Superb Owl L threads morphs into Time To Move On From Dom thread.
It has been said, posted, written, seen, heard, rumored, etc... that Dom's D needs vets to succeed, or something like that. With the way Thompson churns the roster in his D&D game, maybe the yutes can't handle the Wizards potions? Irregardless of how talented they may be.
How often have we heard about communication being the issue?
The defense was not the problem in the last 2 years of playoffs. They were the strength of the team. They had some choke moments (within nearly dominant games) in both years that I'm not sure you blame the coach for (Randall?, HaHa?, Peppers?). But the coming up short fell much more in other places.
Wasn't groundhog day LAST week?
Herschel posted:What does that tell you when you have to put your best edge rusher in to plug the gaping wound in the middle rather than using him where he's most comfortable and best?
It tells me someone can adjust with the talent he's given after injuries hit a certain position.
I'm curious if Dom could have made the call to bench Hawk once it was obvious he was a liability. I guess if your prefer skill at lining up the defense over skill in general, then no.
Choke moments are a problem.
A big problem.
CUPackFan posted:Herschel posted:TT does a nice job drafting, but when he flops there's no fall back to cover the gaping hole.
And this is the point most of are making. This team relies heavily on 22-25 year olds being mature enough to be professionals and treat this game like a job. I think it was clear that a lot of the young guys on this team did not act as professionals these last 12 months and it showed up on the field.
I'm not advocating that TT go crazy in free agency, but is it too much ask that he look at the last few Super Bowl champs and realize that free agency can be a valuable means to build a champion? The market is not as inefficient as it once was - there are plenty of deals to be had. Fact is, ILB and TE have been huge glaring weaknesses on this team for a while now. And I don't blame TT for not drafting one b/c if he did, he likely would have reached to fill a need. But that is what free agency is for, to plug holes that the draft isn't able to.
I don't think the philosophy would need tweaking if the asst coaching staff was competent. It's abundantly clear if you're going to run with this philosophy there has to be a strong teaching element available in the form of vets or capable coaching. Can't just Wizardize everything and expect these kids to make the jump.
Herschel posted:Having easily-exploited, gaping holes almost guarantees you WON'T win the Super Bowl. TT basically hasn't signed dick for free agents. Two in 10 years that have done anything? That's somehow a great record in your eyes when they repeatedly trotted out a cavalcade of crap at safety and ILB?
That argument was made about RB 5 years ago. It is a pretty myopic one. Teams win the Super Bowl every year with massive weaknesses. The Broncos just won the Super Bowl with a massive weakness at the most important position.
Defense is defense, there isn't a ton of variation from Dom Capers to Wade Phillips to Rex Ryan. Certainly the core of what they believe varies from DC to DC, some like more pressure while some prefer less...more stunts less stunts...more zone or more Man. Most of what DCs believe, in my opinion, is based on what talent they have. We never saw an OLB with his hand in the dirt before Peppers came aboard...maybe Perry did it once or twice. I don't know what a new voice or perspective is going to do that is so different from what Capers does? Blitz more? Fewer or more DL dropping in to coverage?
Saying a new DC is going to instantly make this D better while ignoring the gaping hole at ILB is like hoping a different doctor will make u walk perfectly with a broken toe. Doesn't matter what perspective you have, the toe is still broken and you're still going to walk funny.
Herschel posted:Having easily-exploited, gaping holes almost guarantees you WON'T win the Super Bowl.
But it does guarantee you'll be the most popular girl at the Delta Gamma house.
Only Dom Capers insists you just need some essential oils and your toe will be all better. But Ted is such a tight ass, he won't let Dom buy anymore.
In all seriousness, what is it? Defensive coordinators don't matter or they do (you seem to advocate for both)? In either case, Dom's performance has one good tally on it's Green Bay record and a pile of mediocre. In typical McStupidface fashion, he is going to be superduper loyal to his assistants so I assume Dom is back. I still see him as a weak link in the coaching staff, so I am totes cool with contemplating an upgrade.
DH13 posted:The defense was not the problem in the last 2 years of playoffs. They were the strength of the team. They had some choke moments (within nearly dominant games) in both years that I'm not sure you blame the coach for (Randall?, HaHa?, Peppers?). But the coming up short fell much more in other places.
Sounds like they were the strength of the team except when they weren't...
I never lie, and that's a lie.
El-Ka-Bong posted:In all seriousness, what is it? Defensive coordinators don't matter or they do (you seem to advocate for both)?
Defensive coordinators matter, but they can only scheme to cover up so much when the guys opposing them are also talented and paid.
