cut the punter we brought in to replace him if needed...
@Grave Digger posted:Opie has been terrible this year. Bust.
What's more concerning he's also punted like shit inside weather controlled domes as well. It's one thing to punt lousy in crap, cold outdoor weather. Quite the other to shank punts in perfect conditions.
Plenty of skeptics here when Gutey burned that fifth-rounder on a punter. He'll probably need a significant improvement in his level of play over the remainder of the season to salvage his roster spot.
I don't understand how it seems the Packers can year after year be so poor in this phase of the game. Is it coaching/scheme or players?
It's coaching but it's also the quality of the roster. When you don't have quality backups your ST's are going to be bad. The bottom half of the roster really needs to improve. Looking at you, Gutey.
When you have a QB and a left tackle taking up a big chunk of your salary cap, the bottom of the roster is hard to improve.
It's the bottom of your roster. Pretty sure it's not eating a ton of cap. Pretty much the same with every team.
@michiganjoe posted:Plenty of skeptics here when Gutey burned that fifth-rounder on a punter. He'll probably need a significant improvement in his level of play over the remainder of the season to salvage his roster spot.
At least he didn't give it away for nothing.
Why when I see the name Shawn Mennenga do I think of one of those brothers who killed their rich parents ?
Probably because you're thinking about knifes
@michiganjoe posted:Plenty of skeptics here when Gutey burned that fifth-rounder on a punter. He'll probably need a significant improvement in his level of play over the remainder of the season to salvage his roster spot.
It's not so much that he's been terrible. He's middle of the road. The problem is using a 5th round choice to fill a position that you can find 10 guys with 2 days notice that are street free agents that can give you the same outcome. The same team that refuses to give up mid-round picks over the years because they are always worried they are going to lose out on the next Bakh (4th round) or A. Jones (5th) wasted a 5th round pick on a punter. Someone at Harvard for part of a statistics study analyzed punting stats over decades and came to the following conclusion. A couple of key takeaways from that study:
What should be striking here is that Morstead has only been able to add 11.03 points over four seasons and most of the 2013 season, equivalent to 2.32 points over average each season. For comparison, the average NFL team scores 371.85 points a season. Football Outsiders estimates that in 2013, Peyton Manning was able to contribute 2,475 yards above average at quarterback, which is worth approximately 160.6 expected points above average.
It is also worth noting that NFL teams currently have a difficult time evaluating and paying punting talent appropriately. For example, the highest paid punter for the 2014 season is Mike Scifres of the San Diego Chargers who is earning $3.25 million this year (corresponding to a $4 million cap hit) but producing results below the league average. Even if teams starting evaluating punters correctly, the marginal benefit a team could expect from signing a top punter is not worth nearly the current market cost.
http://harvardsportsanalysis.o...alue-of-nfl-punters/
I don't think he goes anywhere if Crosby is satisfied with him as a holder. Opie has averaged 44 yards a punt all 3 years he's been here. I'd rather keep him for that production so he can hold for Crosby than get a guy that averages 46 yards a punt that would have to get used to holding for Crosby.
If you apply Moneyball principles to football, you should probably never pay more than the league minimum for a punter and never bother to use anything other than maybe a 7th round pick to draft one. In the study referenced above, the best punter in the league gives you an extra 2.3 points per YEAR whereas the best QB gives you 70 times that. If you figure that the top QB salary is 40 million, it means you can only justify the top punter's salary to be around 600K.
One of my former students was a punter for the Bills and he had previously been on the Niner roster when they had Andy Lee for preseason camp. Lee told him he wanted $1 million a year, no more, so he wouldn't be a cap target. Eventually they did cut him but he's popped up on the Cardinals. Some of these punters go for 20 years, if it's only $1 million a pop and you're careful with your money you are set. Lee has been at it since 2004, made the Pro Bowl a few years.
Unfortunately my former student is currently NOT in the NFL.... After some successful years for the Bills. Colton Schmidt.
@GBFanForLife posted:When you have a QB and a left tackle taking up a big chunk of your salary cap, the bottom of the roster is hard to improve.
No it isn't. Solid drafting and UDFA additions keeps that part of the roster good enough to have serviceable backups and solid ST players.
There's 53 guys on the roster. They are all getting paychecks. A lot of them aren't earning their paychecks.
