TT moves

really? Not signing shiny free agents is why we aren't in the superbowl?

Emphasis on drafting is only good enough to get you there?

You can't fault TT's philosophy for the inexplicable meltdown by the offense in the playoffs.

quote:

Originally posted by NJWIS:
I hope TT learned a valuable lesson that drafting alone isn't going to keep your team championship caliber year after year.

If that's the 'lesson' he learned, then this season truly was a failure on all levels.

The defense melted down just as much as the Offense as that game showed. Pinball tackling on the Nicks TD and the crappy Hail Mary was 14 points. Last year the defense helped win as many games as the offense did.

This year the Offense was the main reason for 15 of the wins.

Who is saying we needed High priced FAs. Resigning JJ and Hawk were bad calls when the money would have been better spent on Jenkins or other Dline help.

Wynn/CJ/Neal production expectations were based on what? Hopes? Nothing in their past work showed they would fulfill the needs for a Dom Capers defense.

THAT BEING SAID......

Im willing to move on. Does anyone here think TT has the same MO as last year or does he try to make some creative/unexpected moves.

quote:

Originally posted by NJWIS:


I hope TT learned a valuable lesson that drafting alone isn't going to keep your team championship caliber year after year.

Remember when drafting alone wasn't going to build any playoff teams? FA moves get fans excited. They don't win you squat. Signing JJ was a mistake? Have you seen the numbers he signed for?

On defense there are too many old players and too many really young players. Keep developing the young guys, draft more young guys to replace old guys and keep winning.

I agree the Hawk signing was a mistake.

TT knows better than anyone what this team needs..and he will address it in the off season. Sitting here this Sunday morning I cannot believe we are not hosting the 9'ers... I am also looking forward to next year even more now.

TT went from jeanyous to idiot with one playoff loss. I too hope he learned a valuable lesson: Fans are stupid. Never listen to them.

YOTDD

and too many people on x4 thinks its either black or white when it comes to TT. Who called him stupid? Nice deflection though.

Tell me this Pakrz is JJ or Hawk worth having on this team next year if it means the defense will be just as bad?

I don't know about you but I want to watch the packers become a dominant team like the 49ers, cowboys, or patriots were.

NJWIS,

I estimate that 95 plus % of us understand what the Packers need. Someone with his hand on the ground that can beat a one on one and get to the QB and an OLB to help CM3. If we see it, I'm sure TT already has a map of the best way to get both done.

With AR12 at QB you can pencil this team in for 11 wins each year for the next 5 years. TT needs to add a couple pieces that force QB's to get rid of the ball before they want to. Like a lot of great d coordinators. Capers is at his best when he dials up blitzes when he wants to, not becasue he has to.

Not resigning Jenkins, with what was known at the time, was a good move. Jenkins missed many games in 2 of the 3 previous season with injuries. He missed 4-5 games down the stretch in the Super Bowl season. Over 30, and with an injury history, was a reason not to resign.

The mistake was believing the collection of Zombo, Walden, Jones would produce a pass rusher to complement Matthews--and that there was nobody on the roster to step in if Clifton went down. The Packers picked Sherrod because they didn't believe Newhouse would be able to fill in if Clifton went down.

Had the Packers instead thought Newhouse was ready, then they would/could have used that pick to select the pass rushing complement to Matthews. There were players available--Brooks Reed or Jabaal Shearad. (See McGinn's article)

The Packers may cut Hawk loose, but DJ Smith isn't a sure fire upgrade. He played well against the Lions, not so well against the Giants. The Packers aren't going to trade any of their receivers, either for draft picks or players.

Instead, Thompson will have to find his pass rusher in the draft, or pay for a free agent to fill that spot.

Nice post, CJ. Of course, the problem is the solution to these problems are seldom available by quick fix nor by the snap of a finger. Often, the solution can take some time to materialize. How many sacks did Jason Pierre Paul have last year? Yet with a year of development, look what the Giants found. TT must continue to draft well. That is the key to the future of this defense.

I think TT's biggest mistake with respect to DL, specifically grooming young replacements, was to TWICE draft high on injured players. A #1 on Harrell and a #2 on Neal. Now, Neal might make it, but even if he does, that does not undo the lack of solid and frequent DL play from him this past year.

As I look at the situation, I don't think I am sitting here thinking I know much of anything. I am just looking at the data. For example, he seems to have an incredible knack for the WR position. Same for other positions such as CB.

When I look at the historical data, I just don't see the knack for acquiring solid DL play from the draft. Raji is an exception, but he was pretty easy. It was a glaring need and he was everybody's #1 at NT.

Raji fell into TT's lap?

Rajis best position is nose tackle in the Packers scheme. And while I love Pickett, Raji is a better player. And the fact that those two are two of the three starting linemen is part of the problem. It is probably time to let Pickett go. IF the Packers played a 4-3 then you would have rooom for both but not in this scheme. Got to find at least one DE and maybe two if Neal does not heal.