Mike Shula did a great job this year in trying to cover his OT (and LG) weakness with max protect, rolling protection, bunched quick routes, two starting-quality TEs and some speed outside. Of course he ran in to an issue facing a good coordinator with the talent to exploit that line. Phillips blitzed quite a bit and let his corners do their thing. Did Carolina complete a pass against Chris Harris last night?
The Packers led the Seahawks and the Cardinals in the fourth quarter. The defense just needed to make a few more stops. Instead, Dom's unit crumbled in both games. And then there's the OTs...
Wouldn't have been a crumble if the O had scored more points. Who underperformed vs. SEA and vs. ARZ? The D had mistakes but to expect any facet to play a perfect game is just a foolish talking point. DEN dominated but they also gave up some big plays where WR's were wide open. They were not fully consistent through the whole game. A better QB may have hit the open receivers Cam missed and scored more than 10pts.
It always takes tallant and the more you have, the better you'll be. BUT coaching guys up makes a good player into a very good one and very good player into a great one, and that's what we're missing. Especially mentally, we seem to fail in big situations: third-and-get-off-the-field, OT, etc.
You have to give Wade credit last night for calling a heck of a game and putting out an excellent game plan. He had all the answers.
I've not really maintained I think Capers is uniquely special or anything. I think he's a good DC with a lot of knowledge and experience, but obviously he has his weaknesses. He's far from perfect, but you can win a championship with him at DC.
If Thompson would give him a MLB worth a schit then this D would be championship caliber. Even Clay, with all his talent, wasn't the caliber ILB needed. He looked good there because of how poorly the other players performed, but he was not and is not the answer.
DH13 posted:Wouldn't have been a crumble if the O had scored more points. Who underperformed vs. SEA and vs. ARZ? The D had mistakes but to expect any facet to play a perfect game is just a foolish talking point. DEN dominated but they also gave up some big plays where WR's were wide open. They were not fully consistent through the whole game. A better QB may have hit the open receivers Cam missed and scored more than 10pts.
The offense played with a one-legged QB against a great defense in '14. The offense played without its top 4 WRs against a very good defense last month. Thinking the Packers were going to score a lot of points in either game was unrealistic. The defense needed to win those games, and the defense failed both times. When it mattered most, Russell Wilson and Carson Palmer moved the ball with ease.
The defense picked off Russ 4 times. Laid down on the last one. They dropped those picks against Palmer. In both games they did the best they could as long as they could.
I often think what 2015 looks like if Bostick squeezes the onside kick in Seattle. Does MM still hit the over reaction button and shuffle the coaches?
The Seattle bebacle killed two seasons.
12 point lead. 3:52 to go. Opponent on their own 31 with only 1 Timeout. And, you're down by 3, 11 plays and 2:27 later.
7 plays. 69 yards. 1:43. TD
4 plays. 50 yards. 0:44. TD+2 pt conversion
6 plays. 87 yards. 3:19. TD
And, this is after 37 points to the Giants in 11. Kaepernick in 12 and 13.
Yet, it was the ST coach that gets scapegoated and ****canned for the Seattle game.
That will never not be funny.
One last point about Scam's post-game PC:
I loved it when he was (my assumption) trying to mention specific reasons why they may have lost the game.
After the typical "they made more plays", etc., he listed "dropped balls", "turning the ball over", and "giving up sacks" BEFORE he included "errant throws".
Obviously, he wasn't the reason they lost the game...
heyward posted:Thinking the Packers were going to score a lot of points in either game was unrealistic.
Don't think it's unrealistic to expect more than six points off five turnovers against the Seahawks.
CAPackFan95 posted:12 point lead. 3:52 to go. Opponent on their own 31 with only 1 Timeout. And, you're down by 3, 11 plays and 2:27 later.
7 plays. 69 yards. 1:43. TD
4 plays. 50 yards. 0:44. TD+2 pt conversion
6 plays. 87 yards. 3:19. TDAnd, this is after 37 points to the Giants in 11. Kaepernick in 12 and 13.
Yet, it was the ST coach that gets scapegoated and ****canned for the Seattle game.
That will never not be funny.
I don't think Slocum was scapegoated. There were just so many choices for firings.
DH13 posted:Wasn't groundhog day LAST week?
It will be every day of the off season.
Grave Digger posted:I've not really maintained I think Capers is uniquely special or anything. I think he's a good DC with a lot of knowledge and experience, but obviously he has his weaknesses. He's far from perfect, but you can win a championship with him at DC.
