Clemenza approved "What's wrong/right with this organization?"

ilcuqui posted:

Henry posted:

Here's another interesting thought that came to mind.  We talk about franchise QBs but how rare are coaches that actually drive a team's success with almost any personnel?  Lombardi, Belichek, I guess Walsh.  That's a crazy rarity in this league.  

Joe Jackson Gibbs. His first time around. Won SB's with Joe Theismann, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien at QB  

Didn't hurt that he had a now HoF GM (Bobby Beathard) and two of the greatest assistant coaches in league history (Richie Petibone at DC and Joe Bugel for the OL). I thought Gibbs running the offense (and he innovated quite a bit) and Petibone the defense was the best such combo until Holmgren and Fritz Shurmur. Damn but Fritz was a great DC. 

Fritz is beloved for what he did with the Packers, but I don't think he was a HOF defensive coordinator. He was the coordinator of some pretty lousy defenses during his career too. 

https://www.pro-football-refer.../coaches/ShurFr0.htm

His defenses in Green Bay had what was probably the best defensive line in Packer history and one of the best in NFL history. Reggie White (198), Sean Jones (113), and Santana Dotson (49) all could rush the passer. White is the GOAT, Sean Jones was an outstanding pass rusher, and Dotson was a premier interior pass rusher. The other DL was Gilbert Brown. You couldn't run on that line and you didn't need to blitz to generate pressure. That type of DL is the reason the NY Giants won two Super Bowls with Coughlin. A great DL covers up a lot of other things. You add that DL to the fact that they had a should-be-HOFer in Butler at SS, Eugene Robinson at FS with 57 career interceptions, and a trio of young CBs that were all good (pre-injury Craig Newsome, Doug Evans, and Tyrone Williams). Wayne Simmons as the OLB who beat the crap out of opposing TEs and another OLB that could run with most RBs (Brian Williams). George Koonce was a better than average MLB. 

The defense was still good in 1997, but they lost Sean Jones, George Koonce, and Craig Newsome and that was the difference between dominant and having the Broncos put up 31 in the Super Bowl (thanks Gabe Wilkins)

That defense was just loaded. Fritz didn't screw it up, but a lot of coaches look good with that level of talent. 

Blair Kiel posted:

..until that interception.

One of my favorite non-Packer plays of all time. 

I'm curious how the draft works out. Gutekunst took two corners with skill sets that seem counter to what the Packers supposedly want to run and spammed the wide receiver position with three guys each with a huge question mark in their skill sets. Part of what hurt TT and Capers seemed to be TT grabbed guys who couldn't do what Capers wanted them to and then Caper's couldn't adjust the scheme enough to get productivity out of those guys. 

That's some organizational dysfunction. 

Tdog posted:

Don Julio 70 Añejo Claro neat, please.

Olmeca Altos Plata , $22.99 at Hy-Vee

This **** is good

We'll see if the coaches can make the players better. Good position coaches should be able to help guys with holes in their game improve their skills, and a good DC finds ways to make the most of what he's got. Capers "did what he did" and even without the athletes to carry out the scheme, he still tried to force it. I hope Petts analyzes what he's got, then figures out a way to put it all together and scheme to minimize the shortcomings and maximize the strengths.

MichiganPacker2 posted:

I'm not sure how great Montana would have been without Walsh. The West Coast offense that Walsh developed was based on specific numbers of steps for both the QBs and the WRs. 

Those 49er teams are as marked by the greatness of Montana in the clutch as they were top 5 defenses. 

Blair Kiel posted:

ChilliJon posted:

Bill B. told Malcom Butler to park his ass on the bench in a SB to prove Tom wasn’t enough to beat a backup after Brady convinced Kraft to ship Jimmy G to the west coast. 

Oh schyt.

Next it's gonna be pictures from the movie set that they staged the moon landings from. 

There's a nice conspiracy theory video on youtube about BB throwing the Super Bowl to spite Brady.  It's actually pretty well thought out for what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rWZIGS10TU

Does it involve crisis actors?

Blair Kiel posted:

ChilliJon posted:

Bill B. told Malcom Butler to park his ass on the bench in a SB to prove Tom wasn’t enough to beat a backup after Brady convinced Kraft to ship Jimmy G to the west coast. 

Oh schyt.

Next it's gonna be pictures from the movie set that they staged the moon landings from. 

