[QUOTE]Originally posted by RochNyFan:
. Would rather trade Tramon Williams for a decent draft pick....his poor year in 2011 was attributed to a shoulder injury, but what's the excuse for this year. He seems like the type that lands the big contract then regresses.QUOTE]
Only one flaw in this....other teams have tv's and tape and they have seen him play. I guess it depends on what you mean by decent draft pick....4th or 5th would be my guess.
It's interesting the varying opinions on Benson. I personally thought he was worthless and not a good fit for the offense. Other people think quite differently.
I've said it before, I like Harris, Starks, Green and Swain (when healthy) as a group. Also note that Cobb gets some carries as well. Maybe spend a lower pick if someone strikes your fancy but if not, I'm fine with this group (with the usual street FA's brought in for camp).
EDIT: Carter on Mike and Mike thinks the Pack doesn't have the talent to run, not the "want to." I disagree.
I've said it before, I like Harris, Starks, Green and Swain (when healthy) as a group. Also note that Cobb gets some carries as well. Maybe spend a lower pick if someone strikes your fancy but if not, I'm fine with this group (with the usual street FA's brought in for camp).
EDIT: Carter on Mike and Mike thinks the Pack doesn't have the talent to run, not the "want to." I disagree.
quote:Originally posted by BrainDed:
after watching last nights game, I'm in favor of tagging Jennings and letting Raji walk next year.
?????
AR was a big fan of Benson and if you can bring him back at the vet minimum there's no reason not to. Woodson will be back if he's willing to restructure and that probably applies to Hawk as well.
quote:Originally posted by RochNyFan:
I agree with much of Sep's post, with the exception of Woodson. I know his skills and speed are diminishing, but the secondary is still very young and I think it needs a veteran presence. If his cap number is not ridiculous, I would keep him.
If they can bring down Woodson's salary next season significantly, then I'm all for keeping him. But he's not the answer at Safety. And he wasn't even playing nickel-package corner once he returned from injury.
It's tough to say, but this team is nowhere near it was in 2010 from a personnel level -- meaning, it's probably best to let the high-priced aging veterans go in favor of developing young draft picks and maybe even one or two "big splash" free agency signings.
Edit: Forgot to mention Benson in my original post. If he'll come back next year for the veteran minimum, why not give him another chance? But I'm just as willing to move on.
For what it is worth I just heard Cris Carter on Mike and Mike and the Packers runnig game was being discussed. He said all running backs (when healthy) in the NFL have talent. Blocking and commitment to the run is what is needed for a good running game.
To me that means open some holes, run the ball more and most backs are good enough to get enough yds to make the team balanced.
I side with him, do not waste a high pick on a runner, there are very few that make a real difference. Concentrate on getting good blockers that can stay on the field and backups for them that can play.
The Pack has invested in some number 1's on the O line. They got hurt, it happens. Now is the time to search high and low for qualified back-ups for when and if it happens again.
No more Saturdays.
PS , I hated CC when he played but IMO he does have some good takes.
To me that means open some holes, run the ball more and most backs are good enough to get enough yds to make the team balanced.
I side with him, do not waste a high pick on a runner, there are very few that make a real difference. Concentrate on getting good blockers that can stay on the field and backups for them that can play.
The Pack has invested in some number 1's on the O line. They got hurt, it happens. Now is the time to search high and low for qualified back-ups for when and if it happens again.
No more Saturdays.
PS , I hated CC when he played but IMO he does have some good takes.
Gee Chrissy says you need run blockers to run. Who da thunk?
And commitment? After MM saw everyone pinning their ears back to take off AR's head in the pass happy go long offense, MM adjusted with more runs to give some semblance of a balanced attack. More this year than others, imo, because the OL was so bad early on.
(She gets paid for that drivel?)
And commitment? After MM saw everyone pinning their ears back to take off AR's head in the pass happy go long offense, MM adjusted with more runs to give some semblance of a balanced attack. More this year than others, imo, because the OL was so bad early on.
(She gets paid for that drivel?)
McGinn's analysis of the game was interesting to read.
The OL graded out as outstanding and he pointed out that the one play that Saturday had to play was one of the only ones where the SF DL got inside penetration and blew up a play.
He also pointed out that they directed all the running plays away from Matthews to make Walden make plays, which he didn't. Finally, he again emphasizes that Tramon now plays timid and Woodson athleticism has substantially regressed.
McGinn calls the decision to activate Driver instead of DJ Williams inexplicable.
I think one of TT and MM main problems the last two years has been they've held onto guys a year or two too long (or at least counted on guys to play bigger roles than they should). At the very least, they've perhaps been overly loyal to certain players when it's apparent they can't do the job at a high enough level anymore. I'd be the same way if I was them, so it's hard to criticize. But that's where Belichick is so good, it's almost like he has no emotion in the personnel decisions. If a guy can't play anymore in NE, he's gone, no matter what he's done in the past.
