Wonder how much McCarthy's legacy might be different if there was a suitable replacement for AJ Hawk anytime after 2011,
and/or
if Capers was replaced any time after the 2011 season.
We would’ve won that Super Bowl. No doubt about it in my mind.
It’s a Friday night. So I’ve got a cocktail and I can go down this road again even though this horse has taken a wicked beating.
GB went into Seattle and beat the living **** out of the defending SB Champions for 55 minutes in front of the 12’s and then Bostick. Bostick. **** you Slocum and **** you Mike for ****ty coaching loyalty. ****!!!!!
Green Bay was the best football team in 2014. But a series of unfortunate events stopped it from another Lombardi.
So they move on and fight for another chance.
The anti-McCarthy sentiment throughout Packer fandom is mind boggling to me.
Astonishing, really.
BrainDed posted:MM has shown, and the data supports it, that his contributions are not large contributing factor to the W's this team has achieved. Everybody wants BB performance but we would embrace 500 football without #12. He can't provide it. Others can.
I love this. The “data” supports it. The “data” doesn’t support anything, your opinion is that he hasn’t contributed to wins, which is asinine. The “data” supports that his backup QBs have failed. My opinion is that the GM built too heavily around the QB and the HC couldn’t keep his team motivated to compensate for the loss. Those were failures by those men, but those men were not failures.
BrainDed posted:Grave Digger posted:BrainDed posted:" He wins though,"
Wrong. Your entire defense is built on a falsehood. He does not win, Arron Rodgers wins.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Green...other_great_coaches/
He was 21-11 before Aaron became the starter. Granted he had Favre, but we’ve seen Favre have losing seasons with mediocre HC’s in the past, so it’s not like we can say Favre could carry a team or coach on his own. Without Rodgers, MM’s winning % is .545 which is second only to BB on the list from the link you provided.
Yes, he had 3 time MVP and universally known as the greatest of his generation Brett Favre. Forgive me if I don't include that in the formula for "withour star QB's."
Good lord. Your determination to refute evidence for those you chose to defend, until they are no longer Packers, is beyond impressive. Are you a criminal defense attorney?
Look at the 2005 year for the universally known as the greatest of his generation.
Look at the 2006 year for the universally known as the greatest of his generation.
Look at the 2007 year for the universally known as the greatest of his generation.
Oh, yeah, because McCarthy sucks.
That 2014 Seattle game is such a microcosm of Mike. It’s arguably the best coaching job he’s ever done. His team dominated Seattle on their field for 55 minutes in a title game.
His loyalty to an assistant that was openly viewed as a potential liability (Slocum) cost him.
And while I have repeatedly and openly questioned Mike for loyalty to assistants that have held his teams back (and will probably continue to do so) I also sit here today and watch Urban Meyer lay complicit waste to players and coaches in order to accomplish what’s important to Urban Meyer and wonder how he lives with himself.
So **** it Mike. Go win another Title and let’s think about #15.
You can't say his loyalty to assistant coaches was his fatal flaw in 14 when capers had that d humming from dec through Seattle. his unveiling of clay at ilb was impressive. no DC was going to prevent peppers from telling burnett to go down or from burnett listening to peppers. this rehashing has to stop. It's aging me.
Seattle: Momentum can be more fickle than a bouncing football. One minute, it's rolling your way, and the next you're full-out cursing and gnashing your teeth as you watch it go skittering away and you can't recapture it. That, and I wanted to make ^&^$^*(&%^ Bostick walk home.
MM is still a really good coach, but he was/is too loyal to his staff. I think he tends to hire guys he likes and gets along with rather than the best guy for the job, thus making it much harder to fire them. Most coaches do hire guys they know. And MM is not the guy who's going to yell "You're fired!" when the least little thing goes wrong or publicly throw someone under the bus. I'm glad he's not a slime like Urban Meyer, but he could be a little more Lombardi-like in terms of telling others "do your job or don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out." There should be no complacency on any coaching staff.
Brak posted:The anti-McCarthy sentiment throughout Packer fandom is mind boggling to me.
Astonishing, really.
Right back at ya.
I don't think it's so much "Anti-McCarthy" as it is....'we're sick of seeing the same old mistakes over & over & over & over' with no resolution in sight. It's maddening! Definition of insanity - doing the same thing over & over expecting a different result.
