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This fucking idiot Mark Attanasio “Counsell has lost us and lost our community”
What community is that? You aren’t from Wisconsin. Counsell is. You are a goddamn coastal sandbagger. Know your place you elitist scumbag.
You bought the team for about 250M. Latest valuation is about 2B. Take a 5000% profit and move on. I don’t need to hear you lecture Counsel as you could have offered him close to what he was worth but like the rest of your cheap ass organization it’s better to deflect instead of just owning what a POS you really are.
I haven’t gone to a Brewers game in nearly 3 years. This after going to dozens of games each year previously. I highly recommend others do the same. This douchbag doesn’t care about Milwaukee. So don’t spend the money. He sure as shit doesn’t.
@Pikes Peak posted:Poor man wanna be rich…..
In the words of Bruce Springsteen (Badlands)
Poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king
And a king ain't satisfied till he rules everything
I gotta say reading this thread really swayed my view on things. I went from being overtly pissed at Counsell for leaving "us" to now thinking Attanasio really must have alienated him.
Now I still think it's a dick move to go to the Cubs, don't get me wrong. It just proves though that as disappointing as it is, loyalty in sports doesn't exist. The warm and fuzzy idea that the local homegrown kid would stay for the fans and the community is a pipe dream. Makes me realize at how stupid our fandom for these sports is. Why do we invest so much time and emotion to something that doesn't reciprocate?
I give up on sports every couple months and deleted my sports links under my bookmarks, only to come back a week or two later. I really wish I just had the balls to give it up for good. It's like being in a one sided relationship. Sorry to be so heavy, typing out loud during one of my sports "break-ups"
@Tschmack posted:I haven’t gone to a Brewers game in nearly 3 years. This after going to dozens of games each year previously. I highly recommend others do the same. This douchebag doesn’t care about Milwaukee. So don’t spend the money. He sure as shit doesn’t.
Last game I was at in Milwaukee was July 2019. Also watched them in SF vs. The Giants.
@MichiganPacker posted:And a king ain't satisfied till he rules everything
What do all men with power want? More power - The Oracle from the Matrix
@Tavis Smiley posted:Why do we invest so much time and emotion to something that doesn't reciprocate?
I've been investing less and less as I grow older.
@MichiganPacker posted:In the words of Bruce Springsteen (Badlands)
Poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king
And a king ain't satisfied till he rules everything
One of his top three songs.
@RochNyFan posted:One of his top three songs.
Absolute best when he's played it in Spain and Italy ....those crowds are insane.
@Boris posted:Last game I was at in Milwaukee was July 2019. Also watched them in SF vs. The Giants.
The last Brewers game I went to Ron Guidry was the starting pitcher for the Yankees. LOL.
@mrtundra posted:
I never saw this coming, Counsell making a play for fame and money. Two things he already had.
Now that I have had a few hours to assess all this I hate to say anything bad about Counsell because of all he did for the Brewers. On the other hand I did question some of his managerial moves. But this move makes me view as nothing more than a Benedict Arnold, or maybe that should be Benedick Arnold. He knows who the Brewer fans hate more than any other, but it is like he said a big Fuck You to Milwaukee fans. We criticize players and coaches for the high salaries they demand but yet jump on owners when they resist such payouts. Make up your goddamn minds.
And if you are going to Brewer or any other games because you want to support the owner you are going for the rong reason. I go because I enjoy the sport and want to watch my favorite players and to enjoy the venue. To boycott the Brewers because you hate the owner is just absurd.
Maybe it’s because I grew up listening to Bob Uecker in the summer time that’s helped me stay connected with this team throughout the years but I really don’t like how the last couple of years have played out for this team. Maybe I’m just naive but I tried to believe Attanasio and Counsell were different. In the end, I think they are both trying to do what they think is best for themselves.
So much of sports has simply become all about the money and honestly it’s sucked some of the enjoyment out of following these teams and watching the games. Major college sports aren’t much different now than pro teams.
As both of my kids play HS sports (one that just graduated) I’m finding myself so much more interested in what their teams do as well as what their friends teams do than what’s happening with the Packers and Badgers and Brewers and at times the Bucks as well. We went to Milwaukee this weekend to watch the HS soccer playoffs and that was a hell of a lot more fun than Badgers v Indiana or Packers v Rams.
