Edger Bennet new OC, Clements Assoc HC & will call plays

GD in game day thread: "There wasn't anyone who thought turning the O over to Clements was a bad idea, don't pretend otherwise is true."

Reread page one of this thread….

At least by a qualitatively standard, the special teams are better this year. Hard to tell if that's addition by subtraction with the loss of Slocum or more influence by McCarthy. However, the loss of MM as a play caller is a much bigger negative than the positive changes on special teams. I thought the article today from Andy Benoit at si.com really captured this. It's a good read and I've highlighted a couple of passages below as well. 

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/1...carthy-aaron-rodgers

"McCarthy’s impact was evident from the outset. On second-and-six on Green Bay’s second drive, he called an off-tackle split-zone run for Eddie Lacy out of a two-back set with Randall Cobb motioning to an offset wing position. Lacy’s run gained 18 yards. Two plays later, on second-and-eight, the Packers showed the exact same formation (including Cobb’s motion) and did play-action off the same run look, this time with James Starks. The play was designed to hit Cobb on a rollout in the flat; after some hesitation, Rodgers did, for four yards. It wasn’t a big gain, but the concept was what’s important. McCarthy was “building offense”—calling plays that worked off previous plays and that set up future plays. It’s what good offenses do and, frankly, it wasn’t common enough under Clements, where the Packers seemed to run one isolated play after another."

"As the game progressed and Dallas expanded its coverages, Cobb moved around, including into the backfield, where he got meaningful touches. This has been a Packers staple in 2015, though McCarthy amplified the approach by using it on successive possessions, with Cobb being the focal point in route combinations. Cobb also got three carries. The mere threat alone that he poses makes the backfield gambit worthwhile. Case in point: James Starks’s 13-yard touchdown catch-and-run was aided by a misdirection design that began with a fake handoff to Cobb."

Not understanding something = bad idea.

Rockin' Robin posted:

I don't understand this move at all. If you had to make a prioritized list of where coaching changes should be made, it was: 1) Special Teams; 2) Defense; and distant 3) offense.

 

Special teams apparently will just go to an unproven assistant…that's not the change many were looking for.

Radio silence so far on a defense that annually comes up small in the clutch.

 

Meanwhile, MM is apparently willing to make significant changes to an offense that is coming of an incredible year. While injecting some new blood into play calling may make some sense, what has Clements done to inspire confidence in that front? 

From the first page. So yes, there were people questioning this move from the get go. Packer Update certainly did.

But even if you liked the change at first, many people realized six weeks ago this wasn't working out. MM and the fans that support any/all moves were among the last to know.

Nothing in your post from page 1 indicates you didn't like it, you just didn't understand it.

No one is surprised McCarthy took as long as he did to take back control.

MM always seems to give his guy the benefit of the doubt. It also might have something to do with MM trying to give Clements enough time to "mature".

I think that the way to do this would have been to give Clements a game or two in the previous season to see if he had the knack for calling a good game. Maybe he did that, but I didn't hear that.

MM obviously has more of a feel for how he wants to call and build upon what he has called in previous games or been calling in that game. It might not be the most complex system, but he has a vision that seems to have been missing. The difference between the two play callers was obvious to the naked eye.

MM just overreacted to the Seattle choke and made a change that in retrospect was ill-advised. Probably should have pulled the plug earlier but he's got a stubborn streak and not really a surprise that he didn't.

Bottom line is McCarthy made the change.  I think it was perfect timing.  The Packers can still end up 12-4.  That is a pretty good record.  No one was complaining when they were 6-0.  They started faltering after that.  McCarthy then waited 6 games and made the change.  Sometimes a knee jerk reaction causes more harm than good.  I think he needed those 6 games to make the right decision.  Good job by McCarthy.

MM certainly gave Clements the benefit of the doubt, and I believe Clements calls the plays in preseason, so he had some feel for whether Clements could do it or not.

MM made the change after a win (an improbable one, nonetheless), which just shows how methodical and non-overreactive he is.  I think he's seen that the defense is showing enough over the last several weeks that it is good enough and improving moving toward the post-season, but the O was not.  It's where his focus needs to be now

Grave Digger posted:

 I think it's ridiculous for people to pretend like they knew all along that this was a bad move. 

And I think it's ridiculous for people to pretend that everyone was in favor of this move when they were just confronted with evidence to the contrary.

This may be 20-20 hindsight to you and some others here, but people definitely questioned this move at the time. I know I did (and just showed you a quote). I know Packer Update did too…I'm sure we can find some quotes from that site if we bothered.

And of course, you "give him credit" for pulling the trigger now because, let's be honest here, when was the last time you didn't give him credit for anything? If you defend Capers for five years and counting you're going to give MM credit for making an obvious decision a month too late. 

