+ / - Colts loss

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

What makes it worse was that it was 2nd and 2. Maybe you call that play if it's 2nd and long and you need to take a chance to get back to 3rd and manageable. You have Aaron Jones in the game - run the ball and pick up the 1st down twice and keep their defense on its heels.

The 4th and 1 play in the 4th quarter (and the two 3rd and shorts in the 3rd quarter) were also poor decisions schematically. I've always hated the shotgun on 3rd/4th and short because it takes away the best part of your playbook in that situation - play action. That scheme may even make sense if you are the 2010-11 Packers and you can spread the field with Nelson, Jones, Jennings, Driver, Finley, and Cobb to get the best 1 x 1 matchup. But are you really going to be at an advantage spreading out Shepard, ESB, and Malik Taylor as some of your options? If you are going to pass, play-action keeps the DEs from firing off the ball and the LBs from getting depth on their drops. The only running play possible is a draw and that's a high-risk play that's almost as likely to result in a 5 yard loss as a long gainer.

The other thing about the OT play is that MVS cut toward the middle of the field and didn't protect the ball. Watching it live, I was thinking maybe this will work well because I thought he was going to run toward the sideline and pick up an easy 4-5 yards and the first down. It's a different discussion if MVS was supposed to take that wide (or just put two hands on the ball and run straight forward). Has anyone seen if they commented on that's how that was designed (or maybe it's just throw him the ball and let him decide?)

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@DH13 posted:

Henry's "this defense is a dead end" could be the statement of the year.

It was the opening 10-3 win at Chicago a year ago where Rodgers gushed about having a defense. Seven losses and numerous cardiac inducing wins later, the defense looks more clueless and exasperated than ever. It's become pathetic and embarrassing to watch these guys fail time and time again. They seemed much more active in the 1st half yesterday, and whether it was dumb luck or good football, they forced a couple turnovers that led to a 14 pt lead.

I'm not a scheme guy. I can't look at a formation and determine what job belongs to who. I know for anything to flow, the d line needs to win at the point of attack. I know pressure on the qb is usually a really good thing. I know in numerous games in the past 3-4 years a decent secondary has been forced to cover guys far too long on a given play. I know our lbs have been well below average for a good long time. What I can't figure out is how this unit can get schooled so badly and so often. Rivers floated balls all over the yard, and the target still had room to catch and run. The run d looked as good in the 1st half as it has in the last 2 years, then they get steamrolled to start the 2nd half. Is it scheme? Is it crummy players, or stupid players? It seems to me if you have a solid gameplan, marginal players and backups should still be able to step in and if nothing else hold serve based on assignment and hustle. We know they're soft. But why are they so out of position ALL the time? Why are they beaten SO badly on a routine basis?

Here's the MVS fumble in slo-mo. Issue on the play was mainly a failure of both Lazard and Tonyan in blocking Blackmon.

@Packdog posted:

Hard to win when you turn the ball over 4 times.

Pettine is just a bad DC. There are definitely some talent deficiencies, but some of the scheme calls are incompetent ... and being repeated week after week. Can’t even cover basic crossing routes, Preston in coverage, Lowry constantly used as the DT in a 2 man front, off coverage on 3rd and long, Deep zone on running downs, etc..

Great strategy by the Colts to force the Packers to return several KO’s. Especially when you have a mistake prone fringe roster guy with marginal speed returning. Shepard has had some brutal moments as a Packer.

Opie might be another missed draft pick. Too many ugly ones from him.

Such a great 1st half and then they come out an shit the bed in the 3rd quarter.

Offense scored 28 points in the 1st half and disappeared in the 2nd half...3 points at the very end of regulation.

Not sure when, but Pettine needs to go !!!

Pettine's scheme is designed to make the other execute 12 to 15 play drives and hope that they make a mistake at some point. It's why they drop guys 15 yards deep on 3rd and 10 instead of coming after the QB and forcing the ball out. It's playing dime defense to open the second half on every down and distance to not give up a big play.

The only drives they get stops on are if Z. Smith gets a sack or if a QB makes a terrible throw or if a WR drops a pass. Once in a while, they'll stuff a running play, but that's just someone making a play 1x1, not because they came up with a creative run blitz.

For the most part, they approach every defensive play with a mindset not to give up a big play instead of forcing the action and making a big play (which would risk giving up a big play). That works much better against inexperienced QBs or mistake-prone guys. The two games against Minnesota were a perfect example of this. In the first game, Cousins made some terrible decisions with risky throws which were the difference in the game. In the second game, they clearly told Cousins not to make any risky throws and were just patient with running Cook and doing dump downs.