Donald Driver this year (and the number of snaps he played last year) was an obviuos situation where he was taking up a roster spot that should have gone to a guy they could develop. Clifton last year was the same thing. Woodson, Hawk, Peprah, Zombo, and a few others have been kept or paid beyond what they are worth.
Again, I would have been worse in terms of sentimentality. Of course, if it was someone like me at GM, we'd probably still have Favre around taking snaps.
The OL graded out as outstanding and he pointed out that the one play that Saturday had to play was one of the only ones where the SF DL got inside penetration and blew up a play.
He also pointed out that they directed all the running plays away from Matthews to make Walden make plays, which he didn't. Finally, he again emphasizes that Tramon now plays timid and Woodson athleticism has substantially regressed.
McGinn calls the decision to activate Driver instead of DJ Williams inexplicable.
I think one of TT and MM main problems the last two years has been they've held onto guys a year or two too long (or at least counted on guys to play bigger roles than they should). At the very least, they've perhaps been overly loyal to certain players when it's apparent they can't do the job at a high enough level anymore. I'd be the same way if I was them, so it's hard to criticize. But that's where Belichick is so good, it's almost like he has no emotion in the personnel decisions. If a guy can't play anymore in NE, he's gone, no matter what he's done in the past.
Donald Driver this year (and the number of snaps he played last year) was an obviuos situation where he was taking up a roster spot that should have gone to a guy they could develop. Clifton last year was the same thing. Woodson, Hawk, Peprah, Zombo, and a few others have been kept or paid beyond what they are worth.
Again, I would have been worse in terms of sentimentality. Of course, if it was someone like me at GM, we'd probably still have Favre around taking snaps.
Regarding the OL and the running game -- I'm not sure TT/MM know what good run-blocking linemen look and play like. The run game has never been a strength during this administration. They caught lightning in a bottle a couple times (Grant in 2007 and Starks during the end of 2010), but neither repeated their success. Yes, Grant followed up his stellar 2007 season (in which he rushed for 939 yards in 10 games) with two 1,200 yard seasons, but his YPC dropped from 5.1 in 2007 to 3.4 in 2008.
quote:Originally posted by LarseeBear:
Gee Chrissy says you need run blockers to run. Who da thunk?
And commitment? After MM saw everyone pinning their ears back to take off AR's head in the pass happy go long offense, MM adjusted with more runs to give some semblance of a balanced attack. More this year than others, imo, because the OL was so bad early on.
(She gets paid for that drivel?)
Good point, at least we get yours for free.
TT is the best. But over his tenure, IMO, his biggest boner was signing Saturday and not drafting a mauler.
The OL had no chance at cohesion with Saturday doing back flips on every play.
I really think we'd have had a chance at 15-1 again if that bozo hadn't lined up opening day. Home field advantage was 3-1 this weekend. And the loss went into overtime.
We're lucky AR came out of this season in one piece.
The OL had no chance at cohesion with Saturday doing back flips on every play.
I really think we'd have had a chance at 15-1 again if that bozo hadn't lined up opening day. Home field advantage was 3-1 this weekend. And the loss went into overtime.
We're lucky AR came out of this season in one piece.
JerMichael Finley. - Stays, too talented to let go at this point and will be playing for a contract next year.
Greg Jennings. - Door dent in butt. Would love back but likelihood minimal.
Donald Driver. - See ya
Jeff Saturday. - See ya
Ryan Grant. - See ya, but stay in shape in case of injury
Charles Woodson. - Re-structure and stay
AJ Hawk. - I hope you like Purple.
Frank Zombo. - Chum.
Erik Walden. - Maybe stays as backup. Maybe.
Brad Jones. - Stays as sub package guy and special teamer.
Dejuan Harris. - Stays as CoP back
Cedric Benson. - See ya.
James Starks - See ya.
Greg Jennings. - Door dent in butt. Would love back but likelihood minimal.
Donald Driver. - See ya
Jeff Saturday. - See ya
Ryan Grant. - See ya, but stay in shape in case of injury
Charles Woodson. - Re-structure and stay
AJ Hawk. - I hope you like Purple.
Frank Zombo. - Chum.
Erik Walden. - Maybe stays as backup. Maybe.
Brad Jones. - Stays as sub package guy and special teamer.
Dejuan Harris. - Stays as CoP back
Cedric Benson. - See ya.
James Starks - See ya.