I donât have a problem with burning a 5th on a Punter, I didnât even have a problem burning a 5th on THIS punter. Great punters can be game changers, flip the field. By contrast terrible punters can hurt your chances of winning. If you think any position is a game changer then go get him no matter the cost, but man what a whiff. Scottâs resume was good also, thereâs no reason that he shouldnât be a good punter.
Scott was a good pick. Mennenga probably had little if any input. Thomas Morhead, the Saints All Pro punter was a 5th round pick. Andy Hekker was an UDFA...you just never know. Also I think Opie may be dealing with an injury affecting his production.
What is Mennengas fault is the PR and KR coverage and production. At best you hope it wonât give up a big play or get you to the 20. There is zero threat of a PR or KR TD...no threat at all.
ST are either important to a HC or they are not and it will show. Packers ST havenât been truly important to this franchise since Nolan Cromwell waS the coach.
Murphy cheaping out on ST coach tells you how he feels about that unit.
@Chongo posted:Scott was a good pick. Mennenga probably had little if any input. Thomas Morhead, the Saints All Pro punter was a 5th round pick. Andy Hekker was an UDFA...you just never know. Also I think Opie may be dealing with an injury affecting his production.
What is Mennengas fault is the PR and KR coverage and production. At best you hope it wonât give up a big play or get you to the 20. There is zero threat of a PR or KR TD...no threat at all.
ST are either important to a HC or they are not and it will show. Packers ST havenât been truly important to this franchise since Nolan Cromwell waS the coach.
Murphy cheaping out on ST coach tells you how he feels about that unit.
Mennenga really doesn't have much to work with. Ervin may have been an OK returner, but Shepard has no real upside (he's not a threat to break one) and now has a target on him for opposing ST coaches to kick short and go after the ball. When is the last time the Packers had a guy back there that scared anyone? Maybe Sam Shields as a rookie? Not because his stats were that great, but because if he did get by your first wave no one was going to catch him from behind.
The decision they've made is that they aren't going to run injury risks to guys like Aaron Jones and Jaire Alexander to have them on returns. Imagine Aaron Jones on a kickoff return with his vision and cutback ability.
I don't have statistics that I can find on injuries on punt and kick returns. Deion Sanders was the best cover corner in football in the 90s (and probably the best pure cover corner in NFL history). Note I didn't say the best corner ever because you have to at least try in the run game to get that title. Even when he was making All-Pro teams as a CB during the 90s, the Cowboys and the Niners had him back returning punts. It's not only the yardage on kicks that are returned, it's the extra yardage you might get because teams kick short to force fair catches or out of bounds to prevent a guy from having a chance. Those teams felt the reward of getting an extra 4-5 chances for one of their best players to make a play was worth the injury risk. Most teams don't.
I just looked at the PR stats. I forgot about Micah Hyde. He was good and had 3 returns from TDs, but the Packers have not returned a punt for a TD since 2014 when he was doing it. The longest punt return in the last 3 years is 23 yards.
The only kickoff return for a TD since 2000 is Randall Cobb's 108 yarder in his first game as a Packer in 2011.
I don't have any real problem with using a fifth on a punter but you have to hit if you do. Really have to question the judgment of the organization if they're willing to continue with Scott given his level of inconsistency. Too often in the past the team has been willing to stick with their draft choices rather than just acknowledging a mistake by moving on.
Our punting problems started the season after we let Craig Hentrich walk.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:Mennenga really doesn't have much to work with. Ervin may have been an OK returner, but Shepard has no real upside (he's not a threat to break one) and now has a target on him for opposing ST coaches to kick short and go after the ball. When is the last time the Packers had a guy back there that scared anyone? Maybe Sam Shields as a rookie? Not because his stats were that great, but because if he did get by your first wave no one was going to catch him from behind.
The decision they've made is that they aren't going to run injury risks to guys like Aaron Jones and Jaire Alexander to have them on returns. Imagine Aaron Jones on a kickoff return with his vision and cutback ability.
