Capers Defense

there aren't many players that play all 1000 and it's very rare to see a player in the front 7 play all 1000.

But that is true for all teams. Some good defenses even have great players miss games because they have to go to rehab, etc...

How many other teams have drafted so heavily in the defensive front seven?

We should have one of the best front sevens in the NFL.

Agreed.

The GBP offense gave up the ball 2x in week 1 while SFO did not turn it over. Over the last 4 games of the regular season the Packers D started getting turn-overs again.

Will Kaepernick be able to handle the ball in the cold? Rodgers has experience (just last Sunday) winging it in the cold. Does Kaepernick have small, average, or big hands for a QB?  They need to get a hit on him early in the cold.

How many other teams have drafted so heavily in the defensive front seven?

 

We should have one of the best front sevens in the NFL.

Not sure if the above post is an indictment of TT's drafting failure or Caper's coaching/scheme failure.

Is the argument that another coach would make those high draft picks perform better?  Mmmm...unconvinced.

Harrell was in GB for 2009 & 2010, Capers 1st and 2nd year - his two best as the Packers DC. Clearly, Capers needs Justin Harrell.

Almost any coach can field a more-than-competent defense if they have great players. But no team has an entire unit of great players. That's the essence of coaching: teaching players to be where they need to be and how best to do their jobs. That's where I feel Capers falls down. Why do we have guys not knowing where they should be at this point of the season? Everyone should be on the same page, and if not I first look to the coach. If he can't teach it, or if he chooses to put guys out there who have rocks for brains, or if he can't put guys -- despite their shortcomings -- into a place to succeed or at least cover up their faults, it's on him. And I don't think Capers has done a good job of this. 

I'd like to know how McCarthy grades the assistants for this season, especially Moss. A few years ago MM gave WM the Asst HC title so he wouldn't lose him, is that a good thing? Moss is also not a guy Capers brought in.

Capers (and Perry) cannot afford to have Jennings taking bad angles on run plays and getting confused / mis-communicating in pass defense.

+1

We always see this mis-communication on the field or players or a player like Mulumba going right instead of left allowing Forte to get a huge gain.

This is a common theme. 

I find it difficult to believe a guy like Lovie Smith or Ron Rivera or Todd Bowles wouldn't be getting more out of the players we have.

If you remember, Woodson mentioned something about our defense his last year on the team, then quickly zipped his lip. 

Something isn't right at 1265 with regards to our defense. We're going to see exactly what Dom is made of in this game. If a game time temperature of -10 can't help your defense, you need to go. The poor communication & players constantly out of position has got to stop & that is definitely on the coaches.

We always see this mis-communication on the field or players or a player like Mulumba going right instead of left allowing Forte to get a huge gain.

 

+1

Leroy Butler said for those wondering (that would be me) why a guy like Lattimore isn't seeing more of the field it's because he still doesn't understand assignments and where to line up. In week 15-17, Butler indicated that's nothing short of ridiculous.

That who is considered to be a smart player in Lattimore still doesn't know where the F to line up this late in the season to me is purely on coaching.

We can't sit here and claim Jennings is this stupid, Lattimore is an IDOT, McMillen is another dum dum,  Mulumba doesn't get it, and Richardson is slow to pick it up meanwhile Capers and his assistants are teaching everything right and making no errors.

If the scheme is this complicated, then you have a problem with the scheme or those teaching it.

Right on Boss!  Being in the right place will be the most important thing in this game. The cold will slow guys down and if you keep you assignment you will be able to make plays.

+2

This talent vs. coaching is a recurring discussion. Obviously it helps to have both. But drafting guys is always an inexact science and it falls upon the coordinator to maximize the talent he his given. Two things stand out to me:

1) If Capers's hands are tied by his talent, how do you explain the turnarounds by the Saints defense this year or the Bears offense? Neither of those teams signed/drafted world beating talent. They just massively upgraded their coordinator positions. Marc Trestman turned the Bears into a lethal offense. Rob Ryan took a team that had an awful defense and made them competitive. Sure, they benefited from some new additions to the team and guys getting better, but there's no doubt both those units benefited from the men leading them.

