The Wizard ain't dead yet

gonna complete hose Micah Hyde

Henry, a call on the white courtesy phone, Henry, the white courtesy phone.

Seriously, looking for your take and responses. The Norvening and similar threads/posts sparked some of the best discussions we've had on the board.

Well, looking around at our ILBs, almost all of them can rove outside at will. They are all experienced outside, and have the size to rush and cover TEs and RBs floating out as receivers.

Then we have both Hyde and Richardson. Hyde was working with Safeties exclusively the last two open OTAs. Both players look like money, and they are versatile. Randall may work in here as well. Have to wait and see how they plan to use him. I guess the same for Rollins, but I consider him more of an outside CB.

Lots of interchangeable parts behind our DL that can shift into any number of formations and coverages.

I've mentioned this before, but in many respects the Packers are building a defense that can handle their own up-tempo go fast offense - without needing to substitute

They can change a defense by moving an outside guy inside or an inside guy out

They can adapt between 3-3-5 and 2-4-5 and 3-4 with the same personnel on the field

Go Packers

I've never had a doubt that Capers could scheme, my question is his implementation and some of the stooges underneath him.  Again, I think MM taking a true HC role is going to be a boon for Capers and MM.  Instead of talking about what could be (talking about Matthews playing the middle in TC but waiting 8 games in to do it) you have MM pulling the trigger.  My hope is more experimentation for each individual opponent but have the clarity of mind and swiftness of action to know when it's going over like a lead balloon.

Capers is a great tactician.  Actual coaching, not so much.

Yup, Henry, I agree. Capers is awesome at innovation and scheme, but coaching is an entirely different skill set.

players, not plays

oversimplified

Let's shed some more light on all the changes that took place in the Packers defense over the 2nd half of the season

And fortunately for us, Mr McGinn took it upon himself to pull it all together for our benefit. Its a good read and well worth your time.

I suggest you set your mind to the "Open" setting before you start. 

http://www.jsonline.com/sports...753z1-287430621.html

"When the Green Bay Packers' defense was at low ebb two months ago, adjusting the role of Clay Matthews and several other players wasn't the team's only major response.

Heaping more responsibility on the secondary, especially the cornerbacks, was the other."

Clay only played 28% of his snaps at ILB post -bye. So suggesting that was the sole source of improvement seems a stretch to me, but others feel differently.

"Green Bay's remarkable rise as a run defense can be attributed to many factors, particularly using Matthews at inside linebacker while at the same time reducing the role of A.J. Hawk.

Just as critical has been the Packers' decision from Game 9 on to sell out stopping the run."

"The Packers tried to play defense early with a seven-man box. They found out that nose tackle B.J. Raji was missed, the defensive line was ordinary and the inside linebackers were borderline awful.

At the same time, Capers made the decision to blitz even more than he had in the first eight games."

"The eight-man box gave the improving Burnett the chance to register a career-high 99 solo tackles and a team-high 125 total tackles."

"So let's add it up.

The talent, speed, size and nerve of their cornerbacks enabled the Packers to turn around an inept first-half performance against the run by permitting Capers to remove a safety from coverage and consistently creep him into the box.

At the same time, Capers blitzed even more knowing his cornerbacks would hold tight regardless of coverage or opponent.

That's the definition of a job well done."

There were many changes that happened over the 2nd half of the season, ascribing it all to Matthews is way over-simplified, but fans like it because they can grasp it

The Packers have 5 DBs on the field for the vast majority of downs. Capers used (2) of the 5 DBs to help stop the run. He brought Burnett into the box early and often and he played Hyde over Hayward as the nickel back... because Hyde is a better run stopper than Casey. Its hard for some to imagine that changing DB play would improve the run defense, but in fact that's a big part of what happened. Kinda cool and it speaks to the idea that defense takes all 11 guys working in harmony

I know some of you will never change your minds ( Capers Sucks !) irregardless of how much evidence you're given and that's fine. Too much time in the Brewers forum will do that to a  person.

I will continue to lead you towards the golden waters of enlightenment, but I know can't make you drink.