Capricorn One (what's in your wallet?) was about a faked Mars landing, not a moon landing.

vitaflo posted:

There's a nice conspiracy theory video on youtube about BB throwing the Super Bowl to spite Brady.  It's actually pretty well thought out for what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rWZIGS10TU

and there are folks that eat conspiracy theories up like crazy.  

"It makes sense that one of the best coaches and competitors in the game would throw a game out of spite like a 14 year old girl, I'm going to go with that theory:"

ammo posted:

Henry posted:

Here's another interesting thought that came to mind.  We talk about franchise QBs but how rare are coaches that actually drive a team's success with almost any personnel?  Lombardi, Belichek, I guess Walsh.  That's a crazy rarity in this league.  

I think a guy named Starr had a lot to do with Lombardi's success.  As well as Bob, Fuzzy, Jerry and Forrest.  And he won 1 year without Taylor and Hornung,  And almost the same 11 on D.  So to say Lombardi won with almost  any personnel is not quite true. 

So Lombardi had no effect on their career development of guys already on the team or that he drafted?  The Packers weren't exactly tearing it up before Vince came to town so my statement is absolutely true.  Vince controlled the organization from top to bottom and it showed.  

1. Bart Starr, 17th round, No. 200 overall, 1956: There’s no better story in NFL history than the one about the soft-spoken quarterback from Alabama who was buried on the depth chart until Vince Lombardi arrived in Green Bay and recognized his championship qualities. There have been plenty of QBs with stronger arms and greater mobility, but when it comes to reading a defense, calling a game and leading a team, none was better. Five NFL titles in seven years says it all.

5. Paul Hornung, first round, No. 1 overall, 1957: The Golden Boy played several positions at Notre Dame, didn’t have fantastic speed or quickness and probably wouldn't get drafted in the first round today. But it’s hard to imagine the Packers winning all those championships in the ‘60s without him. Lombardi built the Packer sweep around Hornung and the rest is history.

Herschel posted:

I'm curious how the draft works out. Gutekunst took two corners with skill sets that seem counter to what the Packers supposedly want to run and spammed the wide receiver position with three guys each with a huge question mark in their skill sets. Part of what hurt TT and Capers seemed to be TT grabbed guys who couldn't do what Capers wanted them to and then Caper's couldn't adjust the scheme enough to get productivity out of those guys. 

That's some organizational dysfunction. 

THIS https://bleacherreport.com/art...n-faze-davante-adams

is what’s right with this organization. 

Too much is made about the head coach. It’s the players that count.

Interesting, from the article:

"Aaron getting hurt exposed a lot," Adams says. "Not taking away anything from Brett [Hundley], but any time you go from Aaron to any backup quarterback, it's going to be a huge drop-off. … Brett really cared and he really wanted to get better, which is tough, because you get thrown into the fire out of nowhere. He wasn't really prepared for it.

how, after three years in the system, he wasn't COMPLETELY prepared to take advantage of an opportunity....   well, that tells me all I'd ever need to know, and I already determined last season he ain't cut out to be an NFL QB.

but please do go ahead and prove me wrong, slowboat hundley.

Ok I have to agree with Adams on this.  I am not entirely defending Hundley (I thought he sucked) but he was basically an untested rookie last year.   If you are behind Aaron (and it is typical for all NFL teams) is that you get very limited reps in practice.  Even if you get practice reps  as the 2nd or 3rd string guy in practive you aren't going to get better unless you play meaningful time in regular season games. Which again backups don't get unless somethng bad happens to the  starter.

Yes he has been in the system for a few years but still without any real reps in real game action he is going to have to take his lumps and get better and unfortunately Hundley didn't get better.  Now, I will say that I am not giving the coaching staff a pass on not getting him ready but as TDOG said I think last season really showed us that Hundley isnt really an NFL QB.

As for the Packers organization, I don't personally believe it is as dire as some fans seem to think.   Yes some moves like canning Ernest Capers came way too late, I feel they neglected the defense for too long, and draft choices didn't pan out but I think there will come a day when we are very thankful we have the GM we have now.  The guy seems to know what players to get to fit the scheme and that it is ok to be aggressive but smart in free agency.

Hundley isn't an NFL QB.  I wonder who should've known that within the 1st three seasons of him being in the league?

In a lot of ways, I feel bad for the kid.  He's taking more heat than the turds who set him up to fail. 