2) If coaches have a free pass until they have solid talent, then what's it take to replace some of these guys? I mean, why did the Packers even replace Bob Sanders in the first place? Or why did Wolf replace Infante with Holmgren? Neither of those guys had elite talent when they were replaced...yet clearly the team was better off with those moves. There's nothing wrong with being patient with a coach -- but at a certain point, you need to make a move even if the talent hasn't been fully restocked yet.

Agree with regards to the lack of or poor communications on the field. These are the back-breakers IMO. Caper's defense relies on a lot of scheming. Could it be that they are spending too much time trying to understand and execute his diabolical plans rather than getting proficient at the basics: tackling, good cover skills, etc?

Some context for your consideration...

Lovie Smith is known as a defensive HC, came up through the powerhouse Tampa defense and continued with Chicago. He had blue chip players, former HCs on his staff and a superb special teams on the bears.

They managed (4) excellent seasons on defense, ranking 1,3,3,4 in points allowed

They also managed (5) seasons of average performance ranking 14,21,16,16,13 in point allowed.

They are the Tampa 2 gurus, had Urlacher, Briggs, Tillman et al and they still fluctuated wildly from season to season and never won a Championship.

Teams go up and down each season, so I don't think fluctuating rankings is much of an indictment of the Tampa 2 scheme or Lovie's ability to coach it.

Next up - teams with high- powered offenses tend to give up lots of points on defense. The Packers D was "the worst defense EVER in 2011 !!!!- the same year they set the record for points scored. What a coincidence.

The Saints have hit their high-water mark for points given up in the last year

Denver scored more points than ever before in history AND they gave up more points than ever before in their history.

It seems to go hand in hand when offenses light up the scoreboard

You want a pinball offense with Rodgers at the helm ? Then maybe we have to accept that they're going to be attacked mercilessly by 16 teams striving to keep up.

The opposite of that is Lovie ball; playing for field position, kicking FGs and an occasional special teams score. Your defensive performance is a function of what your offense is doing and that's why running the ball well is so helpful to a D.

There are a million variables in how a defense performs, but I don't think you're going to finger it out without having some context in terms of other teams and scenarios around the league. Pitt/ Le Beau has done very well for a long time, but he's never had a pinball offense on the other side to contend with

My two cents is this: If you always start from perfection and work your way down, then the Packers are always going to disappoint you. If you start from what is possible, or reasonable, or on par with their peers -  I think it'll paint a different picture and maybe add to your enjoyment of the Mighty Green Bay Packers. I liked what EKB said- have a defense that ranks between 16 - 8 every season and we'd be in good shape with the current O

imo The answer is players -  not scheme or coaching

When playmakers are on the bench, defense suffers. Film at 11

DL playmaker = Jolly on the bench

LB playmaker = Matthews on the bench, Perry too

DB playmaker = Hayward on the bench

Jolly - a great reclamation project by the Packers org

Matthews -  a multi-pick trade up in the first

Hayward-  a trade up in the 2nd

3 great GM moves, 3 playmakers coached up, and unfortunately 3  injuries keeping them out.

I have no clue whether Capers is the guy or not, but I certainly give credence to the idea that a 1000 page defensive playbook doesn't have as much value when the IR is filled with playmakers and the youth is youthing it up on the field.

But the Packers were stopping the run earlier this season, the Packers did have a better rank on defense earlier this season.

What changed ?   

The Packers lost their best players ! And lo and behold... a team without its best players seems average. Stop the presses.

A 3-4 defense is designed around the OLBs making the plays.

Everything is set up for them be the playmakers.

But when a 3-4 team without both of its starting OLBs suffers....  the fans blame it on the coaching ?

For not turning Mulumba into Matthews or water into wine; they shall be subjected to a public stoning. If your expectation was that the defense would just keep rolling along without 3 of its best/key players...

There isn't a coach on the planet that can hide MD Jennings, Andy Mulumba, AJ Hawk, Mike Neal, Jarrett Bush and a snoozing Raji all on the same play

1 or 2 players are OK to hide; GB covered up Peprah and won. But there are simply too many holes to plug and even that guy dancing on the cracker can't make it work without players.

Go Packers

Here's another question I have:

If these schemes are so difficult for our own players to understand, how come they are so damn easy for opponents to figure out?

Remember in 2010 when Desmond Bishop completely surprised Mike Vick with a hard blitz at the start of the game? Or Caleb Hennie being fooled by the zone blitz and throwing the ball right into Raji's gut?