Go Packers

Ok, ok, ok. Let's put it into this scenario:

Imagine you are a classroom teacher in a generic school setting. Your pick of subject, grade level, population of disvantagedes and "white privilege", etc. Your class roster includes:

* A future valedictorian (Woodson)

* An up-and-comer, probably will get to a solid state school on a full scholarship (Collins)

* Another bright student, his dad is a wealthy investment banker but doesn't come off as that cocky. (Matthews)

* A loveable teddy bear who sometimes makes bad choices on the weekend but is so darn affable the everyone likes him and that in turn keeps him focused on high achievement. (Raji)

* A homeless kid who wandered in one day but apparently did some reading in the shelter and is personally mentored by the valedictorian (Shields)

* A perennial C+ stupid but has perfect attendance and leads by example (Hawk).

Among many others.

So the big state test is coming up, and because of Arne Duncan's RTTT APPR reform standardized testing crapola, you need to get a high success rate on this big standardized test each year, or you're fired. With this crowd, you're feeling pretty darn good about yourself. A couple of characters, but they're all good kids and are eager to please. It's exam day, and then all of a sudden, the flies start dropping. The valedictorian gets mono after the third question, and the homeless kid has a nervous breakdown and has to be removed from the exam room. Thankfully, he regains his composure and comes back into finish the test. Exams are graded, and you get enough passing scores, albeit its a nailbiter to pass. Your scraps came up big. One of the fat goofy kids who you're pretty sure is the school heroin dealer was able to hit a home run on the extended response. Phew! On to the next year!

Good news! Your class roster hasn't changed too much! Just about everyone is back, some new faces in the back. What can go wrong? Well, about 3 weeks into the school year, you get bad news. Your sure-fire state-school-scholarship-student? He got into a bad car accident. Broke his neck. It's so bad, he has to withdraw from your school and go into a hospital-setting school for the rest of his school days. Poor guy. And even worse is that it disrupts the flow of your classroom. The administration sends some new kids into your class. They're ok, nice enough kids, but probably going to community college one day, at best. Exam day comes again, and even though they had good grades all year, your kids bomb the multiple choice. It's bad. In fact, they have the worst overall age on the multiple choice in the whole district! Not good. Thankfully, they saved themselves on the essays somehow, so you're not completely fired, but now your colleagues are starting to doubt you. Whispers abound.

So next school year comes, and it's a fresh start. Shake it off after the summer, amirite? You got a new kid in your class, used to play little league with the banker's son. They sit near each other so that should make a good match right? (Perry) You also have another fat kid join you. He's a bit troubled, but the principal is sure with your mentorship and the other strong students in your class, he's sure to make a rebound (Worthy). Also, you got rid of one of those "meh" kids who came in after StateBound got hurt. In his place is a nice new kid who no one really knows but gets an A on his summer reading and immediately comes in ready to go! (Hayward) There's one more new kid, came from a different class, the remedial group. His parents think he's ready for the rigors of a regular class setting since he's made so much progress. In fact, they think he'll be a doctor one day! (Jennings)

So with so much potential, you think you'll be able to move on from last year's disappointment and reclaim your status in the school's pecking order? Not so fast. The kid who's friends with your SonofBanker has a bad injury and has to miss the rest of the school year after Christmas break. He wasn't even making that much progress anyway. He still pronounces silent L's for Lombardi's sake! Your new project from the Principal isn't much better. He never does his homework, doesn't participate, and just sits there and takes up space. Group projects for him just involve him eating chips while his classmates do all the hard work. The future doctor isn't adjusting well. He has some Ok days, but for the most part is a big distraction. You've even had to write him up a few times. But they won't take him out of your room. You're stuck with him. SummerReading had a great start to the year, but got suspended for unleashing crickets in the cafeteria as a prank. You lose him for a few weeks. TeddyBear is still there, but he's not the same. You suddenly notice his grades going down. Mostly you teach by lecture, not many notes on the board. He seems less engaged than usual. Sadly, your most reliable student, PerfectAttendance, gives it his all but still struggles. Fractions on a number line will just never be his thing. Despite this, you've got some hope. That homeless kid is quietly becoming one of your better pupils; mad fast too, he's always the first one done with his test. With all that turmoil, you still end up doing Ok. You beat that other class (Who all wear purple for some stupid reason) in the school spelling bee. But at final exam time, still not that great. They do a little better than last year, but not much. More people are talking. You're past your prime, you're the reason tenure should be abolished, etc. And it's not completely your fault. You've been doing this for years, you stay far late grading papers, you're generally well admired by your students. Maybe it' time to change some things though. Get rid of some old materials, attend professional development. The curriculum has changed, why not you?

