Losing sucks.
What's worse is when fans/people start turning on each other.
The worst is the infection of 'fantasy think' into solutions and fixes.
I understand it, to a point; when players/coaches/managers are perceived to be performing poorly, the natural thought is to demand accountability, if not retribution. This is compounded by the emotions that come with losing.
And I don't begrudge anyone having their opinion(s). I have my own, and it can even be enjoyable to fantasize of being the man who can make things happen.
But, there's sensible discussion, and then there's whacky shit.
What would Marty LeFluer's departure cost the Packers? Even though he signed an extension, it might be worth cutting the loss now.
Despite his same coach-speak every week (especially after losing), it seems like he may have lost this team. AR also appears to ignore playcalling and wing it. A good example is the 4th down call for AR to throw to Bak, and I can't believe Marty called that. Any way you look at it, this team is screwed for the next two seasons with AR's contract, a half-time tackle on big money, and the worst receivers in the league.
Dark days ahead, my friends, dark days.
The Packers have won 2 titles over that 30 year stretch. Only a few losing seasons. Yes, they’ve had shitty luck with the Fail Mary and Nick Collins (among other things) but I’m guessing if you are a Panthers or Bengals or Vikings or Lions or Bills fan you would trade the next 15 years of losing just to get one ring.
It’s not easy winning championships. You need to have talent and chemistry and good timing and good fortune. Bottom line, we’ve been spoiled over 30 years.
This is turning into a nightmare season but hey the Jets have probably had 25 over that same timeframe. Until Burrow and Allen arrived the Bengals and Bills weren’t much better. Detroit has been awful almost my entire life on the planet.
Nothing lasts forever. See the Steelers and Patriots.
On a different topic, the Panthers turned down a 1 for DJ Moore? That 1 could very likely be a top 8 pick. Thank God their GM is even more inept than Gute.
So did the rebuild begin today or are we consigned to failure for all time?
Steve was pretty clear that it needed to start today.
@Blair Kiel posted:Steve was pretty clear that it needed to start today.
The day is not over, plenty of time for a complete overhaul
@"We"-Ka-Bong posted:I came here assuming the stupidest thing I would read would come from SteveLuke.
Thanks for proving me wrong again
If you believe that we’re not going to be competitive for the next 4 years, trading Gary makes sense.
You think the Packers are going to be able to turn it around within 4 years? We have the Bahk and Rodgers contracts for the next 3 years. It’s probable that they are the highest paid players in 2024 and don’t even play a snap.
@GBFanForLife posted:Isn't that what I said?
I think I posted just a little bit after you did and hadn't refreshed and didn't see your post. But yes, we are in agreement.
@GBFanForLife posted:Just because this season is toast and cap hell awaits, doesn't mean you trade your best players. Aaron Jones would make sense due to age.
Gary is a UFA after next season. How are they going to pay him (of course this has changed with his ACL tear).
@BrainDed posted:If you believe that we’re not going to be competitive for the next 4 years, trading Gary makes sense.
You think the Packers are going to be able to turn it around within 4 years? We have the Bahk and Rodgers contracts for the next 3 years. It’s probable that they are the highest paid players in 2024 and don’t even play a snap.
My point too was before Gary tore his ACL how were the Packers going to afford him after 2023? But guys like El-Ka-Bong can't understand any of this as we discuss the coming cap hell and seem to believe the Packers have some magical way of paying a healthy Gary in spite of the cap hell.
IOW, before he tore his ACL Gary was going to walk after the 2023 season because the Packers couldn't afford him.
Blame the players all you want, if this thing truly is as broke-dick as many seem to think, the blame will ultimately lay at the feet of two people…Gutey and MLF. It will remain a work in progress well beyond 12 and 69’s tenures here.
Gutey is the architect of this masterpiece of tallant. People love to villify 12 for his big paycheck…but the Packers willingly offered it. Don’t blame him for doing what any other human being would do and accept it.
I’ll give Gutey a pass on Bakh…that was a freak injury and happened at the worst time. I even give him props for trading 17…even though trying to keep him showed more poor judgment…he’s fortunate 17 wanted out otherwise we’d probably have a couple more wins and a bigger cap problem.
He also gets credit for letting Z go…with that back injury, it would have been dumb to keep him given how well 52 and 91 were playing. Picking up year 5 on Savage was dumb unless you bring in a DC who plays him where he belongs as a robber.