@Pikes Peak posted:

- Rodgers yukking it up with Rivers after the game.   I prefer garbage can throwing guys after a loss.  Sometimes it appears we take this stuff more seriously than the players.  I know deep down that he took the loss hard and is a fierce competitor but instead of laughing with Phil how about screaming at Pettine.

i agree, fans take it way more seriously. Death threats to MVS? Come on. Grow the hell up. Those guys are all friends and have relationships outside the game. Nothing wrong with Rodgers smiling and laughing with Rivers.

Still really am confused about the 2 stop clock spikes on that last drive of regulation

• 1st & 10 at IND 47

  (1:10 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass short middle to D.Adams to IND 33 for 14 yards (K.Moore).

• 1st & 10 at IND 33

  (0:57 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) A.Rodgers spiked the ball to stop the clock.

You had basically a minute to go at their 33, you had just completed a 14 yard play so there wasn't that much scrambling to get back to the line. Still not a fan of it today and would rather force the D into scramble mode of keeping up, but fine. Catch your breath, get a good play.

• 2nd & 10 at IND 33

  (0:57 - 4th) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass short middle to D.Adams to IND 15 for 18 yards (K.Moore).

• 1st & 10 at IND 15

  (0:42 - 4th) (No Huddle) A.Rodgers spiked the ball to stop the clock.

This one however, I do not understand at all. After the completion to Adams you had nearly 45 seconds, at their 15 after an 18 yard play where there was no major scrambling waiting on guys 40 yards down the field. 45 seconds is more than enough time to get 3 shots at EZ even if you don't get OOB on one (hell maybe two) of them.

If you don't clock it there, you'll get at least 3 shots before having to kick the FG. They clocked it and ended up giving themselves only 2 shots, which included wasting 15-20 seconds to snap the ball for 3rd and 3 after the Tonyan completion where he stayed in bounds.  And that's all ignoring the ability to quickly run a play while Indy is trying to line up, not be offsides, catch their breath, and not panic about blowing the game vs giving them a breather and time to line up and call a play.

Just so many mistakes and breakdowns across the board, but simple basic good clock management would have at least given them 1 more shot to win it in regulation.

@michiganjoe posted:

Here's the MVS fumble in slo-mo. Issue on the play was mainly a failure of both Lazard and Tonyan in blocking Blackmon.

And if the HC knows his personnel, he doesn't call on an inconsistent player to execute that play. Way too many moving parts, too many things going on around the guy with the ball. That's a play you run on the other side of midfield, and to a reliable vet. The o line did a great job giving Rodgers time to find guys on north/south plays. Every scoring drive was vg rhythm and positive chunk yards. Why on earth would you get cute on 2nd and 2? It was a ridiculous idea against a good, smart, disciplined defense.

@artis posted:

It was the opening 10-3 win at Chicago a year ago where Rodgers gushed about having a defense. Seven losses and numerous cardiac inducing wins later, the defense looks more clueless and exasperated than ever. It's become pathetic and embarrassing to watch these guys fail time and time again. They seemed much more active in the 1st half yesterday, and whether it was dumb luck or good football, they forced a couple turnovers that led to a 14 pt lead.

I'm not a scheme guy. I can't look at a formation and determine what job belongs to who. I know for anything to flow, the d line needs to win at the point of attack. I know pressure on the qb is usually a really good thing. I know in numerous games in the past 3-4 years a decent secondary has been forced to cover guys far too long on a given play. I know our lbs have been well below average for a good long time. What I can't figure out is how this unit can get schooled so badly and so often. Rivers floated balls all over the yard, and the target still had room to catch and run. The run d looked as good in the 1st half as it has in the last 2 years, then they get steamrolled to start the 2nd half. Is it scheme? Is it crummy players, or stupid players? It seems to me if you have a solid gameplan, marginal players and backups should still be able to step in and if nothing else hold serve based on assignment and hustle. We know they're soft. But why are they so out of position ALL the time? Why are they beaten SO badly on a routine basis?

I remember very well when Rodgers said something like "how about that defense we have a defense"  well I am sure he no longer feels that way.

Artis, I think it is both scheme and part crummy players.  When you are starting Lancaster and Lowery on the DL and a endless parade of crappy ILBs you are going to have trouble stopping the run.  Because the players are crappy ABM is having to rush the OLBs constantly and when they over commit the RBs run right by them.  One other thing that I notice about the Packers defense compared to other teams is they don't HIT you and they definitely can't tackle.  I will eventually stop ranting about the defense but I don't think I will anytime soon.