In the end, I’m not really sure Counsell or Attanasio care what most of us think and I’m fine with that. The whole “loyalty” thing cuts both ways. And how people choose to spend their time and their money as fans is a personal choice as well. I just can’t stand Attanasio and I will not spend $ to support an owner that isn’t investing in the team. I’m not thrilled Counsell left for the Cubs either, but hey, he chose the best offer and if given the choice I’m sure many people would have done the same thing.
@ammo posted:Now that I have had a few hours to assess all this I hate to say anything bad about Counsell because of all he did for the Brewers. On the other hand I did question some of his managerial moves. But this move makes me view as nothing more than a Benedict Arnold, or maybe that should be Benedick Arnold. He knows who the Brewer fans hate more than any other, but it is like he said a big Fuck You to Milwaukee fans. We criticize players and coaches for the high salaries they demand but yet jump on owners when they resist such payouts. Make up your goddamn minds.
And if you are going to Brewer or any other games because you want to support the owner you are going for the rong reason. I go because I enjoy the sport and want to watch my favorite players and to enjoy the venue. To boycott the Brewers because you hate the owner is just absurd.
Jumping Jehoshaphat Ammo! We agree on something!
I think Counsell is giving a big middle finger to Attanasio and the front office. He still has family in Milwaukee area so I doubt he’s doing this to piss off or alienate the fans.
Perhaps it’s due to ownership doing crap like trading Josh Hader and then blaming failures on guys like Counsell or even Burnes. Remember, Counsell was a player so he knows how hard it is to work your ass off and maybe have others downplay your success or point the finger.
Respect is important, but much like Aaron Rodgers, these guys want to feel wanted.
@ammo posted:Now that I have had a few hours to assess all this I hate to say anything bad about Counsell because of all he did for the Brewers. On the other hand I did question some of his managerial moves. But this move makes me view as nothing more than a Benedict Arnold, or maybe that should be Benedick Arnold. He knows who the Brewer fans hate more than any other, but it is like he said a big Fuck You to Milwaukee fans. We criticize players and coaches for the high salaries they demand but yet jump on owners when they resist such payouts. Make up your goddamn minds.
And if you are going to Brewer or any other games because you want to support the owner you are going for the rong reason. I go because I enjoy the sport and want to watch my favorite players and to enjoy the venue. To boycott the Brewers because you hate the owner is just absurd.
Good post. In the end, with just a few exceptions, we are really just rooting for laundry. And, often those who stay get forgotten in history relative to those who leave for greener pastures. Would you rather be Paul Molitor or Robin Yount?
Counsell was a free agent and he was supposedly doing this to help empower other managers to make more. That's a worthy goal, but I don't think David Ross feels very empowered today getting fired from a job he had until they hired Counsell. Ross was the manager while the Cubs finished dismantling the last remnants of the team that won in 2016 rather than pay top dollar, fell out of the pennant race at least in part because injuries to his starting pitchers, and then got jettisoned just when they appear to want to start spending money again.
Then, there's this. It looks like Counsell reached out during this season to make some contact with the Cubs. Of course, if Attanasio would have just matched the offer, Counsell would still be in Milwaukee, but it looks like Counsell's squeaky-clean, local Brewers clubhouse kid make good persona, wasn't quite true all the time.
https://www.bleachernation.com...nted-cubs-all-along/
As the Cubs did their homework, knowing Counsell chose to play this year out rather than sign an extension with Milwaukee, they were told by one of Counsell’s friends, ‘If he ever managed anywhere else, the Cubs have always been his dream job.'”
How many times did Counsell finish 2nd in the manager of the year ballot? You finish 2nd when you do the best job but don't win. And resources has always held the Brewers back and Counsell, like all of us, knows ownership is never going to step up. I'm sure he became very frustrated knowing he had taken this team as far as he could. This season really showed how an anemic offense can be much improved even with a couple aging journeymen. It doesn't take much to make that final push but this franchise will be building for the future forever.
It will be interesting how Counsell does for a team with resources. It should affect how FAs look at joining the Cubs.
Here's how I look at it. Yes, I place most of this decision squarely on Markie.
I think beyond Counsell's salary, it was largely the non-moves with the Brewers that basically sat on their hands and were content with being playoff contenders and nothing more.
Mark is not going to spend what was needed to truly make the Brewers a WS contender and Craig knew this. The last straw might have been watching them squabble over Corbin Burnes and the pittance of money they weren't willing to give him in Spring.
This is a small market team and Mark's main goal is to make money. Period. He's never going to give this team the kind of payroll needed to win a WS. He can say what he wants, the last few years have proven it.