Hungry5, you can play whatever semantics games you want, but it's absolutely clear from my posts back in February that I questioned the judgement of this move at the time. Responses to my original post pushed back on how can MM delegating be "a bad thing", so yes, people correctly interpreted my comments at the time as a criticism. 

Packer fans are a spoiled bunch.  It doesn't always go perfectly.  When you realize that you will be able to enjoy things better. 

Grave Digger posted:

Oh I'm sorry I don't constantly question the judgement of a coach with 103 wins, a .659 winning %, 3 NFCC appearances, and a SB win. That winning % is second only to Bill Belichick among active coaches (and 15th best in NFL history and 13th among coaches with over 100 wins). So forgive me if I look at take his entire body of work into account rather than judging his worthiness on a game by game basis. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. Look around the league and get some perspective on how lucky GB is.

Total strawman.

This isn't about "constantly questioning" MM. I think MM is a good man and a good offensive mind (heck, I didn't want him to step aside as OC!). I think he's been loyal to this organization, unlike guys like Favre and Holmgren, and I appreciate how he doesn't interfere with TT.

But he's not perfect. Being a fan doesn't mean you have to agree with every one of his decisions. And the evidence has shown he made a bad one in February and exacerbated it by not making changes earlier. Period.

No one is asking you to change your overall view on MM. But please stop dismissing the criticism of these moves as hindsight (at best) and lack of fandom (at worst).

Rockin' Robin posted:

Rockin' Robin posted:

I don't understand this move at all. If you had to make a prioritized list of where coaching changes should be made, it was: 1) Special Teams; 2) Defense; and distant 3) offense.

 

Special teams apparently will just go to an unproven assistant…that's not the change many were looking for.

Radio silence so far on a defense that annually comes up small in the clutch.

 

Meanwhile, MM is apparently willing to make significant changes to an offense that is coming of an incredible year. While injecting some new blood into play calling may make some sense, what has Clements done to inspire confidence in that front? 

From the first page. So yes, there were people questioning this move from the get go. Packer Update certainly did.

But even if you liked the change at first, many people realized six weeks ago this wasn't working out. MM and the fans that support any/all moves were among the last to know.

 

So MM handing over playcalling so he could focus on all aspects of the game isn't addressing defense and ST, which has played much better this year?  

Nobody could've predicted that Clements is so incapable that this freakin' hot rod of an offense  would completely collapse just because MM added focus to the areas you said he was ignoring.  

But I like the "I told you so" bitch posting.  Good stuff.

Henry posted:

But I like the "I told you so" bitch posting.  Good stuff.

 

The "I told you so" is 100% a response to someone posting: "There wasn't anyone who thought turning the O over to Clements was a bad idea, don't pretend otherwise is true." It's frustrating to read something like that when you know you posted exactly that sentiment 9 months earlier. But whatever…let's move on.

Bottom line…the move didn't work out but he made the change back eventually. There is enough time to turn this around, and no one in the NFC scares me, including the 13-0 Panthers. 

Troy posted:

No one was complaining when they were 6-0.  They started faltering after that. 

Actually, they started having offensive woes back to game #4 @SFO.

Not pretending at all.  I don't think your take about MM handing over OC duties was bad, it's totally logical.  But your initial post was complaining about not addressing defense and ST, which is exactly why MM ceded the duties in the first place.  So that's a big reason why people questioned your take.  It comes off more as you're saying defense and ST aren't being addressed.  

NOBODY could've predicted this ridiculously good offense would do a complete face plant in such a dramatic fashion.

2nd half of the Chiefs game to my eye was when things changed.  

I give MM a lot of credit for making this move. They were likely going to make the playoffs even if he didn't take over play calling and you could imagine Clements arguing that he was hamstrung by losing Nelson and having Lacy (by his own admission) being a little lax in his attitude. Tom Clements future as an NFL OC or head coach is now done (if he ever had one). Feeling like you had to do this to a guy who's worked for you for 10 years had to be incredibly difficult. It's he equivalent of the Ray Rhodes firing by Ron Wolf. Rhodes was 8-8 in a year that Favre played with an injured thumb for the entire year. Ray Rhodes was never a head coach again.

Contrast that with Mike Sherman keeping BJ Sander around for 2 years when it was clear he couldn't kick, or TT sticking with AJ Hawk and Brad Jones for several years too many.

Admitting you made a mistake is never easy. MM did and that says a lot.

Hungry5 posted:

Troy posted:

No one was complaining when they were 6-0.  They started faltering after that. 

Actually, they started having offensive woes back to game #4 @SFO.

Yeah, but they still won.  While winning I wouldn't have thought to make any major changes either.  Especially, when the jury was still out on ST and defensive improvement.