@artis posted:

And if the HC knows his personnel, he doesn't call on an inconsistent player to execute that play.

Won't get any argument from me that Lazard was probably a better choice on the play. That said, he and Tonyan do a better job and Blackmon doesn't force a fumble and it's not an issue.

@Floridarob posted:

Grow the hell up. Those guys are all friends and have relationships outside the game. Nothing wrong with Rodgers smiling and laughing with Rivers.

Exactly.

Rivers & Rodgers were literally neighbors for several years out in San Diego.

Did Packer fans object when Rodgers and (another of his former SD neighbors) Brees greeted one another after we beat the Saints earlier this season?

I did have to chuckle at Troy's burn on the defense in the first quarter.

I wish I could tell you what kind of defense the Packers are playing but I can't. It looks like they're just running around out there.

I loved that and it showed way Pettine should be fired NOW! Pathetic.

@RochNyFan posted:

I'm guessing they drop 1 of the 2 to Chicago, and will have real trouble with Tennessee.

Tennessee is going to beat us to a pulp. We can't stop the fucking run, for Christ sakes.

Use Martin and Barnes, Sit Kirksey, our only shot against Tennessee.... Also More Gary.

@YATittle posted:

Use Martin and Barnes, Sit Kirksey, our only shot against Tennessee.... Also More Gary.

Cripes...sign Gilbert Brown and BJ Raji...even Howard Green.  They would all be better than the crap they roll out there every week.

Brown, Raji, Green don't play ILB.

I was a fan of Pettine early, but he is reminding me more and more of Dom. None, zero, zilch, absolutely no creativity as the game unfolds.

Derrick Henry will go for 200.

Another view of the MVS fumble with a better angle of the woeful blocking (MVS certainly shouldn't get a pass on the poor ball security).

Elton Jenkins live right now with a great mask on

Elgton Jenkins meets with the media on Monday 🎥 https://t.co/xjnYnO1dp0

— Green Bay Packers (@packers) November 23, 2020

@Boneio posted:

Derrick Henry will go for 200.

In the first half. 

Old coaching adage ...."you never are as good as you think you are, you are never as bad as you think you are ...you are ALWAYS somewhere in-between"

@H5 posted:

Brown, Raji, Green don't play ILB.

I was a fan of Pettine early, but he is reminding me more and more of Dom. None, zero, zilch, absolutely no creativity as the game unfolds.

He has less imagination than Dom. Neither could adjust a game plan to save their lives.

@H5 posted:

Brown, Raji, Green don't play ILB.

But they protected the living daylights out of ILBs.

Speaking of ILB, I preferred the rookies to Kirksey. Kirksey is even slower than Martinez. Injuries have apparently slowed him down.

@DH13 posted:

Henry's "this defense is a dead end" could be the statement of the year.

May be statement of the decade.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Don't throw at Jaire Alexander. That's what's most amazing. They have an absolute lockdown corner that basically takes away half the field and they still can't stop anyone.

And even he's been handcuffed by this defense. It seems he and King, maybe to a bit lesser extent, would welcome press coverage and one on one matchups if it gave the rest of the unit some flexibility. They both have the demeanor like Al Harris, Mckenzie and other ballsy cbs that have come though GB. Tramon, Shields, dare I say even Jarrett Bush benefitted greatly from teammates with savvy and experience. When handled properly, it also sets a tone that hasn't existed on defense in a good 8-10 years. The odds of big plays diminish significantly when a qb knows he's gonna take hits from free blitzers.

@The Heckler posted:

In the first half.

On his first carry.

Never would have given it to MVS on a WR screen like that. Lizard is the choice every time. MVS is your long guy; Lizard is your fighter. MVS doesn't like contact; Lizard thrives on bowling people over. Bad play call there.

@Fandame posted:

Never would have given it to MVS on a WR screen like that. Lizard is the choice every time. MVS is your long guy; Lizard is your fighter. MVS doesn't like contact; Lizard thrives on bowling people over. Bad play call there.

And certainly not on 2nd and 2 from your own 30 when you've been throwing north/south with great results most of the day. I'd like someone to own that part of it. MVS owned his mistake.

MVS is also the better blocker, between him and Lazard. Give the ball to Lazard and have MVS block Blackmon, there,  and maybe we convert.

I thought Lazard was the consensus better blocker.

On the year I think so, though MVS had probably his best game blocking down field based on what I saw.