MLB is also on the decline kids. Look at the WS audience TV draws since 2016. It's steadily gone done year after year. This Gen Z and Millennials have fewer and fewer interest in the game as the years go by.
Mark likely knows that too. So, he will do the minimum he can to do just enough to make a Brewers team relevant, sorta.
Some reports made it also sound like he just up and told the Brewers he was going to the Cubs, so he may not even have given them a chance to match. Mark A. is an ass to be sure, and definitely cheaps out, but Counsell had other great offers, and he seemingly out of nowhere chooses the Brewers' biggest rival?
Sure, he's sticking it to Mark A. and the organization, but he's really sticking it to all of the fans who supported and rooted for him.
Fuck him.
A list of candidates.
Joe Espada
Dusty Baker’s bench coach in Houston is a candidate to replace the retiring legend. If the Astros go in a different direction, Espada, 48, would be a strong candidate for any job in baseball. He’s bilingual and has been coaching in the Majors or Minors since 2010.
Don Mattingly
Manager of the Dodgers from 2011-15 and the Marlins from 2016-22, Mattingly is now bench coach of the Blue Jays. He gained fortune and fame as the sweet-swinging first baseman for Attanasio’s boyhood team, the Yankees.
Clayton McCullough
The Dodgers' first-base coach, 43, managed for 10 years in the Minors for the Blue Jays before moving to the Dodgers’ system starting in 2015. He has a reputation for developing younger players and was a finalist for the Royals before they hired current skipper Matt Quatraro.
Troy Snitker
The son of Braves manager Brian Snitker has been the Astros' hitting coach since 2019. Just 34, Snitker impressed enough in his first season as Houston’s Double-A hitting coach in 2018 that the Astros promoted him to the Major League staff.
Andy Green or David Ross
Green, the former utility infielder is just 46 and has MLB managerial experience with the Padres from 2016 until he was let go in September 2019. Since then, he’s been the Cubs’ bench coach under Ross, who suddenly, stunningly, became a free agent on Monday after going 262-284 in four seasons at the helm in Chicago. What a story that would be.
Gabe Kapler
A Brewers outfielder in 2008, Kapler has managed parts of six seasons for the Phillies and Giants. San Francisco let him go near the end of the regular season. The 48-year-old Kapler is serious about fitness and meditation, and particularly attuned to the front office. He reportedly interviewed last month for Boston’s top baseball operations job.
Rodney Linares
The 46-year-old has a ton of managerial experience after beginning a coaching career in 1999 at the ripe old age of 21. During his 12 years as a skipper in Houston’s system, he managed the likes of Jose Altuve, Alex Bregman, Carlos Correa, J. D. Martinez and George Springer. Linares has been on the Rays' staff since 2019, first as third-base coach and now bench coach.
INTERNAL CANDIDATES
Pat Murphy
Attanasio made additional news Monday night when he said all of the Brewers’ coaches had signed contracts for 2024. That presumably includes their 64-year-old bench coach, who was once Counsell’s college coach at Notre Dame and is known for sometimes coaching as if he’s on a football field, not a baseball diamond. Murphy briefly managed the Padres in 2015 before answering Counsell’s call to Milwaukee.
Rickie Weeks
Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder were the headliners, but a lot of the Brewers’ toughness in the late 2000s and early 2010s, as the franchise ended its long postseason drought, came from Weeks. After a few years at home with his kids the Brewers hired him as an instructor in February 2022, and Weeks was just promoted to special assistant this week.
Victor Estevez
Any of the managers of Milwaukee’s full-season Minor League affiliates could get a look, from Rick Sweet at Triple-A Nashville to Mike Guerrero at Double-A Huntsville to Joe Ayrault at High-A Wisconsin to Estevez at Low-A Carolina. Estevez is 35, has managed five seasons in the Minors and has a bright future after leading a young Mudcats team to the franchise’s first postseason berth since 2008. He has a high-profile job this winter managing Escogido in the Dominican League.
I think it might be challenging to find a seasoned replacement for Counsell because this team is trending downward (talent) and it’s not like Mark A is going to pay top dollar for a skipper. So I’d think they will lean toward someone in their system or maybe a less experienced guy.
This happened:
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I can speak from experience having played Little League as a kid and coaching my younger daughters Little League teams that there are some sensitive, crazy, obnoxious, over the top fans and parents so nothing would surprise me.
For all we know the vandal is some 65 year old Cubs fan living in their parents basement that hates the Counsell move.
