The OL

Nothing resembling depth on the OL other than center and it's an area (one of several) that TT hasn't adequately addressed. Also fair to ask with the benefit of hindsight if signing the injury-prone Brian Bulaga to that extension was the right move. Team offensively from top to bottom is largely a mess at this point with little reason for optimism for the Viking game.

The O Line had better get addressed in the next draft or FA period. All of our starters are playing injured with zero depth behind them, except for Tretter. ARod is the recipient of what not addressing those needs does.

We'll go to battle with who we have, but it sure ain't pretty! Guys that may be better suited inside (Walker) or better suited for the bench (Barclay) are playing at the most critical spots on the OL because there is literally no one else that can do it.
It's easy for us to call for help with either one of them, but...
1. They are going to have some one-on-one battles to win or stalemate sooner or later. And when that breakdown happens, it's always at a critical time and/or situation.
2. Can't help them both at the same time. It has to be one or the other, so which poison do we take? The fast-acting or the slowly but surely?

I have NO idea how MM is going to solve this dilemma, but he has 6 days to "get it fixed".

All of a sudden, this "best o-line ever" essentially needs to be rebuilt. Other than Bulaga, there's not a lot of dead cap money remaining to the starters, and there's virtually none for the scrubs, but they can't release/cut everybody all at once. Even if they did, who would replace them? Can't spend every draft pick on an OL, and UFDAs get us guys like Barclay. There's no time to wait for draft and develop, so let's hope this will be a good class for OTs.
I hope Sitton and Lang will be able to play another 2-3 years but they would likely have to at a much lower salary. I'm hoping we get some kind of ROI from Bulaga, but it may be a crapshoot at this point. 

There's only 53 roster spots.

Please explain how we're supposed to stockpile 15 All-Pro O-Linemen in the event all 5 of our starters go down?

They get guys who can play both ways?

The challenge really is that you have to pick and choose your 53 carefully. I guess this is why Thompson in particular but also McCarthy  get the big bucks. They're expected to effectively assess what they have in terms of talent and durability and make changes accordingly. We know players are going to go down. We just don't know who and when. Thompson has been riding this same basic offensive line for some time now without really making any significant improvement. Don Barclay filled in nicely for one season but hasn't looked anywhere close to that since. Possibly due to the injury, however assessments from other GM's in the league have described Barclay and Bahktiari as hard working overachievers and nothing special. Yet these are the kind of guys we have to protect the franchise quarterback. At some point you have to invest in new, real talent for the line. Thompson shoots himself in the foot by not getting more active in free agency. The team is consistently average always picking low in the draft. Refusing to go outside ensures that it doesn't change.

First you say that TT/MM are supposed to "effectively assess what they have in terms of talent and durability" and then you go on to say "We know players are going to go down. We just don't know who and when."  So which is it?  I guess in your mind TT should have realized during the last draft that Jordy Nelson was going to blow an ACL in pre-season so he should have drafted a downfield receiver.  That would have been an effective assessment.  What a load of crap.

Bakh missed his first start in 3 years (IIRC some 49 starts) so he's been pretty durable. Is he the best LT ever? No but there are worse out there than him starting in the NFL. GB has 2 quality starting centers one of whom could be trade bait Sitton seems like something is usually ailing him but he's tough SOB who manages to play. Both Sitton and Lang are long term concerns for re-signing because you do wonder how much is left in these guys to play at a high level without serious breakdowns in health or quality of play. And Bulaga's big risk in re-signing was his durability but I understand why TT extended him.

Finding a decent T and/or guard to upgrade Barclay is a must IMO. Maybe Walker could be a serviceable G. At T, both these guys are awful.

FinnLander posted:

First you say that TT/MM are supposed to "effectively assess what they have in terms of talent and durability" and then you go on to say "We know players are going to go down. We just don't know who and when."  So which is it?  I guess in your mind TT should have realized during the last draft that Jordy Nelson was going to blow an ACL in pre-season so he should have drafted a downfield receiver.  That would have been an effective assessment.  What a load of crap.

I think you missed my point. But since you brought it up, how do you feel about the options at that position? Feelin' good about Davante? Feel confident that Abby's going to get through another year?

lotta injuries along that offensive line. we've seen what the group is capable of when healthy last season. at any rate, I think it's definitely somethin that needs to be addressed in this next years draft.