Gutey gets heaps of steaming turds for his “strategery” on building OL, WR and TE depth. To Pakrz point…what was the reason to bring in 12 at $50M per as an “all in” if you weren’t able to bring in the supporting cast? We’ve got a Ferrari V12, but we are riding on 4 bald tires from Walmart. I don’t buy Gutey brought back 12 because he thought highly of him…he brought him back because in spite of all the Packer media fanboys (Herman, Bukowski, etc) assertions, 10 is nowhere near fucking ready to be QB1. If had even a glimmer of hope of being 12 in his first year as a starter, warts and all, he’d be starting and 12 would be in Denver.
MLF is an offensive genius, he’s smart and a nice guy…but he is showing his limits as a coach. Some is due to personnel, but good coaches find a way to win games like Washington, NYJ and Detoilet.
Lastly, the defense is the most enfuriating given the plethora of first rounders and high quality FA we have. Either Barry is a totally incompetent moran, or Gutey is as adept at scouting D players as he us O players. We can find bright spots and low spots for all of Gutey’s career…but at the end of the day he should be judged on how the team is performing. And this season it’s not good. But he’s not going anywhere any time soon, so our best hope is 2022 is the outlier, and 2023 he will make the requsite changes to get the Packers back to respectable.
The season is lost. That much is clear. At this point, you need to plan for the future so that means playing some of the younger guys (including Love) to see what you’ve got.
I also think they need to maximize the suck to get as much back in return by cutting or trading players, including Rodgers. Get as many picks or players as you can. The dead cap bill needs to be reconciled at some point, so might as well embrace the short term misery for long term solvency and flexibility.
There is no quick fix with this team, but ripping off the band aid and sucking 2-3 years will get them to a reset faster than continuing to fuck around and live in fantasy land like they are a few players away.
They took a swing (sort of) by bringing Rodgers back and it didn’t work. Time to go to Plan B. Light that fuse and boom goes the dynamite. The Saints aren’t in a much different situation, but they are already a year or two ahead of their rebuild.
@Chongo posted:Blame the players all you want, if this thing truly is as broke-dick as many seem to think, the blame will ultimately lay at the feet of two people…Gutey and MLF. It will remain a work in progress well beyond 12 and 69’s tenures here.
While it is disappointing in the job Gutey and MLF have done I put the blame solely on Murphy with his silos and on Ballz. Why Ballz, As the cap guru he must have told Gutey and Murphy we can afford the huge contract to AR12 and still keep the developing stars like Jones, Gary and Jaire plus solid vets like Amos and Jenkins, Bakh and Kenny Clark. Was he ever wrong. And I also mostly blame Murphy for the lack of trading AR12. Whether Love was ready or not Murphy must have thought the fan base would revolt like many did with the Favre debacle. Murphy did not want to put himself in that situation again. So my blame goes to those 2 morons.
Maybe I missed it, but how does anyone know Murphy blocked the trade of 12?
@PackerHawk posted:Did anyone actually read that wall of text? I skim past every one of his posts because it's 1 of 2 or 3 things regurgitated over and over again.
I read the first sentence. Powerful stuff.
@FLPACKER posted:Right now it looks like it would be best for everyone if AR retires after the season.
And walk away from 100 million dollars?😂😂😂😂😂
@R MaN posted:Maybe I missed it, but how does anyone know Murphy blocked the trade of 12?
Because people dislike Murphy more than Gute so it had to be him
The real question in my mind is so we have any concrete proof that there was a blockbuster trade offer for Kaaron to begin with?
There may be an exception. But no one here or outside of the organization knows the inner workings, conversations, that go on inside of 1265 Lombardi Avenue.
@Tschmack posted:The season is lost. That much is clear. At this point, you need to plan for the future so that means playing some of the younger guys (including Love) to see what you’ve got.
I also think they need to maximize the suck to get as much back in return by cutting or trading players, including Rodgers. Get as many picks or players as you can. The dead cap bill needs to be reconciled at some point, so might as well embrace the short term misery for long term solvency and flexibility.
There is no quick fix with this team, but ripping off the band aid and sucking 2-3 years will get them to a reset faster than continuing to fuck around and live in fantasy land like they are a few players away.
They took a swing (sort of) by bringing Rodgers back and it didn’t work. Time to go to Plan B. Light that fuse and boom goes the dynamite. The Saints aren’t in a much different situation, but they are already a year or two ahead of their rebuild.