Still, can’t spell classy without ass so nice move brah!
@Tschmack posted:I think it might be challenging to find a seasoned replacement for Counsell because this team is trending downward (talent) and it’s not like Mark A is going to pay top dollar for a skipper. So I’d think they will lean toward someone in their system or maybe a less experienced guy.
I was surprised the see Weeks on the list. No managerial experience at all. He'll take the job for much less than Counsell was making. He was a Brewer favorite. That's the kind of hire that wouldn't surprise me.
Nobody is going to make a lateral move to take this job.
@Tschmack posted:I can speak from experience having played Little League as a kid and coaching my younger daughters Little League teams that there are some sensitive, crazy, obnoxious, over the top fans and parents so nothing would surprise me.
For all we know the vandal is some 65 year old Cubs fan living in their parents basement that hates the Counsell move.
Still, can’t spell classy without ass so nice move brah!
I worked with a guy that umpired as a side job for Little League. He had a parent come out of the stands and punch him out one time over a call he didn't like.
@Blair Kiel posted:This happened:
Kiel, did you visit relatives while you were in Whitefish Bay?
My daughter’s last year of LL was 3 years ago but we see it once in a while in club ball the overzealous and aggressive parents. Sometimes opposing coaches as well. It’s a big reason why you don’t see as many younger umpires. They don’t want to put up with the shenanigans.
Fights at a kids game is never a good look. Morans!
As for coaches, maybe a guy like Weeks is worth a shot? The team probably won’t be very good but RW was a hard worker and a talented player.
Baseball isn't a complicated game to manage. In game decisions are pretty dictated by the situation. Counsell was well liked and respected by the players and that's a big part of it with the modern day athlete. Weeks could probably get the same respect since he played at the highest level.
Anybody out of work or getting a promotion is going to jump on the opportunity. But taking a job being expected to win with limited resources isn't the greatest situation. I'm sure Counsell is happy to have an owner that will spend, a place where winning is the #1 priority.
The Cubs signed Bellinger to a one year $17 million deal last year after two terrible seasons. The Brewers would never take a chance like that.
@Tschmack posted:I think it might be challenging to find a seasoned replacement for Counsell because this team is trending downward (talent) and it’s not like Mark A is going to pay top dollar for a skipper. So I’d think they will lean toward someone in their system or maybe a less experienced guy.
I don't think they are tending down in talent at all, if anything they are rising. Everybody knew the rookie outfielders were going to struggle hitting wise as well as Truang. But boy can those guys play defense. There are some great guys in AA and AAA coming up next year or 2025. Lots of young arms in the bullpen, but yes starting pitching needs an infusion of talent now with Woody on the shelf and Burnes future uncertain. What they really need to hire is the best hitting coach available, whether as a coach alone or as a manager.
Kevin Seitzer is another name as a possible replacement. Always liked him as a player in Milwaukee and if he can get the Brewers hitting like he has the Braves I'm all for him.
And once again, Counsell would have never been fired in Milwaukee. If he doesn't win a World Series by 2026 he can kiss his job in Chicago good bye.
Sorry ammo, but I am going to completely disagree.
18 months ago this team had Woodruff, Burnes and Peralta plus Hader and Williams. That combination of elite pitching is easily the best in team history even v early 1980s. It’s championship level.
Woodruff is hurt and Burnes will likely be dealt. Hader has been traded. The Brewers are in a much weaker position of strength today and it’s not even debatable.
Minor league guys are just that and this is coming from a guy that was geeked about Mitchell and Turang among others. It’s easy to get enamored with prospects but reality is most will not work out.
The Brewers had a 3-4 year window to make hay and they fucked it all up by not adding a bat or two. It may be another 25 years before the stars align.
As for Counsell, good for him. I won’t root for Chicago but people wanting him to fail are either jealous or clueless. It won’t change what happens in Milwaukee so why get upset about it? A lot of people thought he was overrated or worthless so now it’s time to get pissed off or bitter? Uh OK.
We have an owner that has shown he won’t go all in to invest in the roster and that won’t change with or without Counsell. So get over it. The floor is the ceiling. Take more bites at an apple that has a rotten core. I mean, Mark A has all the answers plus he’s a true blue representative of what residents in WI think and believe. I mean, just ask him!
