Clayton says Packers are initial losers

Dumb.

What insight

They drafted two very good linebackers and also addressed OL and WR early in the draft.

TT sure is an idot.

I totally agree with Clayton. Trading down for Jennings when they could have taken Jackson has me scratching my head. Neither guy was going to replace Walker, but Jackson had the chance to make the most immediate impact.

I firmly believe you cannot grade a draft until 3 years at least, but it bugs me that TT continuously traded down and down. I think the last trade, he didn't even get comparable value according to the point chart.

I disagree about the JW thing though, most informed views on this board thought they would never get more than one #2 for JW.

when has a wco receiver had an impact as a rookie

quote:

Originally posted by GratefulPack:
I totally agree with Clayton. Trading down for Jennings when they could have taken Jackson has me scratching my head. Neither guy was going to replace Walker, but Jackson had the chance to make the most immediate impact.

I firmly believe you cannot grade a draft until 3 years at least, but it bugs me that TT continuously traded down and down. I think the last trade, he didn't even get comparable value according to the point chart.

I disagree about the JW thing though, most informed views on this board thought they would never get more than one #2 for JW.

Let me see,,, Stay put Draft Jackson....Or Trade it and Take Jennings and Hodge???

No Brainer in my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by the-icon:
when has a wco receiver had an impact as a rookie

Obviously you were sleeping at the end of the 95 season and playoffs when Antonio Freeman's catches were for first downs on every other play.

Also, when I was in my truck running back from a boat dealer Clayton said he even thought the Packers were getting both #'2 from the Donkeys and said this was a more fair trade in getting a proven commodity in Walker. I still don't buy this ACL BS. Didn't Jerry Rice come back from a worse or the same injury at like 35?

well in the regular season Freeman had 8 catches. My point is it takes awhile to develop. Chad Jackson would have struggled his first two years just like Walker.

Jerry Rice - suffered fractured patella.

quote:

Originally posted by GratefulPack:
I totally agree with Clayton. Trading down for Jennings when they could have taken Jackson has me scratching my head. Neither guy was going to replace Walker, but Jackson had the chance to make the most immediate impact.

I firmly believe you cannot grade a draft until 3 years at least, but it bugs me that TT continuously traded down and down. I think the last trade, he didn't even get comparable value according to the point chart.

I disagree about the JW thing though, most informed views on this board thought they would never get more than one #2 for JW.

Wrong! In addition to straight line speed the most important drill is the 3-cone time. This is the best indication of seperation the receiver will get in and out of breaks. Jennings was #2 in the whole draft. Brandon Williams beat him by 1/100 of a second. I think Jennings will be similar to Driver.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:

quote:

Originally posted by the-icon:
when has a wco receiver had an impact as a rookie

Obviously you were sleeping at the end of the 95 season and playoffs when Antonio Freeman's catches were for first downs on every other play.

Jennings is in the exact same mold as Freeman. Murphy started contributing right away last year before he was hurt.

I just don't get why people think Jackson is such a sure fire prospect. He had nice combine numbers, that's what pushed him up the charts. Big deal. Jennings is a proven baller.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:
Also, when I was in my truck running back from a boat dealer Clayton said he even thought the Packers were getting both #'2 from the Donkeys and said this was a more fair trade in getting a proven commodity in Walker. I still don't buy this ACL BS. Didn't Jerry Rice come back from a worse or the same injury at like 35?

A guy that would've walked next year for nothing. I'll take the second that was parlayed into more 2nd and 3rd rounders addressing O-line, WR and LB.

The Great Gazoo strikes again...

Jackson was the guy everyone had heard of. Sort of like last year when people were shouting for us to draft Antaj Hawthorne or whoever from like the 2nd round on.

I have no idea whether Jennings will be better, but you can't say Jackson would have made a more "immediate" impact. If anything he's considered more of a project, having played at Florida and not in a pro-style offense.

I like Clayton, I don't have a problem with his opinion. I just don't see how anyone can say we could have gotten more than we did. We traded him for the 37th overall pick at the last possible minute. Hanging onto him any longer we'd have gotten less, not more, or not traded him at all. (Which I understand some would have preferred.) I'll take the guys we got with the 2nd and 3rd we ended up with and take my chances. At least those guys will still be here in 2007.

Henry....love the avatar should have known


I love our draft "on paper" so far.

I was "watching" the draft on a computer through NFL.COM I first thought it showed Calhoun drafted by us but it was a pick before. If we somehow could have gotten Calhoun and Williams....OMG what a day it would have been.