Not to mention the stubborn-ness he's seemingly displaying with trying to "force" Hundley's development, when it's quite clear Hundley is currently "maxed out" - the guess here is MM wants to show he can "coach up" another SuperStar QB but like Dom the Dominator Capers & James Cogbot Campen once said....
"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $#!T"
We want MM to succeed (again). That just isn't going to happen if he has this loyalty to players that simply CANNOT PLAY at this level.
MM is definitely on the hot-seat this season. No question.
He sucks as a manager and overall decision maker. A fine OC, stick with that.
I wonder how many of MM's critics have ever had to manage people. It's virtually impossible to do, and it's constantly open to "I told you so" s. But honestly, if anything is ever to be done, it has to occur.
I think he's done a good job, overall. Keeping a locker room together through thick and thin cannot be easy.
Also, in retrospect, I don't think he ever coined himself a "guru" of any kind.
We did that.
I’ve managed people for most of my 25 year professional working career.
The fatal flaw as a leader is not “walking the talk” in terms of accountability. I guess cronyism would be another major problem. Whatever the case, it’s not easy nor is it popular but that’s your job. You get paid to make the tough decisions.
MM has a blind spot in that regard. He’s loyal to a fault and unfortunately it has clouded his judgment and in the end will impact his legacy.
I think I disagree. I can't remember any situation where he uneccessarily threw someone under the bus. Do as I say not as I do would be not "walking the walk" IMHO.
I suspect one of the bigger issues at play is that dealing with fans and media can be challenging. I think often it can lead to a "circling the wagons" mentality, so that loyalty within the group gets heightened in order to defend against outside "attackers." Unfortunately, that dynamic can mean that the increased criticism that occurs when the team is struggling can increase that loyalty blind spot rather than decrease it, but that's what MM needed to overcome. My hope is that now that he no longer needs to defend Capers, he may have clearer vision and better decision making. We'll see. His job depends on it.
DH13 posted:You can't say his loyalty to assistant coaches was his fatal flaw in 14 ...
How soon we forget MM's longtime Special Teams Coordinator Shawn Slocum.
Despite coordinating some of the NFL's worst special teams for several years, MM kept his old buddy around for several years ... until after the final game of the 2014 season.
That is the one in Seattle, in the NFC Championship game.
In that game, Seahawk punter Jon Ryan threw a TD on a fake field goal and Brandon Bostick flubbed an onside kick. Hard to remember a game in which STs contributed more to an outcome.
Since MM let his loyal lap dog Slocum go, Shawn has not returned to the NFL.
I think we can safely say that MM's "loyalty to assistant coaches" was a fatal flaw in 2014 ... and thereafter.
You think you disagree? Fair enough
By the way, if you are setting proper expectations and holding people accountable there is no “throwing under the bus” mentality. You don’t do your goddamn job and the outcome takes care of itself. Unless you exist in MMs reporting relationship. Slocum and Capers could have been captain of the Exxon Valdez and McStupidface would have blamed it on the weather.
SteveLuke posted:DH13 posted:You can't say his loyalty to assistant coaches was his fatal flaw in 14 ...
How soon we forget MM's longtime Special Teams Coordinator Shawn Slocum.
Despite coordinating some of the NFL's worst special teams for several years, MM kept his old buddy around for several years ... until after the final game of the 2014 season.
That is the one in Seattle, in the NFC Championship game.
In that game, Seahawk punter Jon Ryan threw a TD on a fake field goal and Brandon Bostick flubbed an onside kick. Hard to remember a game in which STs contributed more to an outcome.
Since MM let his loyal lap dog Slocum go, Shawn has not returned to the NFL.
I think we can safely say that MM's "loyalty to assistant coaches" was a fatal flaw in 2014 ... and thereafter.
Yoos Guys leave Slocum alone! His Daddy got me tickets (and sideline passes) to the Pack’s home opener against Buffalo in 2010. Great game!
ChilliJon posted:That 2014 Seattle game is such a microcosm of Mike. It’s arguably the best coaching job he’s ever done. His team dominated Seattle on their field for 55 minutes in a title game.
His loyalty to an assistant that was openly viewed as a potential liability (Slocum) cost him.