The Brewers have offensive talent coming up but the problem is it doesn't look like they will provide power. Corner outfielders and infielders are power positions and I don't see that in the pipeline. Yelich, Frelick, Mitchell, and Perkins are really contact hitters. Can Churio provide the power? Hard to say. Taylor and Wiemer could provide power but right now they are not even full time players. 1B and 3B are wide open with no power source. Black could fill one of those positions but what should we expect from a rookie?
@PackerRick posted:The last Brewers game I went to Ron Guidry was the starting pitcher for the Yankees. LOL.
Last Brewers game I was at in person was August 2011.
The last Bucks game I was at in person was in 1989, the first year the Bradley center opened.
The last Packers game I was at in person was at Ford Field in 2019, but the last game I was at in Lambeau Field was the Lambeau Leap game on December 26, 1993. We had seats behind the visiting teams bench and the White to Butler flip happened very close to us. We could hear the Los Angeles Raiders players talk on the bench and they just wanted to get the F out of Green Bay as it was below zero. You could tell they were beaten before the game even started.
@Tschmack posted:Sorry ammo, but I am going to completely disagree.
It's o.k. to respectfully disagree. I said the starting pitching will need an infusion. But if some of the position players can become better hitters this team will take off. Similar to what we hope happens with the Packers these young guys will all grow together and push each other to improve. I see the glass more than half full, I guess you see it more than half empty. And that is o.k.
@MichiganPacker posted:Last Brewers game I was at in person was August 2011.
The last Bucks game I was at in person was in 1989, the first year the Bradley center opened.
The last Packers game I was at in person was at Ford Field in 2019, but the last game I was at in Lambeau Field was the Lambeau Leap game on December 26, 1995. We had seats behind the visiting teams bench and the White to Butler flip happened very close to us. We could hear the Los Angeles Raiders players talk on the bench and they just wanted to get the F out of Green Bay as it was below zero. You could tell they were beaten before the game even started.
How's this, 1985? I moved from Wisconsin in 1980 but still a homer. https://www.baseball-reference...L/MIL198506070.shtml
A very fair read in my opinion.....let me know if I should paste whole thing because of paywall.....
https://www.jsonline.com/story...or-cubs/71486754007/
OK, so Craig Counsell is the enemy now? The villain?
Is he really?
Here are some reminders, and then, some questions.
Craig Counsell’s love for the Brewers may have begun when his father, John, began working for the team in the 1970s and 1980s, but Counsell’s obsession with the game of baseball is in his DNA. As a teenager he caught the county bus by walking from his home in Whitefish Bay to Bayshore Mall and then riding to Brookfield at night to get in extra hitting at the batting cages at Mike Hegan's Grand Slam. His dream to be a major-leaguer, to live and breathe baseball, was matched by the hours of extra work he would put in to get there........
Counsell says he wanted to reset the pay for all managers. But when the games start and the game is on the line no manager is going to give a rat's ass what he has done. They will try as hard as they can to beat him.
And as for $8 million vs. $5.5 million, how much money does one need? I doubt he will need the extra $2.5 million to live on and to send his kids to college.
Now that we know Mark A offered Craig a contract to make him the highest paid manager in baseball, do we all still think he is cheap and hates Milwaukee?
@ammo posted:Counsell says he wanted to reset the pay for all managers. But when the games start and the game is on the line no manager is going to give a rat's ass what he has done. They will try as hard as they can to beat him.
And as for $8 million vs. $5.5 million, how much money does one need? I doubt he will need the extra $2.5 million to live on and to send his kids to college.
I agree, I didn't think he had much ego. This is the comment I made when it was first posted here. "I never saw this coming, Counsell making a play for fame and money. Two things he already had."
Feel free to try to rationalize Brewers ownership. I won’t.
5.5M doesn’t mean anything if you don’t land him. And I’m not sure Milwaukee had any intention of keeping him.
A lot of people railed on the guy for his playoff failures. Now rail on him for being a greedy traitor. Lol. Whatever makes you sleep easier at night.
Brewers need to tear it down starting with trading Burnes. That’s their model. Just own your business model and quit trying to placate to your most rabid fans and the media. You are a bottom 1/3 tier franchise that will pay based on that. Attanasio would get a lot more respect if he just said it. I think a lot of fans would be fine with it. But quit trying to play buddy buddy.
He’s not fooling anyone. He drones on about loving this state and our people. How about starting with being honest about your intentions? This ain’t California or New York where people peddle in bullshit and shell games.
It’s amazing to me how people want to back the owner no matter what. He’s a carpet bagger. Proceed at your own risk.