When was the last time you saw a QB truly surprised or confused by what GB was bringing? Happens very rarely. Instead, you see Josh McCown standing calmly pre-snap calling out every rusher that he knows is coming and then delivering a strike for a TD.

New Orleans went from the 32nd ranked defense in 2012 to the 4th ranked defense in 2013.  By bringing in a new DC.  

The only significant additions to the 2013 team were ROOKIE Kenny Vaccaro, Keenan Lewis, ROOKIE John Jenkins, and FA Parys Haralson.  However, the 2013 team also played the entire year without Jonathon Vilma and Will Smith, they also lost Jabari Greer mid way through.

Talent?

No home run free agents, losing Smith and Vilma.  I could argue easily that the 2013 defense was less talented than the 2012 defense.  Yet, they went from 32nd to 4th.  

Injuries?

No Smith and Vilma all year.  Greer, Harper, Bunkley, Vaccaro, and Jenkins all missed time.  Yet they went from 32nd to 4th.

Rookies?

Many would argue that one of NO's best players this year on D was rookie Kenny Vaccaro.  John Jenkins also played decently and started 5 games.   Yet they went from 32nd to 4th.

The fact that Rob Ryan can come in and basically turn the worst defense into a top 5 with no major FA additions, depending on a rookie Strong Safety, and some significant injuries; while some are still telling us that Dom Capers can't be expected to succeed with this talent and rookies is mindblowing.    Guys improved with the new scheme and one would assume, coaching.  A rookie SS did well, sure he was a first round pick, but first round picks don't assure success, right?   Team had a lot of injuries, they adjusted.  

If this was a one year deal, I'd not be arguing this way.  But, since 2010 this defense has  not been good.  This year it is very bad.  Something needs to change.  Other teams have made changes and seen a significant improvement without having to pay through the teeth for FAs that may/may not pan out.  

Dom Capers is a lovely man with lovely hair.  I don't think his schemes work with the roster he has, and since we can't completely retool the defense, either he needs to adjust to what he has, or we need to find a new DC with fresh ideas and ways to maximize the talent we do have.  Since we still can't function without Nick Collins, I'm not banking on Capers adjusting, which leaves us with one option.

All teams have injuries or players who miss games for other reasons.

I've posted this before but I saw it again last night, the year before Vince Lombardi came to GB, the Packers went 1-10-1.

There were 13 Pro Bowl, All Pro or HOF players on that team. Vince didn't complain about the talent level he had when he took over.

packerboi:

That's a lot of high picks. A lot of high talent to work with.

This statement is a head-scratcher for me.  Seems to assign talent level to draft position and overlooks a couple mediocre players as well as a huge number of lost player-games.

I get that when you have a dynamic offense, teams might be forced to be more aggressive on offence, but that should also result in a few more turnovers as well?  The defense also sucked when Rodgers was out and the offense was not as dynamic. 

I think for any defense, without an ILB who plays downhill, everything else starts to fall apart (similarly a safety who can both support the run and cover).   Name a top 10 defense that doesn't have a linebacker in the middle stopping things from happening? 

Lastly (yeah, right), Dom is the defensive coordinator of the greatest franchise in football, so I do expect him to come up with something, anything, that can challenge an opposing team regardless of the injury situation.  That doesn't seem to be happening. 

Rockin' Robin:

how do you explain the turnarounds by the Saints defense this year or the Bears offense? Neither of those teams signed/drafted world beating talent.

Alshin Jeffrey had a fantastic sophomore season at WR, realizing most even solid WR's make little impact their rookie season.

More than once, I heard some pundit laud the Bear's improvement on offensive line.  Right guard Kyle Long, 2013 1st round pick and right tackle Jordan Mills, a 2013 7th round selection.  So two rookies helping to make up a revamped offensive line.  (What a nice selection at 7th round.)

Seems to be pretty much improvement.

No, but he did improve it. He knew he needed a great defense so that is where he concentrated on player upgrades with veteran players.  Vince brought in Em Tunnell,  acquired Henry Jordan, then Willie Davis from Cleveland, and later Ron Kostelnik.  Jordan, Davis and Rhino were all key players for the '60s Championship runs.  Maybe it's time TT does a little of the same be it trades or FA.