I don’t feel bad for Hundley at all. He had three years to get himself ready in the event last year happened. He had to have done the math and knew his best shot at starting would be someplace other than GB. 

And when that opportunity presented itself he completely **** the bed and chased any career advancement opportunity away. Yes. It was Mikes job to get him ready. But Hundley was the important part of the equation. 

After watching last year and reading Adams quote it’s totally fair game to ask if Hundley actually wants the responsibility and pressure of being a starting QB in the NFL. 

" He wins though,"

Wrong.  Your entire defense is built on a falsehood.   He does not win, Arron Rodgers wins.   

https://www.reddit.com/r/Green...other_great_coaches/

Henry posted:

ammo posted:

Henry posted:

Here's another interesting thought that came to mind.  We talk about franchise QBs but how rare are coaches that actually drive a team's success with almost any personnel?  Lombardi, Belichek, I guess Walsh.  That's a crazy rarity in this league.  

I think a guy named Starr had a lot to do with Lombardi's success.  As well as Bob, Fuzzy, Jerry and Forrest.  And he won 1 year without Taylor and Hornung,  And almost the same 11 on D.  So to say Lombardi won with almost  any personnel is not quite true. 

So Lombardi had no effect on their career development of guys already on the team or that he drafted?  The Packers weren't exactly tearing it up before Vince came to town so my statement is absolutely true.  Vince controlled the organization from top to bottom and it showed.  

 

1. Bart Starr, 17th round, No. 200 overall, 1956: There’s no better story in NFL history than the one about the soft-spoken quarterback from Alabama who was buried on the depth chart until Vince Lombardi arrived in Green Bay and recognized his championship qualities. There have been plenty of QBs with stronger arms and greater mobility, but when it comes to reading a defense, calling a game and leading a team, none was better. Five NFL titles in seven years says it all.

5. Paul Hornung, first round, No. 1 overall, 1957: The Golden Boy played several positions at Notre Dame, didn’t have fantastic speed or quickness and probably wouldn't get drafted in the first round today. But it’s hard to imagine the Packers winning all those championships in the ‘60s without him. Lombardi built the Packer sweep around Hornung and the rest is history.

My point is Henry we really can't say Lombardi would have won with any personnel because he never had any personnel. He had a very stable roster for 4 of the Championships.  The last one did have quite a few newbies but still the bulk of the roster was there from the beginning.  No doubt he made the Packers of the 60's what they were, but if he had stayed into the 70's I doubt his record would have been better than Bengston's.  Jack Vanisi does not get enough credit for the players he assembled and then went and convinced The  Executive Committee to hire Lombardi and convince Lombardi to come to Green Bay. 

Lombardi could've done whatever he pleased with those rosters and who he brought in.  He brought in championships.  Part of being excellent is being able to spot excellence.  

Take the "win with anybody" as a general statement.  The point is there are very few coaches on par with Lombardi.  MM isn't within a country mile. 

MM isn't within a country mile of Lombardi but honestly who is?  In my opinion unless you are Bill Belichick (who I believe sold his soul to the devil or is the devil) who really is?  it isn't fair to compare coaches in the salary cap era with Lombardi.  I would argue that sure MM hasn't won the titles but he has gotten his teams pretty darn far and has been pretty successful without having a GM who gave him players he needed especially on defense.  

Which reinforces Ammo's thoughts about Lombardi having a pretty steady roster for 4 of his titles.  Now?  the annual churn on most rosters makes it close to impossible to duplicate that.  

BrainDed posted:

" He wins though,"

Wrong.  Your entire defense is built on a falsehood.   He does not win, Arron Rodgers wins.   

https://www.reddit.com/r/Green...other_great_coaches/

 

He was 21-11 before Aaron became the starter. Granted he had Favre, but we’ve seen Favre have losing seasons with mediocre HC’s in the past, so it’s not like we can say Favre could carry a team or coach on his own. Without Rodgers, MM’s winning % is .545 which is second only to BB on the list from the link you provided.

Favre's stats were spinning out before MM corralled him into a near MVP season in 07.  

It is possible for coaches to peak just like it is for players.  Has that happened to MM?  Hard to say considering the poop carnival Googoodoll is trying to clean up.

Agree with the two posts above.  Getting a young Favre to buy in couldn't have been nearly as hard as getting an old Favre to buy in.

There's a limerick in there somewhere.