Hawk just played awful this year. From the first game against New Orleans when he had no idea how to slow Sproles down to the sorry tackling game after game. He jsut will not wrap up a ball carrier. It is either trying to blow them up with a hit and they bounce off or just failing to touch them. I have say, I would have thought Hawk would have been a great LB but he is probably the weakest link on defense. Time to just let him go. After six years, he is not going to get any better.

The secondary got lazy this year. Kept going for the turnover instead of defending the pass.

Hopefully Collins comes back next year because if not, the Packers will need a safety early. Woodson is more of a hyprid corner/lb/safety anyway so he will be on the field regardless. Hopefully House is a player.

And while Ted has been remiss in signing other free agents, I would hope he could find a Woodson/Pickett type signing to help the defense. Even if he doesn't, I would think the defense has to be better next year. It has no place to go but up.

Hopefully he will divert his full attention to making the defense a thing of pride to go with the offense he helped create,if he doesnt he will be judged as inept and the TT haters ranks will fill pretty quickly with head scratchers who wonder why he stood pat again.

quote:

Originally posted by NJWIS:
and too many people on x4 thinks its either black or white when it comes to TT. Who called him stupid? Nice deflection though.

Tell me this Pakrz is JJ or Hawk worth having on this team next year if it means the defense will be just as bad?

I don't know about you but I want to watch the packers become a dominant team like the 49ers, cowboys, or patriots were.

Hawk probably won't be going anywhere... same for James Jones. There will be an opening on the roster if Driver hits the bricks but that will most likely be filled by Gurley. Jones can play. He also is young and has a team friendly contract. I'd keep him unless I could do a player for player type trade and those are rare. Besides, Jones was a FA last year and nobody was interested.

As for Hawk. I think he's an average player and is probably the 3rd best MLB on the roster behind Bishop and Smith. He did sign a substantial contract though so cutting him might be a significant cap hit for the Packers. So then what, trade him? I'm pretty sure 31 other teams have seen Hawk play and know what he brings to the table. Nobody will want his contract either.

Just because GB has some players that WE think have value doesn't mean we can just ship them off. It's not that easy. You have to have a willing trade partner. Contracts come into play as well as many other variables. Fans like to sit on message boards talking smart (Myself included) like we know what we're talking about it. In some cases, we do... However, most of us don't understand the dynamics involved with personnel moves.

The point of my original post in this thread was to simply point out that TT went from a superstar in some people's eyes to a guy that has put in a subpar performance recently. I mean, the Packers are the defending Super Bowl Champs and are coming off a dominant 15-1 season. That cannot be ignored.

Yep, I agree personnel changes need to be made. GB desperately needs an OLB that can create pressure opposite CMIII. I might be a homer, but I think CMIII has the ability to be one of the best OLB's to ever play in a 34 defense. I'd hate to never see that materialize because he's constantly fighting through double and triple teams. They also need a Safety to line up with Burnett. I'd be shocked if Collins came back. Another CB or two would help too, although I expect Williams and Shields to pick it up next season. And of course another body or two on the defensive line would help a ton. Guys like Wilson and Wynn are nobodies.

TT knows what he's doing. There is nothing that comes up on X4 or any other message board that he hasn't thought of months ago. Getting it done is a tough task and it's his responsibility. I trust the guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
Jones can play. He also is young and has a team friendly contract.

THIS!!! Not sure why NJWIS keeps bringing him up. His contract is a non-issue.

TT is a great GM, but not adding an OLB was a huge mistake. And that's not 20/20 hindsight. Many people on this board were very concerned about the pass rush when training camp started.

No doubt, he failed there, but was the solution really all that simple? Not sure that it was. Of course, I judge a GM by the results so TT gets full blame for failing to find a pass rushing OLB. I have a feeling he will find one sooner than later.

I bring up JJ because he is at most the 5th best WR on the team. putting millions into that part of the depth chart seems like a waste when there are so many needs on defense.

Lets say Philbin goes after Flynn. You don't think he would like to have a guy like JJ as well? Couple them together for a player or better draft pick. Teams wont be afraid of his drops from 2 years ago now. And they get the bonus of a cap friendly contract.

I doubt JJ is happy with his current position anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:
No doubt, he failed there, but was the solution really all that simple? Not sure that it was. Of course, I judge a GM by the results so TT gets full blame for failing to find a pass rushing OLB. I have a feeling he will find one sooner than later.

Maybe not simple, but he had to try. Adding Elmore, So'oto and Lattimore isn't trying nearly hard enough.

"At most, 5th best WR on the team..." Really?

If we know anything about TT it's that he loves his young players and strongly believes in developing them. Walden came off a pretty good season last year and Zombo had shown some promise. My guess is that TT thought one or both of those guys would continue to develop and turn into a good player. That obviously didn't happen. There's no doubt that we will see a guy starting at OLB next year that isn't on the current roster. Maybe the draft... maybe in FA. TT doesn't hit the FA market much but he's shown a willingness to do it in the past with Pickett and Woodson.