I don't have statistics that I can find on injuries on punt and kick returns. Deion Sanders was the best cover corner in football in the 90s (and probably the best pure cover corner in NFL history). Note I didn't say the best corner ever because you have to at least try in the run game to get that title. Even when he was making All-Pro teams as a CB during the 90s, the Cowboys and the Niners had him back returning punts. It's not only the yardage on kicks that are returned, it's the extra yardage you might get because teams kick short to force fair catches or out of bounds to prevent a guy from having a chance. Those teams felt the reward of getting an extra 4-5 chances for one of their best players to make a play was worth the injury risk. Most teams don't.
KR/PR is about patience, decision making and balls of steel.
Doesn't matter if you have the best guy in the world in all 3 of those areas if the holes/lanes are not there for him. That is coaching.
Murphy didn't want to pony up for ST guru Darren Rizzi...so he went to the Saints and we got Mennenga.
Two years later, per Football Outsiders rankings, Saints have 5th ranked ST, Packers have 26th.
Idiot Murphy , who then blowsncash on a five year deal for pettine
Murphy is a real estate developer posing as El Presidente. He's slightly less egomaniacal than Jerruh. I don't think he fashions himself a "personnel man," thankfully, but wants full credit for the Packers hires. I also think he relies entirely too much on Russ Balls in his decision making, who is a bean counter.
Not sure how much they saved not hiring Rizzi...$600k? $700k? Does it really fucking matter? That money doesn't count against the salary cap. When you have the opportunity to get a top assistant coach, you do it.
Rizzi had top 5 ST every spot he'd been at. Instead you bring in a guy who was largely a college coach...and not a very good one. He had 6 years as a ST assistant in Cleveland, and that's it.
I'm calling bullshit Mennenga doesn't have anything to work with. He's got the best kicker in franchise history. He's got a P that has arguably the strongest leg in the league...if he's going through a bad patch WORK WITH HIM YOU BALD FUCK!
Where he really falls short are the coverage and return teams. Middling results on his best day. ZERO threat a KR/PR is going the distance or flipping the field. His most successful punt covers are when Opie kicks one so high and deep a pack of grannies in wheelchairs could get down there and cover it.
Everyone seems to be over Pettine...fuck that...Mennenga is a bigger paycheck thief.
If you have a great kicker and punter, the rest of STs is mostly coaching. Getting to your position and doing what you are supposed to do is about coaching. Yes, you have to have the athletic ability to get there. But even that can be compensated for to a degree if you have good coaching. When our STs run down the field, it looks like an elementary school has been released for recess: everyone flies every which way. The same with blocking on returns. There is no blocking plan on returns. You never see a resemblance of a picket fence set up, just guys scrambling trying to find someone to make contact with. It looks more like peewee football where the kids are just happy to be running around in their bobblehead helmets.
Things I like more than Shawn Mennenga:
- Stepping on legos in the middle of the night.
- Pot lucks with a bunch of cat ladies.
On both punt return TDs, Opie had the angle on the returner and let him go by him on the sideline. After the first one, wouldn't you think the coaches would say "no matter what, you need to force the guy to cut back inside because that's where your help is." If the guy cuts inside and still scores, at least you did what you needed to do. Instead, the same exact thing happened. We had a basketball coach at a summer camp that would tell us no matter what don't get beat baseline by a guy driving the ball. If you have to stand with one foot out of bounds and force him back the middle. That's what Opie should be doing on that- cutting the angle off so the guy either has to run through him or cut back. There should be no way he lets a guy run by him on the sideline. He looks like he's been told not to get hurt rather than try to stop the play.
The difficult question is whether you like Mennenga or Jaymo more.
@MichiganPacker2 posted:On both punt return TDs, Opie had the angle on the returner and let him go by him on the sideline. After the first one, wouldn't you think the coaches would say "no matter what, you need to force the guy to cut back inside because that's where your help is." If the guy cuts inside and still scores, at least you did what you needed to do. Instead, the same exact thing happened. We had a basketball coach at a summer camp that would tell us no matter what don't get beat baseline by a guy driving the ball. If you have to stand with one foot out of bounds and force him back the middle. That's what Opie should be doing on that- cutting the angle off so the guy either has to run through him or cut back. There should be no way he lets a guy run by him on the sideline. He looks like he's been told not to get hurt rather than try to stop the play.
Said every coach ever. Including Opies JV, HS and college coaches.
Send him packing, they can pick up a punter that can give as much as he has. It would send a strong message.
Maybe if Opie had a better coach he would look better.