I love the Tradedown Ted philosophy. We need a bunch of players and it appears we got a damn good start at that yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
I have no idea whether Jennings will be better, but you can't say Jackson would have made a more "immediate" impact. If anything he's considered more of a project, having played at Florida and not in a pro-style offense.

This irks me. Spurrier and the FnG offense is LONG GONE. Jackson went over the middle a lot this year. That's one of the reasons I like him. News England always takes those workout-only guys, don't they. They traded UP for him. The combine numbers made him a possible high first, but it's not like he's Jabbar Gaffney or any of the guys who only played in the FnG.

More picks is not necessarily a bad thing, but I really hope Ted didn't get too much in "ego" mode and traqde too much quality for quantity. We'll find out more in an hour or so.

Well this guy thinks the Pack did awfully darn good:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AoPMTdv4SSdLGqQZC...&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

For those who believe the Packers did not get enough for Walker put yourselves in the position of a GM from another team, you know these things about Walker to be true:

1. He was a holdout throughout the off-season and pre-season in 2005.

2. He has continued to demand a trade, not even asking any longer for a re-done contract.

3. He suffered a season ending injury last year.

4. He will be a free agent at the end of this year.

5. He has had ONE, count em, one Pro Bowl season and as have a whole bunch of WRs that have played with Favre.

So all of you that believe TT got fleeced, tell me what exactly you would have given up for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
I have no idea whether Jennings will be better, but you can't say Jackson would have made a more "immediate" impact. If anything he's considered more of a project, having played at Florida and not in a pro-style offense.

This irks me. Spurrier and the FnG offense is LONG GONE.

Compared to Urban Meyer's offense, Spurrier's offense is positively pro like. QB in shotgun, 4WRs...

10 yards per catch is not exciting. Tells me he lacks RAC. Under Spurrier's(I know Spurrier was gone by then, but they continued to run his system) offense he averaged 22 yards per catch.

quote:

Originally posted by Herschel:

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
I have no idea whether Jennings will be better, but you can't say Jackson would have made a more "immediate" impact. If anything he's considered more of a project, having played at Florida and not in a pro-style offense.

This irks me. Spurrier and the FnG offense is LONG GONE. Jackson went over the middle a lot this year. That's one of the reasons I like him. News England always takes those workout-only guys, don't they. They traded UP for him. The combine numbers made him a possible high first, but it's not like he's Jabbar Gaffney or any of the guys who only played in the FnG.

More picks is not necessarily a bad thing, but I really hope Ted didn't get too much in "ego" mode and traqde too much quality for quantity. We'll find out more in an hour or so.

First off, what is "ego" mode? Second, this "quality" vs. "quantity" stuff is bogus. Nobody has any clue as to who and how well each player will succeed. Urban Meyer sure the hell isn't running a NFL style offense here. Will the Jackson kid be a decent receiver? Sure, entirely possible. Will Jennings be a decent receiver? Sure, entirely possible. They traded down 10 spots, they didn't drop out of the round.

quote:

Originally posted by Henry:

quote:

Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:

quote:

Originally posted by the-icon:
when has a wco receiver had an impact as a rookie

Obviously you were sleeping at the end of the 95 season and playoffs when Antonio Freeman's catches were for first downs on every other play.

Jennings is in the exact same mold as Freeman. Murphy started contributing right away last year before he was hurt.

I just don't get why people think Jackson is such a sure fire prospect. He had nice combine numbers, that's what pushed him up the charts. Big deal. Jennings is a proven baller.

Jackson is a flashy name who played for a high profile team. He is not a sure fire prospect. How many other teams passed on Jackson before he was taken??? They thought the same thing about him.

It's just so stupid and pointless to "grade" the draft when day 2 isn't even over yet.

Plus none of us have seen these guys play on a PROFESSIONAL football field yet.

Clayton is saying this stuff as if the season starts next week.

I want to see Abdul Hodge chase Clayton around the ESPN office and clothesline him.