Speaking of... Does anybody have a current list of upcoming FA's for 2012?

quote:

Originally posted by slowmo:
"At most, 5th best WR on the team..." Really?

You want to bet that this is what happens at the end of the next Training Camp?

GJ
JN
JF
RC
JJ

quote:

Maybe not simple, but he had to try. Adding Elmore, So'oto and Lattimore isn't trying nearly hard enough.

Don't quit on So'oto just yet. He's the type of player that can develop into something pretty good. He played with his hand in the dirt until coming to GB. He has a pretty impressive skill set. Is he the answer next season? Probably not... but he might be in 2 years.

You realize Driver is 37, right? Plus JJ was more like a #3 or #4 than a #5. Well worth the money. Cobb was the bargain of the unit and the real number 5 and Driver is the guy you have to cut if you truly want to be objective, not JJ, who is more productive, younger and CHEAPER.

quote:

Originally posted by heyward:

quote:

Originally posted by Goalline:
No doubt, he failed there, but was the solution really all that simple? Not sure that it was. Of course, I judge a GM by the results so TT gets full blame for failing to find a pass rushing OLB. I have a feeling he will find one sooner than later.

"
Maybe not simple, but he had to try. Adding Elmore, So'oto and Lattimore isn't trying nearly hard enough.

For this year. Not sure that with a year of development one of those guys doesn't develop into the next "James Harrison", the undrafted beast. The odds are not in their favor.

Agree on the WR's. If I had to guess the pecking order next season it would be:

Jennings
Nelson
Cobb
Jones
Gurley

Packer fans love Driver to death and he still has some game left... but it's time to move on, especially when you consider his declining skill set and his contract. Besides, Cobb is ready to explode as a slot guy. Watch.

Jones is a bargain. Finley is a TE, although he sometimes lines up wide.

Right Goalline, but what if Jones is traded for a 3rd and a 5th or other DL or safety help? That too opens up a spot for Gurley. With the current contract Jones has that makes him very tradable.

Jones ain't bringing a 3rd. He was available for nothing last year and other teams ignored him. You don't want the DL that you could fetch in a trade for JJ. No question in my mind, he is most valuable as a member of our roster. Too many folks are so emotional over his drops the can't see the contributions he made to the 2nd highest scoring offense in NFL history.

quote:

Originally posted by NJWIS:

quote:

Originally posted by slowmo:
"At most, 5th best WR on the team..." Really?

You want to bet that this is what happens at the end of the next Training Camp?

GJ
JN
JF
RC
JJ

"JF" is not a WR, he's a TE.

Further, with the packages the Packers run they all are interchangeable and often off the field for stretches at a time. Jennings gets the most snaps and is in most packages. But, it wasn't unusual to see him off the field and a Finley/Nelson/Driver combo as the only WR/TE on the field.

Sure he has value in a trade... You never know I guess.

Let me ask: Why would a team give up a draft pick or another player for Jones when he was available last season as FA and nobody wanted him?

Don't get me wrong here. I think Jones is a pretty good receiver. Strong, good hands and deceptive speed. He's not a unique player though.

What do you guys think he would bring in trade value? As much as some of us think how good he is, he's a 4th or 5th receiver on our roster. I'm thinking somewhere in the area of a 6th round draft pick or a backup type defensive player. Is he worth moving for that? I don't think so...

Really I didnt know that JF was a TE? You learn something new everyday...

Why don't you list me the pecking order when it comes to who Arod will be throwing the ball to come next year?

JJ is a luxury. If TT knew JN would have a breakout year and that RC would develop so fast as the slot receiver I doubt JJ even gets the contract he did.

There has to be added value if you can package flynn and JJ together.

Sure Flynn and Jones have value... I wouldn't be opposed to see them leave in a trade at all. I just don't think it's that easy to do. If it's Miami, man would I love to see Cameron Wake playing opposite CMIII. Wow!!

quote:

Originally posted by NJWIS:
Really I didnt know that JF was a TE? You learn something new everyday...

I almost typed that too. I thought better of it.

If JJ hadn't come so cheap TT never sighs him.

quote:

Originally posted by Pakrz:
Sure Flynn and Jones have value... I wouldn't be opposed to see them leave in a trade at all. I just don't think it's that easy to do. If it's Miami, man would I love to see Cameron Wake playing opposite CMIII. Wow!!

Now, that's funny! Flynn, JJ, and a 1st, MAYBE.

I don't know if it's true that no teams were interested in Jones during free agency. I just don't think any teams were willing to pay him like a starter, so he chose to remain in Green Bay. Why not? TT gave him a decent contract and he seems very happy playing for the Packers.

I think Minnyhaha was interested...Yea I wouldn't go there either.