@SteveLuke posted:

Exactly.

Rivers & Rodgers were literally neighbors for several years out in San Diego.

Did Packer fans object when Rodgers and (another of his former SD neighbors) Brees greeted one another after we beat the Saints earlier this season?

Rodgers has said that Rivers is one of his favorite players and he finds him hilariously funny.  Given Rodgers sense of humor, Rivers must be one goofy MF.

You'd have to be with 9 kids.

I'd say more "horny" than "goofy". Either that, or the guy's got rocket fuel.  None kiddos, sheesh!

For what it's worth. Time will tell. Wherever you go, there you are. Only the good die young.

Last year mid-November, Chiefs lost a shootout on road to the Titans 35-32. Then ran off 9 wins on way to winning SB

Go back & look at the comments/tweets after that Chiefs loss. It's the SAME EXACT comments from Packers fan base this week saying 'this team isn't a SB contender'

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) November 24, 2020

The fact of the matter is given the Packers cap situation they need guys like EQ and MVS to contribute.  

MVS has shown flashes of being a legit player and I have yet to see any DB run with him downfield.  No one else on the roster can do that.  That’s his role IMO.  Blow the top off the defense.   Yes he’s had drops and the fumble was awful but I’m not sure what we should expect of the guy.  He’s a 5th round pick for a reason.  If he had footwork and body control like Davante Adams and hands like Deandre Hopkins he would have been a 1st round pick.  But he’s a project - and to that extent he needs to be viewed as such not some guy chosen 12th overall (sorry Rashaun Gary).

@H5 posted:

On the year I think so, though MVS had probably his best game blocking down field based on what I saw.

@H5 posted:

On the year I think so, though MVS had probably his best game blocking down field based on what I saw.

I noticed that too during this game

Only 1 point for that reply, not two.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

And those two throws to MVS that travelled 55+ yards in the air and hit him in stride in the chest are typical what you see from every QB in the league.

Shhhhh, he's trying to revive the notion that Rodgers is no longer elite.

He's going to be right eventually. Not this year though. Doubt he'll be right next either. But some day...

@H5 posted:

For what it's worth. Time will tell. Wherever you go, there you are. Only the good die young.

Last year mid-November, Chiefs lost a shootout on road to the Titans 35-32. Then ran off 9 wins on way to winning SB

Go back & look at the comments/tweets after that Chiefs loss. It's the SAME EXACT comments from Packers fan base this week saying 'this team isn't a SB contender'

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) November 24, 2020

It's a good comparison, here's the difference.

In 2018, the Chiefs were 12-4, had a first round bye, and lost in the AFC title game in OT by giving up 37 points. Their defense was atrocious in 2018. They had games where they gave up 54, 43, 38, 37, 33, 29, 27, and 27 during the year. They were the second worst defense by yardage in the league and fired their DC after the season (Bob Sanders) and replaced him with Steve Spagnuola.

In the off-season prior to the 2019 season, the Chiefs felt they were close given they had 3 Pro-Bowl skill players on offense: a superstar QB, a superstar WR (T. Hill), and a superstar TE (Kelce). They knew they had to get better on defense, so they signed 4 new defensive starters: Tyrone Mathieu, (Pro Bowl safety) Breeland (CB), Damien Wilson (LB), and Alex Okafor (DE). In the draft, despite already being loaded on offense they used one of their two second-round picks to get a WR that ran a 4.33  (Mecole Hardman) and the other to draft a safety (Thornill) that started every game as a rookie. In the third round, they drafted a 324 pound DL rotation guy that played about 30% of the snaps that year (Saunders). In other words, they upgraded at 6 defensive positions and made sure their offense stayed similar in personnel (by subbing Hardman for K. Hunt).

In the off-season prior to this season, the Packers must not have felt they were close. The similarities are there. 3 Pro-Bowl skill players on offense (Rodgers, Adams, and Jones). The Packers had a much better offensive line and arguably more high-end defensive talent coming back than the Chiefs did the previous year (Alexander, Z. Smith, and K. Clark). The Packers replaced Bulaga with Wagner (a downgrade on a per-game basis but more availability) on offense and did nothing else on offense in free agency.  The Packers replaced Martinez with Kirksey and did nothing else on defense in free agency. They then used the top 4 rounds of the draft to draft 2 guys they are currently redshirting (Love and Dillon) and a project guy at TE (DeGuara).

The Chiefs thought they were close and aggressively tried to improve. The Packers likely could not have done less to improve this year had they been trying to do just that.