And while I have repeatedly and openly questioned Mike for loyalty to assistants that have held his teams back (and will probably continue to do so) I also sit here today and watch Urban Meyer lay complicit waste to players and coaches in order to accomplish what’s important to Urban Meyer and wonder how he lives with himself.
So **** it Mike. Go win another Title and let’s think about #15.
This is a great post. That Seattle game was such a microcosm of the Packers on this decade on so many levels.
3. MM (or maybe TT) keeping around guys well past their prime (or never had a prime) because they were "Packer people" - AJ Hawk. The AJ Hawk/Brad Jones/Carl Bradford ILB problems. That cost them a lot, not just in this game.
2. Julius Peppers dominating and then taking plays off best illustrated by telling Burnett to lay down on the interception when Peppers should have been busting his ass to get out in front of him and spring him for another 30 yards to really put the game away.
3. Keeping UDFA as key backups instead of being willing to invest in a few veteran street free agents. Maybe a savvy veteran doesn't screw up like Bostick? Hard to say, but relying on these UDFAs at key moments seems to bite them in the ass quite a bit over the years.
4. Defensive collapses at the worst times. Dominate for the entire game and then look like Swiss cheese the last 5 minutes and OT.
5. Have Rodgers save their ass (driving down to force a tie after falling behind).
Tschmack posted:You think you disagree? Fair enough
By the way, if you are setting proper expectations and holding people accountable there is no “throwing under the bus” mentality. You don’t do your goddamn job and the outcome takes care of itself. Unless you exist in MMs reporting relationship. Slocum and Capers could have been captain of the Exxon Valdez and McStupidface would have blamed it on the weather.
Still in HR?
Heck, maybe you actually have to manage somebody. How would I know?
MichiganPacker23. MM (or maybe TT) keeping around guys well past their prime (or never had a prime) because they were "Packer people" - AJ Hawk. The AJ Hawk/Brad Jones/Carl Bradford ILB problems. That cost them a lot, not just in this game.
2. Julius Peppers dominating and then taking plays off...
3. Keeping UDFA as key backups instead of being willing to invest in a few veteran street free agents...
I agree with your post, but these are points I just don’t understand why they fall at the feet of MM? When talk about the Vikings, we don’t talk about “Brad Childress drafting Christian Ponder and Cordarrelle Patterson”, it’s Rick Spielman that takes the blame. It wasn’t Jim Zorn that was blamed for Albert Haynesworth giving up on his team. Mike Sherman the HC doesn’t get blamed for signing Joe Johnson and Hannibal Navies, it’s Mike Sherman the GM that is poorly regarded. When it’s any other team we see the role responsibilities as they are: the GM acquires the team, the players play the games, and the coaches are responsible for everything in between. We’re talking about MM acquiring players to field a roster, being responsible for the on-field effort of a 10 year veteran, etc. Why is he held to a different standard?
I agree he’s held on to staff too long. I think, just speculating, that he wants coaches who will execute his plan without deviating and he expects the players to execute that plan like professionals. I think he sells short the impact of team morale and quality coaches, even if they disagree with him on certain issues...which is why I think Kevin Greene left, I think they butted heads. I think you can point to lots of coaches successful coaches and see that though.
I currently manage a team and yes still work in HR
been doing it a hell of a lot longer than MM has been in a leadership role that’s for sure
I cringe when I think that GB will have nearly 3 decades of continuous HOF play at the most important position on a football team and potentially only have 2 rings to show for it. That would be a massive organizational failure.
Can't disagree but it's hard to win a ring.
Just ask Minnesota
Oh, OOPS, I'm supposed to be confined to the Vikings Suck thread.
BORIS!! Get me outta here!!
Satan...
This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Satan Test posted:Can't disagree but it's hard to win a ring.
Just ask Minnesota
Umm, not to nitpick, but Minnesota has no idea how hard it is to win a championship ring. Because they've never won one.
That's akin tome saying it's difficult to drop a deuce in the International Space Station. Uh, never be up there.
bdplant posted:Yoos Guys leave Slocum alone! His Daddy got me tickets (and sideline passes) to the Pack’s home opener against Buffalo in 2010. Great game!
HEY! I was there with Satori, Ammo & Coach. Pretty cool!
Satan, GTFO of this thread!