So let's fast forward now two years. It's a new school year, and there's been a lot of change. Valedictorian graduated. FutureDoctor deteriorated and got himself expelled, much to your relief, as did Project. You still have Homeless, SonofBanker and his Little League Buddy (who's gotten a little bit better), Teddy Bear has gotten meds for his new ADD and you have adjusted your teaching methods to go back to visuals which is what he likes. You also have some new kids, a kid with a Funny Name who you immediately like more than FutureDoctor, and someone named Joe Smith, who's just there but isn't too threatening. Also, it's go time. Everyone agrees if you can't get your test results back up, you're done. Your principal is sitting in on your classroom more, not as a babysitter, but more in a support role. He thinks better communication between you two will help.

And it works! End of the year comes, and almost everyone passes the state exam! And by almost, C+ and Joe Smith did not. They bombed. Horribly. They are "counseled" into GED programs by their counselors and you are now done with them. So what made the difference?

1.) Updating your methods and materials.

2.) Increasing your communication with your superiors.

3.) Having a different cliental of students. Even the greatest teachers in the world cannot polish a turd. There is a marked difference between a room that has FutureDoctor and one that has FunnyName. Ultimately you give them all the information they need. It's up to them to use it correctly or not.

P.S. I neglected to mention that the room next door has a gifted student with a 141 IQ (Rodgers), the Prom King (Nelson), the track star (Cobb), Most Likely to Succeed (Sitton), the most popular kid in school (Kuhn) the star of the school musical (Linsley), and a fat horse (Lacy). Talk about competition.

That was a whole 12 pack of Mountain Dew to write that I'm guessing.

Just an Adderal. Strong stuff.

Mountain Lightning. 

Back-to-back bloviations, X4 is truly blessed today

Interesting to note how the choice of fuels impacts the final product

For whatever reasons, Capers has been DC for 6 seasons and the defense hasn't been very good for the majority of that time.

Mike Pennel hardly played at all from week 10 through the remainder of the season, and for good reason. He sucked. Did next to nothing from week 1-10.

We were really in need of a quality backup NT for many years, since we lost Howard Green at the end of the Super Bowl winning 2010 season.

Now, we still don't really have that quality backup on the roster, and we are left hoping Raji stays healthy throughout this 2015 season, and that he plays well. Quality NT play is essential to Dom's defense. We saw a change for the better last year when Guion gave us inspired play there mostly from week 10 on. Maybe Bruce Gaston comes in and does something this year.

I wish we had landed another NT in this draft.

heyward, I think the D losing Jenkins and Collins, Woodson's decline, Hawk's big fade and really poor ILB and DL play in general since 2010 are some of the reasons. Add to that Ted Thompson taking 3 years to address the gaping hole at Safety, and never really replacing Jenkins, nor providing quality backup for Raji at NT.

There you have it. Dom can't run his D if he doesn't have the players. They were ranked #2 in the NFL when he had the players, then dropped to #25 the following year, after Jenkins and Green were allowed to walk, and Collins went down.

IMO, Nick Perry and Datone Jones were horrible first round picks. Neither one has done anything to help us up front. The problems were then compounded last year with the wasted 3rd round pick of Thornton.

You expect immediate impact from selections that high. We've gotten a near zero return from all 3 players thus far.

How much of this is on Capers? How much is on Thompson? I believe more on Thompson. While he doesn't make a ton of mistakes, and they are becoming fewer the last 3 years, the ones he has made are really affecting our play in a negative way.

I see what you are positing, and I don't think I've every subscribed to the statement you made above.  I've never felt the move of Clay was the tipping point, though his upgrade over Hawk was significantly significant.  

I think the tipping point was when McCarthy decided to take on a much larger role in the defense (heretofore known as "the boot").  To say "players, not plays" oversimplifies things in my mind.  Dom could have moved anyone at any time.  To rest blame for our defense on players not doing what they should have done is an oversimplified view of his defenses historical shortcomings.  I believe there is better and weaker coaching, and play on the field will reflect that.  Same goes with talent, but I have seen extremely talented group fail and less talented group succeed.  