Bulaga extension already looking bad. The guy just gets hurt constantly

Walker has a bright future at Guard. He's so out of position at Tackle though and he's a rookie. It's almost unfair to throw him to the wolves like that. Watching him get downfield on that long run by Lacy was awesome though, he can move for a big guy. Once he gets some experience he will be a mauler at Guard. He and Rotherham could be the future at Guard if they keep improving. Im guessing TT goes he Wahle/Rivera route with Lang/Sitton. Send them packing a year too soon rather than a year too late. Good guys though, they play through so much obvious pain. 

Yeah, I can't be mad at Barclay/Walker....neither has any business playing Tackle

With Barclay in for Bakh they could give help, not for both T's though.

Exactly! As soon as I saw Lacy lined up on Walker's side I knew that Barclay's man was going to be on AR in under 3 seconds. 

Boris posted:

There's only 53 roster spots.

Please explain how we're supposed to stockpile 15 All-Pro O-Linemen in the event all 5 of our starters go down?

We've played against teams that have had 2 linemen down.   Our D didn't make them look like the turnstiles we had out there yesterday.

Those two do not belong on NFL rosters.  

Send the link to the game GB faced a team missing both it's starting Tackles. I don't recall that game. If you find the link can you let us know if those back-up tackles were given any help? 

Right about the time Aaron looked like a speed bump in the second half Troy ****ing Aikman made the comment "I know Mike McCarthy doesn't like to give his tackles help but at some point you gotta' do something before you get you're QB killed". And in the moment it sounded so profound and deep seated in NFL logic and foresight. 

And yeah, I agree Barclay and Walker aren't NFL Tackles. 

Newhouse starts for the Giants. A lot of Packers cast offs are still playing. This should tell you the state of quality offensive lineman. You are fine if no one gets hurt.

Hungry5 posted:

With Barclay in for Bakh they could give help, not for both T's though.

Then AR might have 8, 9, even 10 seconds to not find an open receiver.

I'm still waiting for the receiver screen to Janis, and the old Lofton end around/reverse.

michiganjoe posted:

Nothing resembling depth on the OL other than center and it's an area (one of several) that TT hasn't adequately addressed. Also fair to ask with the benefit of hindsight if signing the injury-prone Brian Bulaga to that extension was the right move. Team offensively from top to bottom is largely a mess at this point with little reason for optimism for the Viking game.

I was opposed to the Bulaga deal. IMO, if you can't find solid RT you aren't looking very hard. LT, that is another matter.

Ubetcha posted:

FinnLander posted:

First you say that TT/MM are supposed to "effectively assess what they have in terms of talent and durability" and then you go on to say "We know players are going to go down. We just don't know who and when."  So which is it?  I guess in your mind TT should have realized during the last draft that Jordy Nelson was going to blow an ACL in pre-season so he should have drafted a downfield receiver.  That would have been an effective assessment.  What a load of crap.

I think you missed my point. But since you brought it up, how do you feel about the options at that position? Feelin' good about Davante? Feel confident that Abby's going to get through another year?

So what exactly was your point?

RE Adams, at the beginning of the year I thought he'd be fine, just like the vast majority of people here.  No clue about Abby.  My crystal ball is a bit cloudy, apparently unlike yours.

Bak has been hurt since pre-season.  Hard to get a read on how well he can play when healthy if he isn't.  Bulaga was really starting to play well the last few weeks. 

How many ankle injuries this year?  Better than knees, but man there's been a bunch of serious ones.  They badly need to upgrade from Barclay as a third tackle next year.    

This just makes last year hurt that much more.  That was the team to get a SB and they threw it away.  Those injury breaks don't come often.   

titmfatied posted:

Bak has been hurt since pre-season.  Hard to get a read on how well he can play when healthy if he isn't.  Bulaga was really starting to play well the last few weeks. 

How many ankle injuries this year?  Better than knees, but man there's been a bunch of serious ones.  They badly need to upgrade from Barclay as a third tackle next year.    

This just makes last year hurt that much more.  That was the team to get a SB and they threw it away.  Those injury breaks don't come often.   

Except that that got unlucky with Rodgers playing gimpy the last month of that season. A lot of people overlook the fact that Rodgers was playing on one leg. If he's healthy, the Seahawks game is a Packer blowout win. 

good point MI, I forgot about that. 

FinnLander posted:

Ubetcha posted:

FinnLander posted:

First you say that TT/MM are supposed to "effectively assess what they have in terms of talent and durability" and then you go on to say "We know players are going to go down. We just don't know who and when."  So which is it?  I guess in your mind TT should have realized during the last draft that Jordy Nelson was going to blow an ACL in pre-season so he should have drafted a downfield receiver.  That would have been an effective assessment.  What a load of crap.