My favorite was MM saying (paraphrasing) "If he wasn't Brett Favre, I'd bench'im.

I've wondered about that quote (actually "bench his ass").  Did he already know AR was going to kill it as a QB, did he have enough confidence in him at that moment that the only thing holding his decision back was the fact that BF was the QB?  Or was he just so pissed and frustrated with Favre that he thought anything would have been better than watching him curl up in a ball for another half?

Grave Digger posted:

BrainDed posted:

" He wins though,"

Wrong.  Your entire defense is built on a falsehood.   He does not win, Arron Rodgers wins.   

https://www.reddit.com/r/Green...other_great_coaches/

 

He was 21-11 before Aaron became the starter. Granted he had Favre, but we’ve seen Favre have losing seasons with mediocre HC’s in the past, so it’s not like we can say Favre could carry a team or coach on his own. Without Rodgers, MM’s winning % is .545 which is second only to BB on the list from the link you provided.

Yes, he had 3 time MVP and universally known as the greatest of his generation Brett Favre.   Forgive me if I don't include that in the formula for "withour star QB's."

Good lord.   Your determination to refute evidence for those you chose to defend, until they are no longer Packers, is beyond impressive.   Are you a criminal defense attorney?

Part of me also wonders about Favre's intentions or will to win during that game.  We all saw his reaction to the weather conditions but he also knew going into that game that if GB won, he would face an 18-0 Patriots team that everyone thought was destined for legendary status.  Did he purposefully tank that game to avoid being known as the team/QB to lose to the undefeated champs, for all time?  Maybe not but I can't help but wonder if that thought didn't start creeping into his head come OT.

Tinfoil hat on a bit tight today?

Sure.  You could totally see how invested he was in that game by seeing him on the sidelines that night.  Or is this a "how dare you question lord favre's heart?" kind of thing.

I'm not carrying  Favres water, he did look shall we say, not invested and cold, that's a long way from theorizing that he was scared of NE and tanked the game.

Brett Favre. 

Belief in ability > Decision making. 

This equation cultivated itself from within as the years went by. 

It happens. 

DH13 posted:

There's a limerick in there somewhere.

"There was an old lecher named Tim
Who decided he needed more vim
But he took the wrong pill
Which made him quite ill
And now he's no longer a him"

Maybe you should re-read.  I didn't say he tanked the game.

BrainDed posted:

Grave Digger posted:

BrainDed posted:

" He wins though,"

Wrong.  Your entire defense is built on a falsehood.   He does not win, Arron Rodgers wins.   

https://www.reddit.com/r/Green...other_great_coaches/

 

He was 21-11 before Aaron became the starter. Granted he had Favre, but we’ve seen Favre have losing seasons with mediocre HC’s in the past, so it’s not like we can say Favre could carry a team or coach on his own. Without Rodgers, MM’s winning % is .545 which is second only to BB on the list from the link you provided.

Yes, he had 3 time MVP and universally known as the greatest of his generation Brett Favre.   Forgive me if I don't include that in the formula for "withour star QB's."

Good lord.   Your determination to refute evidence for those you chose to defend, until they are no longer Packers, is beyond impressive.   Are you a criminal defense attorney?

You didn’t say “without star QBs”, you just listed his record during Rodgers tenure. I just stated a fact, he has a winning record without Rodgers. His career didn’t start in 2008.

"he has a winning record without Rodgers"

So does Mike Sherman......   594 to be exact.   Because he had Brett Favre.     Why wordsmith this to the point of agony?    

MM has shown, and the data supports it, that his contributions are not large contributing factor to the W's this team has achieved.      Everybody wants BB performance but we would embrace 500 football without #12.   He can't provide it.   Others can. 

...and the title of the topic linked is "McCarthy without Rodgers vs other great coaches without their star QB's."   So it's assumed everyone understands that Favre is included in that list as the 3 time MVP is considered a star. 

McCarthy is an average to above average HC.  He’s been blessed with the 2nd best QB of our generation.   Not to mention a lot of really good players around him.  

What solidified my opinion of McStupidface were two key factors: 

1) his inability to develop his assistants or hold them accountable 

2) the whole Brett Hundley debacle 

I saw an earlier comment talking about Holmgen and Lombardi and MM isn’t half the coach or leader that those two were. 

Holmgren’s assistant coaching tree is well established and Lombardi was Belicheck before Belicheck. 

FF