After reading the comments on multiple posts and the JSO articles it is clear that this offseason will likely bring about quite a bit of change. It is really going to test the ability of TT. The reason for this is that the Packers are not in a rebuild mode, but more of a retooling mode. When you have a franchise QB like Rodgers who is playing like a future HOFer, you can't blow the whole thing up and start from scratch. In my opinion Capers can go, but only if TT thinks there is someone that can come in and do a much better job. I also believe that TT needs to move outside of his comfort zone and look for some free agents again like he did with Woodson and Pickett. The entire linebacking core (other than Mathews) can go, we need, as Woodson said, to get bigger and faster. Jennings goes because he is too expensive. Woodson is an interesting one, I would like to see him stay for one more year, but it has to be for a lot less money. The Starks experiment should be over. Finley I think stays because he is too young to get rid of yet especially if you are not keeping Jennings. In terms of running backs, non of them really wow me. My guess is they are all brought back to training camp and we'll see who makes it.
What of our Offensive coaches ?? Is our o line coach doing the job??
Are o linemen being coached up?? Can our recievers gain separation when
defenses jam ?? What are the credentials of our recievers coach ??
is play calling game & mgt up to snuff??
Are o linemen being coached up?? Can our recievers gain separation when
defenses jam ?? What are the credentials of our recievers coach ??
is play calling game & mgt up to snuff??
Id like to see stay:
Benson
Harris
Woodson(restructured)
the rest: see ya
redo AR, Jones, Cobb if appropriate. also Shields and EDS as mentioned. Let crabtree go
keep Hawk only at a reduced price.
keep Walden, Jones for depth. theyre not starters but cheap experienced guys
give Benson a shot in preseason. may provide a good combination with Harris. Big back, veteran combined with young, agile rb who's learning
Benson
Harris
Woodson(restructured)
the rest: see ya
redo AR, Jones, Cobb if appropriate. also Shields and EDS as mentioned. Let crabtree go
keep Hawk only at a reduced price.
keep Walden, Jones for depth. theyre not starters but cheap experienced guys
give Benson a shot in preseason. may provide a good combination with Harris. Big back, veteran combined with young, agile rb who's learning
I think the RB position is one of the biggest question marks heading into 2013. Barring a Starks-like disappearing act, Harris needs to have a prominent role in this offense. But even if his performance keeps up, I think his size limits him to more of a Sproles/Jacquizz Rogers role. Green was a 3rd round pick and is coming into his third year, so he will be here. Just not sure where he fits in the rotation.
I think a bruiser/hard-yard back like Benson or Starks would be the best compliment for Harris, but I don’t know that either of those is actually the guy. This might finally be the year they lose faith in Starks’ health, and I suppose Benson could fill that role if it’s not drafted. I’m guessing both come to camp, but only one is on the team Week 1. Grant is gone and Saine might get squeezed for space.
I’ll say we’re looking at Harris, Green, Kuhn and Starks/Benson/Draft pick for next near.
I think a bruiser/hard-yard back like Benson or Starks would be the best compliment for Harris, but I don’t know that either of those is actually the guy. This might finally be the year they lose faith in Starks’ health, and I suppose Benson could fill that role if it’s not drafted. I’m guessing both come to camp, but only one is on the team Week 1. Grant is gone and Saine might get squeezed for space.
I’ll say we’re looking at Harris, Green, Kuhn and Starks/Benson/Draft pick for next near.
quote:Originally posted by Sep:
DeJuan Harris deserves to be extended into next season. But so long as MM is the coach, the Packers will never have a good running game. Either he doesn't know how to run the ball or he just doesn't want to. Yes, he won a Super Bowl, but I think he got lucky by catching lightning in a bottle with James Starks (who never repeated his success) the end of 2010.
You make it easy when you defeat your own argument in the same paragraph. I guess Starks just grabbed the ball out of Rodgers hand and ran with it on his own volition. Smert.
JerMichael Finley. - Is Quarless healthy? If so, let him go. If not, keep him.
Greg Jennings. - Gone. Would consider a franchise tag, but frankly, I think its not gonna happen.
Donald Driver. - Gone. Should have been gone this year.
Jeff Saturday. - Gone.
Ryan Grant. - Gone.
Charles Woodson. - Restructure and significantly reduce cap hit or gone.
AJ Hawk. - Gone.
Frank Zombo. - Gone.
Erik Walden. - Stay.
Brad Jones. - Stay.
Dejuan Harris. - Stay.
Cedric Benson. - Gone. What's the point. Harris is better/younger.
Greg Jennings. - Gone. Would consider a franchise tag, but frankly, I think its not gonna happen.
Donald Driver. - Gone. Should have been gone this year.
Jeff Saturday. - Gone.
Ryan Grant. - Gone.
Charles Woodson. - Restructure and significantly reduce cap hit or gone.
AJ Hawk. - Gone.
Frank Zombo. - Gone.
Erik Walden. - Stay.
Brad Jones. - Stay.
Dejuan Harris. - Stay.