On one of the draft Chad we got into Greg Jennings:

Packdog: Where do you have WR Greg Jennings going....is he rising ???
2006-04-19 17:58:41.0
packerdraft: Robinson's a RB/WR tweener to me.
2006-04-19 17:59:00.0
iowacheese: He made alot of plays at Penn State
2006-04-19 17:59:03.0
Benzene: What are the chances of GB being able to trade down a few spots in the first? Would they even want to?
2006-04-19 17:59:07.0
packerdraft: Jennings isn't a riser...scouts I've talked to had him as a first-day guy a long time ago. He's a late 3rd/early 4th guy to me.
2006-04-19 17:59:11.0
packerjack: What do you think of Reggie McNeal?
2006-04-19 17:59:35.0
iowacheese: Hagen Arizona State....will he be a packer
2006-04-19 17:59:43.0
packerdraft: That's true, iowa, but a lot of very good college players don't do diddly in the NFL.
2006-04-19 18:00:10.0
packerdraft: McNeal's an interesting developmental prospect. Someone will take a chance on him a la QUincy Carter, although probably not as early.
2006-04-19 18:00:24.0
packerdraft: Hagan could be a Packer if he lasts until round 3.
2006-04-19 18:00:33.0
packerdraft: And I'd be just fine with that.
2006-04-19 18:00:39.0
iowacheese: yep
2006-04-19 18:00:41.0
packerdraft: I worry about his consistency.
2006-04-19 18:00:43.0
Packdog: Would you rather have Jennings or Brandon Williams ??
2006-04-19 18:00:53.0
packerjack: I worry about Haggan's hands
2006-04-19 18:00:54.0
packerdraft: Jennings.
2006-04-19 18:00:56.0
Johnny Z: Greg Jennings is a perfect fit for the WCO. He's a top-5 WR.
2006-04-19 18:01:12.0
packerdraft: That's not saying a whole lot in this draft, Z.



There is nothing about Jennings that says he cannot be a starting NFL WR. Here are the comments on JS Online of NFL scouts:


b. GREG JENNINGS, WR, W. Michigan

AFC scout: "He catches the ball very well. He's very physical once he gets the ball in his hands. And he can run."

NFC scout: "I think he's the second-best receiver in the draft."

AFC scout: "Fluid. Very good hands. Got some return ability. I didn't like him coming off '04 but he really picked it up in '05. He'll be a good No. 3 receiver. Adequate inside."

AFC scout: "He never caught a long ball. I don't know if he caught more than one ball more than 10 yards down the field. But he can run with the ball. He has decent size. I got him mid-second day."

Savage: "I like him. He's been hidden. He's a little bit of a small-schoolish guy. In an overall weak group of wideouts, to me he stands out."

Jerry Hardaway, Arizona: "He's a down the line guy for me. A lot of production in that arena but he doesn't match up with the big-school guys."

AFC scout: "I love him. He has great hands, great run after the catch. Not a real big guy and didn't play at a big school. He's a sleeper guy. He will be an unbelievable pro. There's something about him. He's got the 'it' quality. He acts like a pro and plays hard. He dominated that level."

quote:

Originally posted by R MaN:
Clayton: Packers 'losers'

In his initial reaction of winners and losers, ESPN.com's John Clayton put the Packers in his list of losers.

Clayton's reasoning: "They didn't get great value for Javon Walker, only getting a second-round choice instead of two seconds, which they were demanding Friday. While A.J. Hawk was a great choice to help the defense, the Packers didn't do much to help Brett Favre. They didn't get tight end Vernon Davis, but that's OK. Hawk rated higher on most draft boards than Davis. The Packers had a decent second-round for the future in getting tackle Daryn Colledge and wide receiver Greg Jennings, who might take some time to make impact. But this is Favre's last year, and he is committed to making the best out of the season. As it has been the entire offseason, the Packers haven't seized the moment."

Does this guy have any sort of a clue?

I like Clayton, but he is the one that doesn't get it.

Walker - TT, I read somewhere, touched base with the guy and it didn't fly. So we got rid of a locker room cancer, a guy coming off a major injury, a guy that had one year left on his contract. A guy that perhaps would have come back for the remaining six games and that was it. We got a very high two for him and then dealt that. McCarthy doesn't need the headache, the distraction, of an unhappy camper.

Hawk - Favre is no factor to TT - he is building with defense. It's not about providing Favre with weapons for his last season. It's about building a solid foundation and winning with defense and a running game. If anything, he's building with Rodgers in mind, not Favre. It's not about "seizing the moment" as Clayton wrote. When you're 4-12 and have gutted the roster, there is no seizing the moment. You build.

Jennings - So most of us haven't heard of the guy. Since when does name recognition translate to success in the NFL. Let the guys that scout do their jobs - not how many times we fans have seen a Florida receiver on television rather than Eastern Michigan State Polytech Trade School.

I'm not a TT fan but I could change my mind after this weekend. From all accounts, the players drafted are intelligent, dedicated football players. Read various bios on these guys and see how many times the phrases "smart football player", "loves the game", "hard-working, high-effort", "tough and a team leader" pop up. It's clear to me what TT is doing - surrounding himself with quality guys with which to build a solid foundation so that he can win with defense and the ground game.

