Counsell

@Tschmack posted:

This fucking idiot Mark Attanasio “Counsell has lost us and lost our community”

What community is that?  You aren’t from Wisconsin.  Counsell is. You are a goddamn coastal sandbagger.  Know your place you elitist scumbag.  

You bought the team for about 250M.  Latest valuation is about 2B.  Take a 5000% profit and move on.  I don’t need to hear you lecture Counsel as you could have offered him close to what he was worth but like the rest of your cheap ass organization it’s better to deflect instead of just owning what a POS you really are.  

I haven’t gone to a Brewers game in nearly 3 years.   This after going to dozens of games each year previously.  I highly recommend others do the same.  This douchbag doesn’t care about Milwaukee.  So don’t spend the money.  He sure as shit doesn’t.  

I’m sure there’s a south bend, Wisconsin somewhere in the great state of cheese and beer but that’s not the south bend counsell is from. The guy was born near Chicago, went to school near Chicago and has an agent that lives there. This move to the cubs makes sense on a few levels and isn’t necessarily attanasio’s fault.

in reality, Attanasio was shrewd with how he handled this. I’m guessing he got word that going to the cubs was a possibility for counsell months ago. He can’t admit it publicly. Resigning the entire coaching staff and naming counsell’s mentor as the next manager is a chess move.

The issue I have with Mark Attanasio is he wants everyone to love and adore him not unlike Bud Selig.  

It’s also obvious over the last 2 years this owner isn’t willing to spend modestly to get the team to the next level.  

As the owner, that’s his right but then step up and take accountability for how you choose to run your franchise.  Be honest with the fans instead of playing the PR game and throwing guys like Stearns and Burnes and Counsell under the bus for the team coming up short year after year.

The other issue I have is there are plenty of fans that griped about how awful Counsell was in the postseason yet now but all of a sudden he’s being disloyal by going to Chicago.  Uh, OK.  If the Brewers wanted to keep him badly enough, they could have.  But let’s make it about how he’s lost the city and state.  

Given Mark As reluctance to spend money we are entering an interesting period of time because Woodruff moving on (and likely Burnes) means they need some good fortune and lightning to strike with some of these younger guys in order for them to stay relevant.   Trading Burnes now won’t go over well with the fans but if you won’t pony up to keep him you have to do it. The return for a guy with a full season left will be much greater than dealing him at the deadline.

The burnes stuff is a little frustrating.

Not sure how realistic it is for any team, let alone a market like Milwaukee, to keep two allstar closers on their payroll. Hader is a great pitcher but became expendable. Maybe things play out different in the post season had they hung on to him but he was also trending towards becoming unreliable in key situations. That’s a luxury a team like San Diego can roll the dice on but not Milwaukee if you ask me.

The pending stadium renovations certainly haven’t helped attanasio’s ability to go spend on players either. It would have been a really questionable look on his end had he been banging on the drum for the city to pony up for this stadium transformation while he’s out there gambling with his money on players that could make an impact or could fizzle. In other words, I do believe there would have been major questions from some of the voters had Attanasio been spending money on free agents from other teams and pending brewers free agents lIke hader while knocking on lawmakers doors to use their funds to pay for stadium improvements.

@Orlando Wolf posted:

The burnes stuff is a little frustrating.

Not sure how realistic it is for any team, let alone a market like Milwaukee, to keep two allstar closers on their payroll. Hader is a great pitcher but became expendable. Maybe things play out different in the post season had they hung on to him but he was also trending towards becoming unreliable in key situations. That’s a luxury a team like San Diego can roll the dice on but not Milwaukee if you ask me.

The issue with the Hader trade wasn't that he was traded before hitting free agency. You obviously have to do that if you are a small market team. The issue was that they traded him in the middle of a pennant race while they were leading the division and got nothing in return to help them that year when he still had another full season of arbitration control. If they would have traded him for a power hitter to improve the lineup that would have been fine. Instead, they traded him for two guys they didn't resign (Rogers and Lamet) and two prospects (Ruiz and Gasser). Ruiz' ceiling is probably a Pat Listach type after another 2-3 years in the majors. Gasser looked good in Triple A and will probably be in the rotation. If Gasser works out, it goes down as an OK trade (I'm not considering they got Contreras for Ruiz which they didn't know would happen at that point).

So, they waived the white flag while leading the division by trading a key guy to have a better rotation in 2024 when they are likely not going to be competitive when they could have gotten similar return by just waiting until the offseason.

@Orlando Wolf posted:

The burnes stuff is a little frustrating.

Not sure how realistic it is for any team, let alone a market like Milwaukee, to keep two allstar closers on their payroll. Hader is a great pitcher but became expendable. Maybe things play out different in the post season had they hung on to him but he was also trending towards becoming unreliable in key situations. That’s a luxury a team like San Diego can roll the dice on but not Milwaukee if you ask me.

Aaron Nola just got 7 years and over 170 million guaranteed. Burnes is better and younger. They have to trade him this off-season. You can't go into the year, get to the trade deadline, somehow end up in contention for a playoff berth, and then trade him off for prospects at that point. That would look terrible.

Plus, you'll get more for him now and turbocharge the rebuild now rather than in 2025.