Cedric Benson. - Gone. What's the point. Harris is better/younger.
quote:Originally posted by WolfPack:
Id like to see stay:
Benson
Harris
Woodson(restructured)
the rest: see ya
redo AR, Jones, Cobb if appropriate. also Shields and EDS as mentioned. Let crabtree go
keep Hawk only at a reduced price.
keep Walden, Jones for depth. theyre not starters but cheap experienced guys
give Benson a shot in preseason. may provide a good combination with Harris. Big back, veteran combined with young, agile rb who's learning
I love how people are saying Hawk/Jones/Walden aren't starters, and we should keep them, but the minute an injury happens in the LB corp, and these guys are starters due to injury, there will be all sorts of crying of why are these guys playing, they suck?????
I'm not expecting it, but I won't be surprised to see a tag and trade with Jennings. It's a business and letting Jennings just flat out walk isn't in the best interest of the Packers. The Packers paid him plenty of money, they don't owe him anything. Cultivate some options, give Jennings a choice, etc. Miami has plenty of picks to part with.
Just heard Dan Patrick call out Hawk for being invisible on Saturday.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:quote:Originally posted by Sep:
DeJuan Harris deserves to be extended into next season. But so long as MM is the coach, the Packers will never have a good running game. Either he doesn't know how to run the ball or he just doesn't want to. Yes, he won a Super Bowl, but I think he got lucky by catching lightning in a bottle with James Starks (who never repeated his success) the end of 2010.
You make it easy when you defeat your own argument in the same paragraph. I guess Starks just grabbed the ball out of Rodgers hand and ran with it on his own volition. Smert.
Not sure what your point is. That Harris doesn't deserve to come back? Or that MM knows how to implement a running game because Starks had success at the end of 2010?
I'll address both.
1. Harris ran well, and whether or not it was a fluke or the proverbial lightning in a bottle, he earned the chance to come back next season.
2. Starks hasn't repeated his success of 2010. In fact, not until DuJuan Harris showed some flashes at this season's end has any Packers RB had much success since.
EDIT: And, Henry, thanks again for, as always, advancing the discussion with your insights.
The funny thing is that Henry shows up before games, and after games, during the season and during the off season. You OTOH posted a grand total of 9 times from Oct till yesterday and have posted your whiny brand of stupid 7 FRICKEN TIMES just today. In other words, STFU and go away (as keeping with the topic of this thread).
The Packers’ biggest issues were the undisciplined play of their outside linebackers, notably Erik Walden, and cornerback Tramon Williams’ unwillingness to fill against the run.
Another big play that led to a 49ers touchdown was Vernon Davis’ 44-yard catch over A.J. Hawk. That’s an obvious mismatch. Hawk had to expend so much effort in coverage he had nothing left to play the ball. But give him an A for effort. Williams, on the other hand, was in a trail position and simply jogged behind the play after Dezman Moses freed him by picking up the fullback in the flat.
These are two excerpts from the Cristl piece. I don't know where he is at with his contract but if he is at the end, let this dog go. Seems effort, courage and stupidity are all issues with this guy. Seems like a lifetime ago when we thought we had a shutdown corner for years in 2010.
Another big play that led to a 49ers touchdown was Vernon Davis’ 44-yard catch over A.J. Hawk. That’s an obvious mismatch. Hawk had to expend so much effort in coverage he had nothing left to play the ball. But give him an A for effort. Williams, on the other hand, was in a trail position and simply jogged behind the play after Dezman Moses freed him by picking up the fullback in the flat.
These are two excerpts from the Cristl piece. I don't know where he is at with his contract but if he is at the end, let this dog go. Seems effort, courage and stupidity are all issues with this guy. Seems like a lifetime ago when we thought we had a shutdown corner for years in 2010.
with adequate linebackers, Williams is an very good corner back.
Our corners were expected to make way to many tackles on running backs this year because our linebacker couldn't shed blocks/fill gaps/anticipate. Hawk did help some by dragging down running backs from behind 10 yards down field, otherwise it would have been even worse.
You see corner backs sticking their noses in supporting the run on SportsCenter, but any corner that has to tackle a running back with a full head of steam over and over in a game will start to look timid. That isn't justification for Tramon's play against AP, but there are a lot of teams that would feel blessed to have a guy like Williams. Including this Packer team which cannot possibly have to much depth at the C/safety position.
Our corners were expected to make way to many tackles on running backs this year because our linebacker couldn't shed blocks/fill gaps/anticipate. Hawk did help some by dragging down running backs from behind 10 yards down field, otherwise it would have been even worse.
You see corner backs sticking their noses in supporting the run on SportsCenter, but any corner that has to tackle a running back with a full head of steam over and over in a game will start to look timid. That isn't justification for Tramon's play against AP, but there are a lot of teams that would feel blessed to have a guy like Williams. Including this Packer team which cannot possibly have to much depth at the C/safety position.