Back to moving Clay, it seems the venerable Chuck Woodson brought it up to Dom a long time ago, “What’s crazy is when I was here, I used to try to urge (defensive coordinator) Dom (Capers) to use Clay a little bit more in other areas of the field,” Woodson said. “Let him be the guy that people have to worry about where he’s going to be at rather than just being on one side. I could play the nickel or just a corner or whatever, but let that guy move around because he’s a beast, man.  If I remember correctly, this isn't the only time Chuck has questioned how coach used the talent at his disposal (not that Chuck is the first player to question a coach either...).  It seems the move ended up being Mike's call (admittedly speculation) when the pattern of the defense going to **** started up again.  

I think I've been consistent that I feel Caper's units have underperformed.  Mike, it seem, has agreed with me in the past.  McCarthy doesn't believe his players are the problem, but defensive coordinator Dom Capers is under the microscope. Green Bay's defense ranked 22nd in the NFL last season against the pass and 17th against the run, but the central problem was a tendency to collapse when it mattered most.  

Now after the boot, things seemed to take different turn.  If Dom's schemes with Mike's leadership and it works, then it works and I am thrilled.  If it means the product on the field is better, that I am cool with the system.  Like I said before, I feel that in Dom's tenure in Green Bay, his defenses have played below expectations more than they have exceeded them.  The defensive numbers reflect more poor defenses than one would expect from a defensive guru and innovator, I don't think it is outrageous to put some of the defenses consistent shortcomings on the coordinator.   I know some guys will never change their minds irregardless of how much evidence they are given, and that's fine.  

Based on how things ended last year, and Mike's statements about more attention to other facets of coaching (specifically defense and special teams), I have high hopes for this defense next year.  More than I did going into last year.  Other than Ted screwing over Micah Hyde, I think this entire team is poised for great things.  

Hmmm. McCarthy may not see his players being the problem, but I sure do, looking back these past few years.

We finally got a high quality Safety in Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, and all of a sudden, Morgan Burnett is playing better. Imagine that!

We dump Hawk's and Jone's reps at ILB and our run D improves. Imagine that!

We finally add a pass rusher in Julius Peppers opposite Matthews and our numbers improve. Imagine that!

Our defense has struggled, mostly due to some missing pieces, important pieces in our D. When the pieces started to be replaced with quality, we improved. Same coordinator. After being #2 in 2010, we ranked #25 in 2011, #8 in 2012, #31 in 2013 and #16 in 2014.

There were more that still required improvement after last season, and I think we will see that improvement this season, at both ILB positions and fresh young talent in our secondary. Now, if Datone jones can live up to his "best ever" monicker. That, or a replacement! We need better DL play than we have been getting. And, if Matthews shifts inside more, we will need pass rush opposite Peppers.

Woodson was in interesting player for us. He did so much to help our D. Losing him was a tough blow. He started getting too grabby in pass coverage due to his slipping speed. But, he still knew how to play. Micah Hyde helps cover some for that loss.

Grabby, aging Charles Woodson?!?!?!?!

There will be no such talk of Charles in this manner. Soldier of Green Bay. Honor him!

No question the defense lacked talent in some areas, but I still think Dom managed to do less with more.

Well, I agree, and was in the middle of editing that out for the most part. It was not accurate, entirely the way I said it. But, you have to admit he held a lot after losing his speed. He was one of my favorite players.

You know what Chillijon, maybe the holes at S next to Burnett and the lack of pass rush hurt Woodson just as much as the loss of speed in his game. That's possible.

heyward, where did he really have more? I don't get that. We've been maligned on our DL since losing Jenkins 5 years ago, and Mike Daniels is just one player, and he is good, but not great.

Things are looking up on the talent end. But, draft and develop is a slow moving train, and we are seeing just how slow that can be if you have just a few bad misses early in drafts.

I agree having having guys like Dix and Pepper's helped, never said it didn't.  I do feel 2011, 12 and 13 underperformed.  

As it related to Dom though, many said rookies and youth were the problem because they couldn't handle his schemes, until Dix came in that is.  I can only assume the addition of Dix made Burnett more talented.  