Look what TT has done with the OL. With few exceptions, he has collected guys that can play multiple positions. Look at the defense, he's building up the middle with a NT, two LBs and a saftey. I have blasted TT as much as anyone has, but I think the light bulb just went off with me on what he's doing. No more Cletidus Hunts. No more malcontents. Tough, smart guys that want to play and appreciate the game. Team leaders, high-character guys. Just plain, old football players.

At least that's my take on it, IMHO and for what it's worth.

muddysboy makes a good point and one I've wanted to bring out.

These guys we drafted are football players. Maybe they don't have the flashy combine numbers but they all know how to play the game and from everything we've seen out of them so far, they play the game well.

AJ Hawk, Greg Jennings and Abdul Hodge are football players. We should be just fine. I know the Bear/Vike/Lion fans aren't going to be happy playing our defense.

Good post Mud. I agree 100%

At the very least it seems the players we drafted will set the level of competition for spots to a very high mark. Even if they don't all pan out each one seems to be highly motivated and will bring out the best in whoever is competing with them. Seems lately there's been too many athletic loafing projects on the roster. Packer attitude got a whole new look starting yesterday. I'm liking it.

Just my humble opinion but the only thing more worthless than 5,000 mock drafts is grading drafts on Saturday night on draft weekend. I say the draft cant be graded until after the season.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Z:
Jerry Rice - suffered fractured patella.

That's correct. Many published studies in the field of orthopedics (which I work in) show that the strength of the patella is greatly reduced because of the disuse and immobilization associated with ACL reconstruction and recovery. In an average person, the patella is not a full strenth for up to 18-24 months after the injury. The ACL itself is fairly strong fairly soon after the injury, it's the bone structures associated with the new that have to be strenthened and that takes time. I can tell you that orthopedic surgeons would have predicted the exact injury Rice suffered from coming back too early. Walker will probably not be at full strength until December or January. Because he is a well conditioned athlete he may recover sooner, but there is still considerable risk involved if he starts playing full tilt in September/October. And I would be worried about the affect and risk on a player who depends on going up and fighting for jump balls and coming down in an awkward position very often.

Robert Brooks was never the same after his ACL reconstruction, neither was Craig Newsome. QBs and lineman can recover from this type of injury with fewer long term affects because of the nature of their positions. I think it will be very possible that Walker will still be a solid pro, along the lines of Keyshawn Johnson, because he'll probably lose a step or two.

I think the Packers did very well to get a high second round pick for Walker. Minnesota got a 2nd rounder for a franchise QB coming off an ACL injury. Last year's NFL MVP (Alexander) and another franchise running back (James) were available for anyone offering a #1 pick and no one would pay that for them.

The argument over whether Walker and McKenzie forcing their way out of town will make Green Bay a less desirable place to play is also up for debate. After Terrell Owens' situation and the subsequent rules changes in the collective bargaining agreement prevent suspending players the way the Eagles did, it doesn't matter what team you play for. If you want more money and you want to be a pain in the neck about it, you can force your way off of any team. Eli Manning didn't want to play in San Diego. Terrell Owens didn't want to play in San Francisco. John Abraham was "disrespected" the Jets. I don't think Green Bay will be unique in that regard. Nine times out of ten (and maybe 99 times out of 100) it's always about the money. Gilbert Brown in 1997 was an exception. If Thompson would have given Walker a fat contract extension, Walker would have been telling people how he loved the small town atmosphere of Green Bay. If they'd have doubled McKenzie's contract, he'd be doing promos for the Applebees in Green Bay. If they'd have given Longwell 2.5 million a year, he'd be talking about tradition and wanting to play with one team his whole career.

Great post MP. Not sure I agree with every single point, but very well put together. Thanks.

I figure TT wanted Walker gone... the longer he waited, the less he was going to get. Denver knew this....

The part everyone is forgetting is that we also traded Walker's step father to denver too. Just because Walker is traded to another team, that doesn't solve Step Dad's problem. Step Dad wants the cash.

I can't wait until Step dad starts blabbing, and Walker Holds out on Denver for a new contract.

Tim

I thought the donkeys just gave him a new 6 year contract. I haven't heard the details, but it was reported late last night or early this morning. I don't have a link, but it was on the ESPN ticker thingy dingy...although, I guess with ESPN's track record of reporting the news lately, maybe it's just a rumor.

quote:

Originally posted by R MaN:
Clayton: Packers 'losers'

In his initial reaction of winners and losers, ESPN.com's John Clayton put the Packers in his list of losers.