He needs to do that not just to fill holes but to limit the number of rookies starting.  One or two may be fine if they are exceptional like Heyward or maybe even Hyde.  Any more than that, especially at OLB, and you're asking for trouble. 

Yep!  I agree!

The Saints defense plays very well in their home dome, not unlike the vikes

But when the Saints defense goes on the road, for some reason their amazing coaching turnaround has a hiccup. They lost @ the Pats and they lost @ the Seahawks giving up more than 30 points each time. They also gave up 27 @ St Louis so apparently their awesome coaches are only superb with the benefit of the Super Dome. I don't think that will work in GB

And interestingly enough Rob Ryan's defenses show the same pattern as Dom's-  a quick turnaround followed by a drop off. That's why Rob Ryan gets so many jobs but keeps few of them. His last 4 stops were 3 years, 2 years, 2 years, 2 years and now he's in NO. Doesn't seem like his turnarounds have much staying power

Was Rob Ryan without 3 of his his playmakers ? Not sure, but they did fall off once Vaccaro went down

Capers may or may not be the issue, I just haven't seen anybody take the time to really dive into it.

Some state that "players are out of position", yet on both of the killer TDs in the Philly game, GB had 2 players in position to make a play and they didn't- that's on the players not the coaches.

Riddle me this one: If we could wave a magic wand and get back a healthy Matthews, Hayward and Jolly- would that change your outlook on the 2013 playoffs ?  Of course it would

As for the oft repeated meme of " all teams have injuries", do some homework and show us which teams lost their best 2 players and still made the playoffs. Show me a 3-4 team without both starting OLBs that made the playoffs. Give me an example of a DC that lost 3 playmakers and still fielded a top- ranked unit

I'm always interested in learning more

I do not care how much blame actually belongs to Capers.  There needs to be a change period!  Where better to start than with the DC?  Now, I am known to be a flip-flopper when there are good reasons.  At this point, the only way I reverse my thinking on this is if the Packers make it it to the big dance and at least some of that success would have been due to the defense; otherwise, bye -bye Capers!!!!

Flip the team around a minute...

Bulaga, Finley, Cobb, and yes Rodgers were all down for large parts (if not the season).  Offense kept functioning.  Obviously not as well but it seemed pretty apparent the effort was there as a group and fill-ins were assignment sure.  This includes a rookie tackle, a tight end that hasn't played in over a year and a mix of wideouts filling in for Cobb. 

Bottom line, coaching factors heavily into that.  Was a noticeable difference than what has occurred with the defense and the challenges it has faced.

Good freakin point!

Interestingly, Brees plays like crap on the road, so you would expect that with the QB being less of a threat, the defense would play better.  

The difference is exactly what I was talking about, who comes in for those other 500 snaps when Matthews is out? Mediocrity. When Justin Smith takes a breather, Glen Dorsey comes in and there is minimal drop off in production. When Michael Bennett needs a break, Cliff Avril comes in and it's all good. When Brett Keisel is injured, Cam Heyward plays and there's no drop off. When Clay Matthews comes out then Andy Mulumba comes in and there is significant drop off. Doesn't matter if we have 7 first round picks in there, those guys are only playing 500-700 snaps each a season which leaves a lot of time where you need quality back ups. The times we get gashed badly are when there is some rookie or some mediocre back up in there.

The offense surely took a steep dive when Rodgers went out, scoring 13, 13, 26 and 10 points before they learned how to win without him.

Same coaches, but much different production without the best players.

That's all I am saying.

GB can certainly fire Capers, just wanna make sure that's actually the source of the "problems" on defense.

SF DC Vic Fangio is an experienced and talented DC, but he has P. Willis and N.Bowman and the Smith brothers.

Without them he's been fired 5 times since 2001.

Agree Satori on wanting to be sure moving in a different direction is the right call.  That is why I am excited to see what Capers has planned for this Sunday.  I think a good coach pushes his players a little extra in the post-season and gets more creative.

Digger, good coaching turns average players into starters and good ones into blue chippers.  The Seattle defense is littered with 5th, 6th and 7th round picks.  Dom needs to get more out of some of his guys. 

You don't say?  New Orleans on the road to two of the best teams in the NFL gave up more than 30 points.  Well then.  Clearly they are not worthy of that #4 ranking, and Dom Capers is now president of the United States.  Silly me.  

There is so much wrong in this paragraph I don't know where to begin.