I think you missed my point. But since you brought it up, how do you feel about the options at that position? Feelin' good about Davante? Feel confident that Abby's going to get through another year?

So what exactly was your point?

RE Adams, at the beginning of the year I thought he'd be fine, just like the vast majority of people here.  No clue about Abby.  My crystal ball is a bit cloudy, apparently unlike yours.

I guess that really is my point. You can't predict when injuries will happen and to whom. It's safe to say they will happen so continually trying to upgrade becomes that much more crucial. Our starters have been continually hobbled and the reserves aren't adequate. Others have pointed out that Barclay and Walker can make nice guards and I wouldn't argue with that. Since it's Thompson's job to get the right people for each position, it looks to me that he's missed in a very critical spot. Check out the read on JSO this morning. It's a nice summary of the situation.  

 http://www.jsonline.com/sports...775z1-363700081.html

BTW, I also was in the group thinking we would be okay with the receivers we had going in to this year. But since we're not real GM's but have fun pretending, we all just have to trust that Thompson and McCarthy will get it right.

I'm as shocked as you are that Ted hasn't been able to fill this roster with starter quality backups. I can do it on Franchise Mode on Madden...I just traded Nate Palmer for Antonio Brown and the Steelers were very happy. 

Look across the league, no one is stacked with quality backups across the board...especially on the OL. 

BTW might I add that it took so long for either Barclay and/or Walker to get TE blocking help from a TE like Quarless while Rodgers was getting killed over and over and over was beyond ridiculous. That's entirely on MM and once again by the time he reacted it was way too late.

Agree, it's a tough slot to fill. But are we really going to stand pat with guys that really aren't cut for the position?

Does any site or person keep stats on who gets blamed for sacks? I'd be very interested to see what the breakdown is for this season concerning who is responsible for the most sacks this season. My guess is that Rodgers would get credited for most of the sacks. He has to get the ball out faster, even if it's to throw it away. If there's no opportunity then get rid of it or run. Early in the season I can buy that he was giving them opportunities to get open, but at this point the receivers have been so poor at getting open I'm not sure why he's waiting to make a move. He's taking sacks and forcing the OL in to holding penalties. McCarthy deserves flack for not giving his Tackles some help, but Rodgers has to be smarter also. If there's no decision by 3 seconds then throw it away. 

I don't think it's easy to find backup OL though that are competent. Any free agent that is competent will either want too much money or will want to go somewhere where he will get PT. Homegrowing our guys is the best option, TT has been better than most at finding UDFA's like Walker who can play.

It may just be the perfect storm at this point. My guess is that McCarthy felt Tretter had enough versatility to play T, but didn't put him in til the damage was done due to being beat up. I still hope Thompson gives some attention to this next year one way or another. You're right about Rodgers. He needs stop being so anal retentive and get of it. No line can hold up that long against a competitive D like AZ.

Yeah it definitely needs to be a focus in the draft. We took Linsley when we already had a presumed starter in Tretter at Center. Next year will be a contract year for Bakh, I guarantee Ted looks at a Tackle in rounds 4 or 5 in this draft. 

Grave Digger posted:

Yeah it definitely needs to be a focus in the draft. We took Linsley when we already had a presumed starter in Tretter at Center. Next year will be a contract year for Bakh, I guarantee Ted looks at a Tackle in rounds 4 or 5 in this draft. 

If he doesn't at some point, even as low as that, it is grounds for dismissal.

Does any site or person keep stats on who gets blamed for sacks? I'd be very interested to see what the breakdown is for this season concerning who is responsible for the most sacks this season.

Each week  Bob McGinn breaks down every postions and rates them on how they did. That includes OL and who allowed what "bad runs" and sacks. I will include Rodgers review in here as well. He rates them from 1 to 5. 5 being the highest. Here is the review from the AZ game  :

OFFENSIVE LINE (one-half point)