Dumping Hawk should have happened a long time ago, but it didn't happen until the boot stepped in.  Dom always referred to Hawk as a coach on the field, critical for setting the defense.  

Peppers was a great addition, should Ted continue to pursue more free agents like him?  

I do think talented players make a difference, I'm just concerned about having a coach that can only succeed with exceptional talent (I want a coach who elevates whoever he has- a unit better than the sum of it's parts).  I also think all those big game meltdown have to rest in some part on the defensive coordinator.  

I'm glad to see Dom is communicating with his players now, I'm glad to see Mike is taking a larger role in the defense and I think the talent on defense is more than enough to compliment the offense on a run to the Superbowl.  No more excuses, it is time.  

I totally agree El-Ka-Bong.

McCarthy has to have a handle on his D, and he should have had a better handle on it the last few years. The meltdowns were epic. We were poised to win offensively, but our D has been lacking in talent, and D and D can only move so fast.

Maybe one or two more of those kinds of signings in FA, like Peppers, could help. Or, a trade. Trouble with that is the players aren't always there to be had in FA, much like this season. There was not a whole lot to chose from.

Very well done and I appreciate the links and comments you added in stating your case. Kudos dude. In addition to Woodson griping, Cullen Jenkins bitched about the defensive changes too; and then went on to have a career year and parlay that into a huge payday.

Players play, coaches coach.

Expectations can be dangerous things.  I'm not sure your expectations are aligned with reality, hence your consistent disappointment when those un-realistic expectations aren't met.

There are many who feel the opposite - that the Packers defense have over-achieved given all the suckitude of the players on the field. Boris has spent a bazillion $$ on bandwidth to allow fans to bitch and moan about how many of these defensive players suck.

No need to re-hash it here. Plus we all know Thompson sucks at drafting too.

Capers surely has his weaknesses( bad hair), but neither he nor anybody else can make a Championship squad without talented players.  Vic Fangio is a very talented DC - but what happened when he lost Willis and Bowman ? He lost his job and is now in Chicago. Talk about a talentless bunch ? We'll see how awesome Fangio is without talented players in 2015.

Its not all players and its not all coaching. But of the two, players matter a lot more  than the coaching in my opinion. The list of coaches who went from "schitty" to "awesome" upon the addition of talented players is quite extensive. MM gets short-shrifted because of Rodgers, even though Rodgers isn't Rodgers without MM

MM is using his boot to great effect, but MM couldn't call a defensive game if his life depended on it. Nor would he try. He's simply adding some of his offensive acumen and applying his HC boot as noted by others.

Dom was under the microscope - they all are. And what was the result of that microscopic review ? Capers is still here

MM fired his longtime friend Slocum, that showed he's willing to make changes no matter how difficult they may be. They also fired a previous DC and completely changed the defense in 2009, so history suggests they are willing to make the tough moves where warranted

The self-scouting revealed that some changes are in order and that's exactly what a good manager does. He works on making things better. If a guy needs to be fired, he gets fired. If a guy needs a few teaks, he gets the tweaks

I believe that if MM and TT felt that firing Capers was the answer - they would.

But they didn't come to that conclusion and that suggests something to me.

I'm not qualified to make that call, so I look to the ones who are qualified.

Others feel differently and that's cool too.

I'd guess that 2015 will be a watershed year in this ongoing debate

Go Packers

Grave Digger grinning ear to ear reading the last dozen or so posts.

Here's another good read from McGinn- this time its a ranking of players within the NFC North done by personnel guys in the NFC. I looked at the defense

Keeping in mind that these rankings are only within the NFC North, its rather illuminating to see how few of the Packers defenders are rated number 1 at their position in this division, let alone across the NFC or the NFL.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports...362z1-286942191.html

A whole team? Of course not. A segment of the team, yes.  Pittsburgh Steelers and their oline.  They were able to mask the deficiency, a big deficiency, and win a Superb Owl. 

As as far as this being a watershed year for the debate on Capers, that ship called the Norvening sailed a few years ago. This will be more of a watershed on MM and his big old boot as a true HC.  

Perhaps with better coaching we'd have a few guys at the top.   

The world may never know.  

Your question and my statement reflect two different things.  An example of the scenario I posed would be this.

I think you should just quit now Satori.