The dead cap situation is so bad if they cut Rodgers and Bahk that they would have a hard time feilding a team and being under the cap. I dont mean a competitive team, I mean they would have a hard time getting 50 players on the payroll.
If they cut Rodgers right now, they instantly go over the cap. If they cut him in the offseason, they are 63 million over the cap.
They are fucked.
They have to ride with those guys for the next 2 seasons at least. So trading guys like Jones and Gary makes a lot of sense if you think that the window for 12 and 69 has closed.
@R MaN posted:Maybe I missed it, but how does anyone know Murphy blocked the trade of 12?
That’s a freakin stupid question……they saw it on Al Gores internet
@Pikes Peak posted:That’s a freakin stupid question……they saw it on Al Gores internet
That’s it. We have a winner.
@R MaN posted:Maybe I missed it, but how does anyone know Murphy blocked the trade of 12?
It is probably combo platter, I do think the opportunity was there, a trade for a big package.
Murph was scared of the fan reaction, Gutey knows #10 ain’t it, MLF said hey,I can win 13 with 12 and Ballsie knowing the cap is going up said we can manage it.
@R MaN posted:Maybe I missed it, but how does anyone know Murphy blocked the trade of 12?
When you factor in what was said by Shefty and other talking heads and the Twitter posts of Mark Scheleth it certainly seems a trade with Denver was about to happen. Maybe 1 guy gets the rumor mill story wrong, but not several with the different connections they have. If Gutey had a trade worked out but it never went thru somebody, certainly not Gutey himself, but someone higher up stopped the deal from happening. And points directly to Murphy.
@Pikes Peak posted:It is probably combo platter, I do think the opportunity was there, a trade for a big package.
Murph was scared of the fan reaction, Gutey knows #10 ain’t it, MLF said hey,I can win 13 with 12 and Ballsie knowing the cap is going up said we can manage it.
We don’t know any of that and won’t.
Go ahead and try and field a team in 2023 after cutting or trading Rodgers.
@BrainDed posted:The dead cap situation is so bad if they cut Rodgers and Bahk that they would have a hard time feilding a team and being under the cap. I dont mean a competitive team, I mean they would have a hard time getting 50 players on the payroll.
If they cut Rodgers right now, they instantly go over the cap. If they cut him in the offseason, they are 63 million over the cap.
They are fucked.
They have to ride with those guys for the next 2 seasons at least. So trading guys like Jones and Gary makes a lot of sense if you think that the window for 12 and 69 has closed.
In some respects, Rodgers' contact was a 2 year deal.
As you point out they are tied to him for next year, unless they can spread out the dead cap hit over multiple years if they trade him after June 1. Otherwise, he has a 32 million cap next year, but counts 100 million in dead cap if they move on.
In 2024, he has a cap hit of 41 million and a dead cap charge of 25 million. I think it's pretty likely they won't be paying 16 million more to keep him on the roster at that point.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/gr.../aaron-rodgers-3745/
Bakh is a different story. He counts more against the cap next year if he's on the team (29 million) than if they move on (23 million dead cap).
@Packiderm posted:This team is snake bit. Yes 30 years of Pro Bowl level QB'S but 2 Super Bowl titles. Should have been more.But injuries that set the team back like Nick Collins, Jordy's knee and rib shot, Bacteria 2 years+ knee, Jenkins ,Tonyan and now Gary. Plus the Fail Mary , Bostick. Shitty calls and non calls. What was it? 6 or 7 starters dropped out of the game yesterday. Look at the Vikings. What, they lost a TE? I don't think they're missing anyone else. Plus the guy who replaced him has like an 8 catch game. Detroit had two practice squad guys catching TD'S yesterday.
Luck is a huge factor in winning it all, especially when it comes to injuries.
@ammo posted:While it is disappointing in the job Gutey and MLF have done I put the blame solely on Murphy with his silos and on Ballz. Why Ballz, As the cap guru he must have told Gutey and Murphy we can afford the huge contract to AR12 and still keep the developing stars like Jones, Gary and Jaire plus solid vets like Amos and Jenkins, Bakh and Kenny Clark. Was he ever wrong. And I also mostly blame Murphy for the lack of trading AR12. Whether Love was ready or not Murphy must have thought the fan base would revolt like many did with the Favre debacle. Murphy did not want to put himself in that situation again. So my blame goes to those 2 morons.