Of Don Barclay's 351 snaps this season before Sunday, just 39 came at LT. He did a respectable job as 21-game starter in 2012-'13, but that was at RT and before August 2014 reconstructive knee surgery. Starting for injured LT David Bakhtiari (ankle), Barclay was overmatched. Of his 4½ sacks, three were to old pro Dwight Freeney and 1½ on end-tackle twists to dominating DE Calais Campbell. He also allowed four hurries for a total of 8½ pressures. Barclay was much better in the run game, but he did have a critical miss on an off-tackle toss that started out looking like it would be a TD. When Barclay overran ILB Kevin Minter, Eddie Lacy was tackled for a gain of only 3. Bryan Bulaga was humming along against the edge rushers on the other side when he departed after 36 snaps with an ankle injury. Josh Walker got the call, but after he allowed four pressures in a disastrous 20 snaps, the coaches inserted JC Tretter for the final 16. Tretter was much more effective than Walker, who is better at guard than tackle. The unit drew five penalties (two were accepted), and early holds against Corey Linsley (71) and Josh Sitton (66) were costly. Sitton and T.J. Lang (65) both played better than Linsley before making their exits during garbage time. Another reason why the run by Lacy didn't go the 13-yard distance before the half was the fact that undersized ILB Deone Bucannon made a great play, getting leverage on the pulling Linsley and compressing the hole. Coordinator Jeff Bettcher blitzed on 38.1% of passes, one of his lowest totals of the season, because five of the nine sacks came on either three- or four-man rushes.

QUARTERBACKS (one-half point)

Against a team as formidable as Arizona, the Packers' best chance was to get magnificent play from their quarterback. When Aaron Rodgers turned the ball over three times, completed 53.6% and didn't cut an inspiring figure around whom the team could rally, the offense and the team were doomed. On the second series, he threw high for an open Adams on third and 5. On the fourth series, he threw slightly behind Rodgers on third and 2. In the third quarter, he missed Jones on what for him should be an almost routine 37-yard TD. But Rodgers hasn't been accurate on the deep ball all year. On two of his eight sacks, he pump-faked for 3.7 and 4.2 seconds when it was incumbent upon him to get the ball out of his hand. This also was the first time in Rodgers' career that he fumbled three times. Two were from the blind side, but ball security is priority No. 1 for McCarthy's quarterbacks. His interception was placed high and in the middle when it probably had to be thrown low and away. On the blown coverage, Adams had a chance to go all or a lot of the 98 yards but the pass made him turn back and around, destroying his momentum. Sometimes Rodgers is throwing as he leaves his feet, and at times it leaves him in poor position to get the ball out of his hand. Why did Rodgers spin the ball and jaw at the Cardinals' bench when Powers upended him near the sideline after a scramble? He didn't run out of bounds. The Packers need a leader, and that isn't leadership. Rodgers has been remarkably durable. He takes a beating and always comes back for more. That has been the best part of his game this season. Scott Tolzien's six snaps included a fumbled exchange.

Sacks are often caused by plays called asking for more time which implodes as soon as a WR is not open and the QB thinks he can buy time to find an option.  The emphasis on records for passes without INT's or TD's/INT's ratio are cute until you start to get pounded because you are playing to cautious.  Add the fact we have no big play WR allowing safeties to get tight and now you can't run consistently.  We could make Joe Thomas times 5 look bad!

Ted needs to take blame for this.

Typically, the complaints over depth seem unreasonable. There aren't 64 starting caliber tackles in the league, but Joe Fan expects his favorite team to carry four.

But in this case, it's hard to imagine there wasn't/isn't a better option at tackle either on the PS or on his couch. Barclay- never a true LT to begin with - was obviously really affected by his injury. Anyone watching the PIT preseason game at home knew he had no business protecting the blind side for even a series, and the front office decided he was their guy for any stretch of time DB might miss.

Thanks PBoi, that's about what I expected for the Arizona game. Barclay was out of his element in the worst possible way. After Calais Campbell had sack 2 or 3, the Packers needed to get the ball out faster. That's what the Cardinals did when Palmer had been sacked for the second time. They were getting it out lightning fast. Can't wait for routes to develop when you only have 2 seconds to throw it.

Barclay was a passable right tackle prior to the injury.  But he never appeared to be a fit at left tackle even during his best days.  The coaching staff should have either (1) flipped Bulaga to left tackle and use the best combination of Lang and Barclay on the right side of the line or (2) radically adjusted the game plan...put Rodgers under center for a large percentage of plays and use two backs to help with protection.  To think that they would be successful with that personnel running that gameplan against a team like Arizona was a foolhardy notion at best.

Pikes Peak posted:

Grave Digger posted:

Yeah it definitely needs to be a focus in the draft. We took Linsley when we already had a presumed starter in Tretter at Center. Next year will be a contract year for Bakh, I guarantee Ted looks at a Tackle in rounds 4 or 5 in this draft. 

If he doesn't at some point, even as low as that, it is grounds for dismissal.

Would this be immediately after the draft?

I'd wait until the final cuts to 53 next September. I'm sure there will be some gems available then.