First - Dom's defense's haven't shown a pattern of a quick turnaround followed by a drop off. Fact.  2,8,2 in Pitt. 30 in one year in MIA.  7, 2, 19, 11, 24 in GB.  There is no pattern.  But, say it enough, and maybe people will believe it.  

As for Ryan.  Well, here's his teams rankings.   31, 25, 18, 26, 24 in Oak.  21, 13 in Cle. 16,24 in Dallas.  Again, no pattern.  

Next Ryan's last 4 stops (and only in NFL as DC mind you) were 5 years in Oak, 2 years in Cle, 2 years in Dal, 1 year in NO.  I especially love the tenure of Ryan being a damning indictment of him and PROVING that his turnarounds have no staying power.

Dom's DC stops are 3 years, 2 years, 1 year, 5 years.  Rob Ryan 4 jobs - 10 years.  Dom Capers 4 jobs, 11 years.  

Well, if you aren't sure, then by all means assume!  Will Smith out all year.  Vilma out all year.  Greer, Bunkley, Harper, and Jenkins missed games.  

Fall off with out Vaccaro?  Points allowed in 14 games with Vaccaro - 19.1 pts/game  points allowed in 2 games without Vaccaro - 18.5 pts/game.  BUT I WANT IT TO BE TRUE!!!!

Anecdotal data doesn't prove anything.  We can play the "Well I remember a TD where there was miscommunication" all day.  Doesn't really prove much of anything.

Not in the least.  This implication that Casey Freaking Hayward is the lynchpin to this defense and yet another reason why Capers should not be held accountable is laughable.  

Hayward played in 3 games this year.  We gave up 31, 27, 27.   Without Hayward we gave up 28 points a game.  With Hayward we gave up 28.3.  He made no impact on this defense.  We were promised "oh just want til Burnett and Hayward are back".  Didn't matter.  Jolly played all 3 of those games, Matthews played the last 27 pt game. 

You can keep blaming injuries all you want.  Every team has them.  Seattle played without Browner, Harvin, and Rice for most of the year.   SF played without Aldon Smith and missed Willis for 2 games.  KC missed Hali, Houston, and Flowers at points.  The example Saints played all year without Vilma and Smith.  

Healthy, unhealthy, rookies, veterans, home, away, Hayward, Burnett, Collins, it doesn't matter.  Dom Capers has produced bad defenses the last 3 years.   

Now see, that's the kind of work we need more of around here

Thanks CA, greatly appreciated.

And you forgot to mention that this is the first year of the 3-4 in NO and they haven't had the time to draft all the right personnel

And somehow this eluded both of us:

While the Saints are 4th in overall D, they allow 4.6 yards per carry on the ground, which is 28th in the NFL....

The other thing that favors a first year DC and new scheme is the element of surprise or the unknown.  Sure Ryan has coached his 3-4 before and the players have played D before but those two elements together make something new.  Let's see how well NO's D does next year when everyone has 16 games of tendencies to identify and attack.

The Packers have a Superbowl quailty offence. It has a terrible defence, how bady and why can be argued. The question for the Packers brain trust is do they make changes.

If they see no need for change then fine everything stays the same. If they feel change is   needed  then  they can replace players, replace assistant coaches, or replace Capers.

Even if the Packers think Capers is a good coach the simplest and most do able thing is to replace him. Maybe a new vioce can acheive better results.

I suspect Dom will be either let go after the season or an assistant will be given more  authority  to "help" Dom.

No matter what the Packers do I do not think they want to make large changes in their defensive scheme, that leads me to think any changing to the coaching staff  will be in the form of an  internal promotion.

Maybe the players aren't putting in the work, and are trying to skate by?  But I guess that's the coaches fault, that players aren't studying assignments at night?  We have to remind ourselves that not everyone is professional and works 100% of the time when you are 23-27 years old and puts in extra time if they don't understand a concept, etc.    

Put it in context, they brought in a new DC, who has had success, and have had injuries, but look at their schedule as well.  They were playing a last place schedule.  They had 6 games against the Bucs, Falcons, Jets and Bills, do you think that has anything to do with their ranking?  Playing Glennon, a beat up Falcons team, Smith and Manuel?      http://www.neworleanssaints.co...season-schedule.html

And they play a 2nd place schedule.