I think the Brewers panicked a bit in the Hader trade. He was getting lit up and the suitors were running for the hills. And he was terrible when he first got to SD. They didn't get close to what they should have for him because it was basically 2 prospect that weren't that high. If I remember the Padres traded their best prospects already, maybe for Soto.

Moving Ruiz and getting Contreras was the heist of the century. Ruiz is considered one of the worst defensive players in MLB and he had no future with the Brewers with their best prospects being in the OF.

If the Brewers trade Burnes now a team will make the deal knowing they can sign him. If they wait until mid season it's almost assured Burnes will become a FA rather than sign with a team that trades for him which lessens his trade value.

So I agree, now is the time to trade him and maximize the return.

Regardless of how erratic hader was that year in mke and what they got in return for him plus the fact that Ruiz was a big piece in the Contreras deal, I’m not following how this falls on Attanasio? Was there a report out that he forced Stearns to trade hader?

No report that I have seen but I can’t imagine him hearing about it on X.  He had to be told it was coming. Not saying he ordered the trade just that he could have stopped it.  

@PackerRick posted:

I think the Brewers panicked a bit in the Hader trade. He was getting lit up and the suitors were running for the hills. And he was terrible when he first got to SD. They didn't get close to what they should have for him because it was basically 2 prospect that weren't that high. If I remember the Padres traded their best prospects already, maybe for Soto.

Moving Ruiz and getting Contreras was the heist of the century. Ruiz is considered one of the worst defensive players in MLB and he had no future with the Brewers with their best prospects being in the OF.

He was likely struggling because his wife was enduring a high-risk pregnancy. She then give birth 5-6 weeks early and he has a new baby in the NICU. Then, with a wife who just had a difficult pregnancy and a 1-month old infant, he gets traded thousands of miles away. I think he was understandably overwhelmed with the situation.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/21/...nancy-complications/

Do you honestly think Stearns just made that move (Hader) without at least consulting with Mark A?  I mean, it’s convenient now to blame that on Stearns but there is no way that deal is made without Attanasio’s knowledge and consent.

The simple fact is they didn’t want to pay 15M in last arbitration year (2023 season) so they dealt him at the deadline.  In retrospect, it was a disaster both in terms of clubhouse impact and performance on the field notwithstanding the fact they didn’t add offense in return.

We can play conspiracy theory but that move likely spelled the end of Stearns and Counsell in Milwaukee.  The fact they didn’t make a strong move to bolster the roster at this years deadline likely set wheels in motion for a complete rebuild starting this year.  The part they didn’t expect was Woodruff getting hurt but it just accelerates the process.  Burnes will be gone soon enough and hopefully they get a much better return than they did with Hader.  

I do think the Hader trade was the end of Stearns in MILW. Stearns took the hit in the media for the trade but the timing very likely could have been forced by Attanasio. And I don't think he liked that. Attanasio was probably afraid Hader would continue falling apart in the 2nd half of the season and his trade value would be even less than they received.

I agree, no way that trade is made without either running it by Attanasio or even forced by Attanasio.

Looking back, if the intent was not to pay Hader in his last year of arbitration they should have traded him before the 2022 season instead of the deadline.  

I don’t think Mark A anticipated the team would tank nor did they expect such an overwhelming negative response from players and fans so it was easy to place the blame on Stearns.  I’m sure it frustrated and annoyed the shit out of Counsell because this was a team in first place and now he’s got to deal with all of it.  

Hader actually recovered from and pitched relatively well later in the season and playoffs.  

The problem with trading a guy like Hader when you're in a playoff hunt is whatever you get back has to help fill that void. Obviously Rodgers wasn't that guy and the two prospect don't provide immediate help. So the trade just made the Brewers worse.

@Pikes Peak posted:

No report that I have seen but I can’t imagine him hearing about it on X.  He had to be told it was coming. Not saying he ordered the trade just that he could have stopped it.  

A meddling owner putting his foot down isn’t good for biz if you ask me.

@PackerRick posted:

The problem with trading a guy like Hader when you're in a playoff hunt is whatever you get back has to help fill that void. Obviously Rodgers wasn't that guy and the two prospect don't provide immediate help. So the trade just made the Brewers worse.

Hader was erratic that season. Not convinced it made them worse.

@Orlando Wolf posted:

Hader was erratic that season. Not convinced it made them worse.

Hader had 3 blow up games after the trade but after 8/31 his ERA was 0.79. Rogers was 6.23 after 8/31.

Fair point. Just not sure that success would have happened in Milwaukee based on his downward spiral that season.

Overall, without making that deal, the brewers most likely are without Contreras and payamps.

Dealing in hypotheticals if hader would have had success staying with brewers or if the Padres give up the same haul in the offseason.

I agree the Brewers made out in the trade ending up with Contreras but that's a separate issue. Landing a catcher, of all positions, who will hold down the position for 10 years is the steal of the century and incredibly fortunate.

But I think the timing and return for Hader was a bit short. One guy was immediately released because there was no spot on the 40 man roster thanks to the Bush trade the next day. Rogers was shaky and Ruiz didn't fit in with all of the OF talent the Brewers had in the high minors. Gasser could be the one guy they got from the Padres that contributes to the Brewers.

JSO reporting Craig Counsell's mother has passed away at age 79.

https://www.jsonline.com/story...s-at-79/72598863007/