Mine too.
@ammo posted:When you factor in what was said by Shefty and other talking heads and the Twitter posts of Mark Scheleth it certainly seems a trade with Denver was about to happen. Maybe 1 guy gets the rumor mill story wrong, but not several with the different connections they have. If Gutey had a trade worked out but it never went thru somebody, certainly not Gutey himself, but someone higher up stopped the deal from happening. And points directly to Murphy.
Yep, I live in Denver. Although there's no "concrete" proof Denver was going to make a deal for Rodgers, reports on all Denver media were reporting the trade was imminent. The details of the trade were never released, but you have to think it was a similar or even better offer for AR who was coming off another MVP season.
Bottom line, it was a mistake not to pull the trigger on that deal, and a deal that big probably doesn't go down in Murphy's silo system without MurphyBallz' input or perhaps even permission. Sadly, a lot of fans got hoodwinked by the rhetoric of going "all in" this year and that AR was our best chance at a SB win even though under the best of circumstances, we still couldn't even get to the SB with AR. It was time to move on and the Packers' brass blew it, IMHO.
@MichiganPacker posted:In some respects, Rodgers' contact was a 2 year deal.
As you point out they are tied to him for next year, unless they can spread out the dead cap hit over multiple years if they trade him after June 1. Otherwise, he has a 32 million cap next year, but counts 100 million in dead cap if they move on.
In 2024, he has a cap hit of 41 million and a dead cap charge of 25 million. I think it's pretty likely they won't be paying 16 million more to keep him on the roster at that point.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/gr.../aaron-rodgers-3745/
Bakh is a different story. He counts more against the cap next year if he's on the team (29 million) than if they move on (23 million dead cap).
Ouch. What a horrible miscalculation by the silo.
@D J posted:My point too was before Gary tore his ACL how were the Packers going to afford him after 2023? But guys like El-Ka-Bong can't understand any of this as we discuss the coming cap hell and seem to believe the Packers have some magical way of paying a healthy Gary in spite of the cap hell.
IOW, before he tore his ACL Gary was going to walk after the 2023 season because the Packers couldn't afford him.
This presents a problem. You can't pay a guy big money coming off an ACL injury, and his potential cap hit was already a coming issue. I guess we have some time to see how it plays out.
@D J posted:El-Ka-Bong can't understand any of this
Literally should be the tag line next to his username
Bong is the Kyrie Irving of X4.
@MichiganPacker posted:In some respects, Rodgers' contact was a 2 year deal.
As you point out they are tied to him for next year, unless they can spread out the dead cap hit over multiple years if they trade him after June 1. Otherwise, he has a 32 million cap next year, but counts 100 million in dead cap if they move on.
In 2024, he has a cap hit of 41 million and a dead cap charge of 25 million. I think it's pretty likely they won't be paying 16 million more to keep him on the roster at that point.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/gr.../aaron-rodgers-3745/
Bakh is a different story. He counts more against the cap next year if he's on the team (29 million) than if they move on (23 million dead cap).
Yup.
There is a possibility of trading him or cutting him for the 2024 season. But they are married for this year and next, no avoiding it.
If he turns it around, you could still get something for him at the start of the 2024 season. He would be 40, but Brady won with Tampa at 41. Somebody would give you a pick for the name and the chance. Packers would eat some dead cap, but it wouldn't be debilitating like it would be now or 2023.
As long as I get to be in charge of all Leinenkugels. You can build whatever you want.
I’m no cap guy, but if they trade him after June 1 next year what happens to the $$$? Do the Packers assume the full liability or can the team acquiring him absorb or restructure what’s left?
I ask this because I recall Rodgers saying it’s a “year to year” extension. Although, be may have been tripping or high when he said it.
@BrainDed posted:Go ahead and try and field a team in 2023 after cutting or trading Rodgers.
Is GB in the same situation if he retires before his contract is up?
@R MaN posted:Maybe I missed it, but how does anyone know Murphy blocked the trade of 12?
You didn't miss a damn thing... other than a few message board posters who completely made up a bunch of BS. Then of course, a few others have to chime in with more BS. Next thing you know, Rodgers was absolutely headed to Denver for a king's ransom but that SOB Murphy had to fuck it all up.
Sheesh. Pay attention R Man.