Brak posted:I wonder how many of MM's critics have ever had to manage people.
What does that have to do with him failing? They pay him millions of dollars not to fail.
I love how people contort for this turd. He was a big part of a broken system and yet he remains.
Yeah. Let’s bitch. This team is run so effed up it’s frustrating. I’ll take its past 12 years and put its resilience and success against any other team in the league, 12 or not (although I prefer AR behind center) Respect you all, but “entitled” comes to mind when people bitch about this franchise over the past few years (decade). Who’s won better other than NE?
Henry posted:Brak posted:I wonder how many of MM's critics have ever had to manage people.
What does that have to do with him failing? They pay him millions of dollars not to fail.
I love how people contort for this turd. He was a big part of a broken system and yet he remains.
Typical of your type. Tell people how to think.
Or state an opinion and defend it causing the rest of you princesses to clutch your pearls.
I find it absolutely hilarious how many of you are apoplectic about a guy who is past his due date. He had a good run. He was exposed last year for what he is, a good OC who was part of a failing apparatus. Don't worry, he's still here. He will give you plenty to love and cheer for while Rodgers does all the work.
It's like you'll go to no ends to disassemble TT and absolve MM when they were both the problem. MM is a bad personnel manager, particularly with his coaching staff, which he has full control over. I can fully admit TT was declining when presented with evidence but sometimes it does take the 30,000 foot view to see it all collectively. TT had to good run, now it's over. MM had a good run, he gets a pass.
So please, fire up your canned retorts about who did what on the field with what stats when that isn't the issue I'm talking about. Get ready to talk about how fabulous a field general he is during every game even though that's not the point. Capers, Moss, Clements, Van Pelt, Bennett, Macadoo, Slocum and I'm sure there are others. The only guy that seemed to come and go of his own volition was Greene. Why is that? Was the country club just too good for some coaches? Sure seems like it. I'm sure that didn't transfer to the field at all.
Do you want to know why all your fallaciously attached stats to MM mean nothing? Because on the field it's Rodgers. We saw it last year with "the QB room is fine" only for MM to **** on Hundley after the season. Whose job was it to make sure Hundley wasn't completely unprepared MM? Not you? Okay, McVince.
So when people start comparing a guy that can't even manage his own staff to Belichek and Lombardi, yeah, I'm going to crawl up your ass and make a nest. If MM is a super genius then surely Andy Reid must be in that pantheon right? He won with worm burner McNabb and Alex Smith.
Christ, you guys make me laugh. I don't think Rodgers would get this kind of defense.
The MM opinion survivors meeting will be held at 7 p.m. on Wednesday. There will be coffee and donuts, sobbing towels will be provided.
I'm not the one holding the cult gatherings.
On the field they'll be fine. The Siamese OCs play calling shouldn't be an issue but if Bahk or Buluga go down again, could get dicey.
If Pettine makes a solid turnaround that speaks poorly to McVince. I'll be curious to see how that weighs into the equation. Actually, I'm not because MM is damn near untouchable with Rodgers.
Tavis Smiley posted:Who’s won better other than NE?
That guy is not better pure player than Rodgers. Just like Hundley, McVince has hit his ceiling. I don't want to set my expectations to Vikings fandom level with a guy like Rodgers manning the helm.
This is not meant to be a MM Love Fest, although that may be a fun event to attend if it was a pool party and I can get MM shirtless. I get the perceived deficiencies that he has as coach and how Rodgers masks a lot of deficiencies of the entire organization. What I don’t believe is that getting rid of MM is necessarily the solution. There’s too much consistent success there, and in today’s NFL that’s not easily said or accomplished, and as much as I admire AR it’s not 100% him. Maybe 98.6%. Last year blew ass and finally changes were made on D. I hope that will do a lot in changing the identity of this team from a perspective of making it more of a complete unit. I struggle with the backup QB question. Not because I’m hard of sight, but because I feel indebted to organization over their success and their view of the situation more than I am my own or anyone else on here. As much as I admire a lot of you and your opinions (and I mean that genuinely, there are some smart mother effers on here that run circles around any of my football knowledge), I don’t believe you know more than the organization.
If things go to **** this year, I’ll be the first one to admit I was wrong, but I think the current regime is due an opportunity to prove itself again.