If Thompson would give him a MLB worth a schit then this D would be championship caliber. Even Clay, with all his talent, wasn't the caliber ILB needed. He looked good there because of how poorly the other players performed, but he was not and is not the answer.
this
If Thompson would just get him a safety
If Thompson would just get him more vets
If Thompson would just get him another pass rusher
If Thompson would just get him a middle linebacker
Dom must be the most needy, non uniquely special coordinator in football.
Just like Wade Phillips...and every DC ever. Except maybe that one DC that elevated the play of his mediocre players to championship levels with his fresh perspective and belly fire...what's that guy's name again?
FreeSafety Trollbot posted:
Would New England trade us Dan Compers for Bell Bilichick? Unless people have a problem with the New England way?
Only Hoodie could pull off such an epic trade.
Grave Digger posted:Just like Wade Phillips...and every DC ever. Except maybe that one DC that elevated the play of his mediocre players to championship levels with his fresh perspective and belly fire...what's that guy's name again?
So again, the DC doesn't matter. They are all fungible assets with no meaningful differences between any of them. The success or failure of a defense is completely dependent on the players and there has never been a DC that has been able to make mediocre players play better than they should be able to.
But regardless of your repeating this mantra and that Dom Capers isn't special, for some reason Dom Capers can't be fired.
Because reasons.
Can one expect any DC to make Beef Wellington from dog crap and Wonder Bread?
I didn't say there were no differences between them, certainly there are core beliefs that separate DCs and their schemes. Some prefer to do things that others don't. But really there is no scheme that is better or worse than any other scheme because in the end the schemes that work are the ones that have the talent. Did Steve Spagnuolo, genius of the Giants SB run, hit his head and lose all that info? No he just lost all 5 of his all-pro pass rushers! How did Sean McDermott field a championship defense after fielding a putrid defense in Philly?
I posed this question before with only answer: has there been a DC who could take mediocre players and make them special? Henry said BB, which I agree with. I will throw another name out there: Jim Johnson. Both coaches are unfortunately unavailable for different reasons. Who is this coach that turns MD Jennings, Jerron McMillan, Jarius Wynn, CJ Wilson, Brad Jones, etc and turns them in to even above average players? Because those players, at one time, were the best we had at their positions. And at times several of those players were starting at the same time. Could even BB actually turn Jerron McMillan into a good player? I'm skeptical. Fortunately we are past most of those days where we are fielding those schmucks, but I'm not sure what some new coach with a fresh perspective and belly fire does to cover up horrible ILB play.
The 2 pointer.
Could it be his last completion? I don't know but I gave the ball back to him because he deserves it #Respect pic.twitter.com/GiQhnxuu8G
â Bennie Fowler (@b_fowler13) February 9, 2016
That should be in the two point thread.
Here's the stats by which all GB DCs get measured: Fritz Shurmur. He was defensive coordinator for 17 straight years in the NFL 1982-1998.
Rankings defensive yards allowed during his time in Green Bay.
1998-4
1997-7
1996-1
1995-14
1994-6
Guess what happened in 1995? That's the year Reggie White got dinged up and didn't play in all the games (his hamstring miraculously healed that year in December).
He was DC in Phoenix for 3 years before that from 1991-1993. His rankings were 23rd, 26th, and 19th. Did he such in Phoenix? No. He just didn't have the talent to execute the scheme.
Coaching obviously plays a part, but if you have guys that can physically beat the guy they are up against consistently play after play, most DCs can devise a scheme that will work. Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, Wayne Simmons, Leroy Butler, Craig Newsome, etc. will make a solid scheme work.
Players, not plays?
Obviously talent is more important than the coach but last year, Jack Del Rio took this defense to pretty average places. They lose Raheem Moore and Terrance Knighton, only pick up Darian Stewart, and this defense was taken to all-time levels. Talent is the key, but coaching does matter.
MichiganPacker posted:Here's the stats by which all GB DCs get measured: Fritz Shurmur. He was defensive coordinator for 17 straight years in the NFL 1982-1998.
Rankings defensive yards allowed during his time in Green Bay.
1998-4
1997-7
1996-1
1995-14
1994-6
Guess what happened in 1995? That's the year Reggie White got dinged up and didn't play in all the games (his hamstring miraculously healed that year in December).
He was DC in Phoenix for 3 years before that from 1991-1993. His rankings were 23rd, 26th, and 19th. Did he such in Phoenix? No. He just didn't have the talent to execute the scheme.
Coaching obviously plays a part, but if you have guys that can physically beat the guy they are up against consistently play after play, most DCs can devise a scheme that will work. Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, Wayne Simmons, Leroy Butler, Craig Newsome, etc. will make a solid scheme work.
So they dropped all the way to 14th because Reggie White missed one game? Because that's all he missed