Clayton's reasoning: "They didn't get great value for Javon Walker, only getting a second-round choice instead of two seconds, which they were demanding Friday. While A.J. Hawk was a great choice to help the defense, the Packers didn't do much to help Brett Favre. They didn't get tight end Vernon Davis, but that's OK. Hawk rated higher on most draft boards than Davis. The Packers had a decent second-round for the future in getting tackle Daryn Colledge and wide receiver Greg Jennings, who might take some time to make impact. But this is Favre's last year, and he is committed to making the best out of the season. As it has been the entire offseason, the Packers haven't seized the moment."

Does this guy have any sort of a clue?

No, Clayton does not have a clue here. His whole premise here is that the Packers should have drafted for Brett Favre. That would have absolutely been the wrong thing to do. As he said, they drafted for the future in the second, which is exactly what the Packers needed to do. The scouts that McGinn talks to had Colledge as the #2 guard. The Packers need a guard to keep Favre off his ass and to help make the offense go.

Yes, Walker got his new contract.

Denver would not have given up a high pick without having him locked up beyond next season.

quote:

Originally posted by R MaN:
Clayton's reasoning: "They didn't get great value for Javon Walker, only getting a second-round choice instead of two seconds, which they were demanding Friday.

...the Packers didn't do much to help Brett Favre...But this is Favre's last year, and he is committed to making the best out of the season. As it has been the entire offseason, the Packers haven't seized the moment."

With Walker, simply because we wanted 2 second rounders doesn't mean it will happen. Stupid reasoning. As I stated before, I'm a little surprised we even got 1 second rounder. I'd rather see JW rot in Green Bay, but I'm O.K. with what we got. The Vikes got less for Culpepper.

As for Favre, I would hope we didn't draft for his needs. BTW, who says it's his last year? Initial reports said one more, but after MM talked with Brett they both seemed cool with the idea of leaving it up in the air for another season or two. Depended on how the team did in 2006.

My criticism:

The guys we got are rated where we picked them. 2nd rounders. The guys we could have had at picks 36/37 were rated by many experts and scouts as mid 1st rounders.

We got:
Colledge (rated where he was taken)
Jennings (rated where he was taken)

We could have had without trading down:
Winston Justice - Until stories about his soliciting a prostitute really brought up character questions, his draft projections were no worse than mid-1st round and #8 in the draft by a few earlier mocks I've seen.. This guy was rated by a few scouts as better than D'Brickashaw Ferguson. He was ready to start at tackle right now and will be the steal of the draft for the Eagles.

Chad Jackson - Rated by many experts as the top WR in the draft and was predicted in most mock drafts to go between picks 20-25. Amazing we had a shot at the guy but Thompson blew it. If we're going to trade Walker, we should get someone like this guy at the pick we got.

Bottom line is that Thompson screwed up. He had two first round rated talents at picks 36/37 but didn't stop to see that, he quickly did the deal he set up ahead of time before he even looked at who was on the board! Big mistake and he will regret it.

tlc

Whatever tlc, Collins was rated in the 5th round and we took him in the 2nd.

I say stick the ratings where the sun don't shine.

quote:

Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
Bottom line is that Thompson screwed up. He had two first round rated talents at picks 36/37 but didn't stop to see that, he quickly did the deal he set up ahead of time before he even looked at who was on the board! Big mistake and he will regret it.

I would have liked to see us draft Jackson, but we didn't. I know nothing about Jennings.

Why on earth would you say "TT didn't stop to see that" or made a deal before looking who was on the board? You simply don't know that. Just sour grapes TT didn't follow your "insight".

quote:

Originally posted by missingU92:

quote:

Originally posted by thelittlecheese:
Bottom line is that Thompson screwed up. He had two first round rated talents at picks 36/37 but didn't stop to see that, he quickly did the deal he set up ahead of time before he even looked at who was on the board! Big mistake and he will regret it.

I would have liked to see us draft Jackson, but we didn't. I know nothing about Jennings.

Why on earth would you say "TT didn't stop to see that" or made a deal before looking who was on the board? You simply don't know that. Just sour grapes TT didn't follow your "insight".

Why do I say that? Well, within a matter of a few minutes the deals were done. I really don't think Thompson stopped to look at WHO was still on the board. Things just happened so fast.

tlc

TLC

quote:

Amazing we had a shot at the guy but Thompson blew it.

ooooh TT didn't want your guy so he didn't draft him. How sad. Maybe if you write TT a nice letter explaining your views he can make a trade for your guy