Fire Campen.....today. Offensive line has not been good since he has taken over, discuss.
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Agree.
We need to fire anybody who did not perform well last night.
That's why "we're" fans and "they" make a living at pro football.
I think a public execution of Campen would please many.
We need to fire anybody who did not perform well last night.
That's why "we're" fans and "they" make a living at pro football.
I think a public execution of Campen would please many.
Reporter: How do you feel about your team's execution?
John McKay: I'm in favor of it.
John McKay: I'm in favor of it.
I judge my coaches by their facial expressions on the sidelines
This wasn't a joke post. Most here are blaming our players, I am primarily blaming Campen as he is the "offensive line coach"
Well he didn't dislocate Buluga's hip, badly break Sherrod's leg, sign a clearly spent Jeff Saturday, or make the decision to go with 7 OL.
All the above play huge roles on why the OL looks as it does. Bear fans want to run Mike Tice out a rail but too fact is there like here when you have a makeshift OL there is only so much you can do.
Not saying Campen is stellar by any means but EDS AND Lang are also playing out of position and there is next to nothing left in terms of quality OL in the cupboard.
Draft a real center. Find a real LT to back up or at least compete with NewHouse and get guys back healthy ...2013 likely looks far better and that's even with Campen staying.
All the above play huge roles on why the OL looks as it does. Bear fans want to run Mike Tice out a rail but too fact is there like here when you have a makeshift OL there is only so much you can do.
Not saying Campen is stellar by any means but EDS AND Lang are also playing out of position and there is next to nothing left in terms of quality OL in the cupboard.
Draft a real center. Find a real LT to back up or at least compete with NewHouse and get guys back healthy ...2013 likely looks far better and that's even with Campen staying.
I am by no means absolving Campen from blame here, but....
- Our LT is average
- Our RT is out for the year and has been replaced by a guard
- Our C has seen better days, to put it kindly
- Sherrod is still not back from a serious leg injury
Even without the above, the OLine was an above average group at best when the season started.
- Our LT is average
- Our RT is out for the year and has been replaced by a guard
- Our C has seen better days, to put it kindly
- Sherrod is still not back from a serious leg injury
Even without the above, the OLine was an above average group at best when the season started.
Rong. It's McCarthy's fault for having a mustache, and if that wasn't bad enough, Don Campers who has made our defenses worse every year is still our DC. We need to hire the jeenyous Ed Donatell back and then we'll make the old Baltimore and Tampa Bay defenses look like a bunch of pussahs.
quote:Originally posted by StarrToDowler:
I don't think he's available right now.
quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
I say they should also get rid of Thompson for not providing the coaches with more OL talent. Clearly the Packers OL getting beat up last night is a coaching and GM problem.
I couldn't agree more. Isn't Scott Piola supposed to be getting fired? He used to work under Belichek, so I bet he's good.
It is likely next year the NFL will not allow little or any below the waist blocking. (Crack backs) That changes everything, how the O-Linemen coach their players will change drastically. If I was MM I would want to hear from Campen how he was going to adopt to the upcoming changes as soon as the season was over before I did anything.
quote:I judge my coaches by their facial expressions on the sidelines
Oshbaul for head coach and Boris for Commissioner.
Campen can't make chicken salad out of chicken chit.
2 things about Campen:
1. These aren't 19 year old college football players that feed off the energy of their coach, they are professional athletes and none of them are rookies. They shouldn't need a coach to get them to play well, the money should motivate them to play well. The coach is there for preparation and evaluating personnel. I find it hard to believe McCarthy would allow his OL or any group to come into a game completely unprepared, so I think the preparation is there. Aside from the Chase Blackburn sack that EDS completely missed, I would say they were prepared for everything the Giants threw at them.
2. As far as personnel, you can't blame Campen for putting an average product on the field when he's given an average product to work with. This idea that the OL coach "coaches up" the players or teaches them some new technique that changes their game is a joke. Yeah they tweak their game a little, working on little technique things and making sure they aren't getting sloppy, but a player in the NFL isn't bad because his coach didn't tell him how to be an OLineman. They have been playing football since 3rd grade, they know how play on the OL.
Ultimately the buck stops with Ted Thompson when it comes to personnel on the field. You give him an average LT, a below average LG, a below average C, a good RG, and a good LG playing RT with undrafted rookies backing everyone up and there's nothing Campen can do about that. Period.
So no, firing Campen won't do anything except cause more problems. You're forcing your Asst. OLine coach to take on sole responsibility, you're forcing your HC and OC to divert attention from other areas to help with the OL, and all the while you're players aren't getting any better.
1. These aren't 19 year old college football players that feed off the energy of their coach, they are professional athletes and none of them are rookies. They shouldn't need a coach to get them to play well, the money should motivate them to play well. The coach is there for preparation and evaluating personnel. I find it hard to believe McCarthy would allow his OL or any group to come into a game completely unprepared, so I think the preparation is there. Aside from the Chase Blackburn sack that EDS completely missed, I would say they were prepared for everything the Giants threw at them.
2. As far as personnel, you can't blame Campen for putting an average product on the field when he's given an average product to work with. This idea that the OL coach "coaches up" the players or teaches them some new technique that changes their game is a joke. Yeah they tweak their game a little, working on little technique things and making sure they aren't getting sloppy, but a player in the NFL isn't bad because his coach didn't tell him how to be an OLineman. They have been playing football since 3rd grade, they know how play on the OL.
Ultimately the buck stops with Ted Thompson when it comes to personnel on the field. You give him an average LT, a below average LG, a below average C, a good RG, and a good LG playing RT with undrafted rookies backing everyone up and there's nothing Campen can do about that. Period.
So no, firing Campen won't do anything except cause more problems. You're forcing your Asst. OLine coach to take on sole responsibility, you're forcing your HC and OC to divert attention from other areas to help with the OL, and all the while you're players aren't getting any better.
We gambled that we could get by with eight o-linemen, and kept six WR's and four (now five) TE's. We went into the season without a legitimate backup at tackle, and with Bulaga going out the musical chair game has weakened the whole line further.
Maybe there weren't any quality veteran tackles to be had, but we certainly didn't try very hard to bring anybody to camp to try out at that position. Bottom line is that the decision was made by TT and MM to invest in the skill positions this year on offense, and hope the five o-line starters made it through the whole season. Real improvement is only going to come next year with new draft picks, because clearly TT doesn't believe in paying for high priced veterans.
Maybe there weren't any quality veteran tackles to be had, but we certainly didn't try very hard to bring anybody to camp to try out at that position. Bottom line is that the decision was made by TT and MM to invest in the skill positions this year on offense, and hope the five o-line starters made it through the whole season. Real improvement is only going to come next year with new draft picks, because clearly TT doesn't believe in paying for high priced veterans.
Oh yes, my favorite topic. Campen is at a disadvantage with his personnel, but shouldn't a good offensive line coach get his players to overachieve? I've never seen that from Campen, but I will freely admit he has average talent to work with. Offensive line has never been one of Ted's stronger positions.
To Ted's credit, he's tried. Both 1st round draft picks at tackle are out (Sherrod and Bulaga). He's drafted a slew of guys that haven't worked out---Barbre, Giacommini, Meredith, Moll,Coston, Whitticker, and a couple of guys that were serviceable and moved on--Spitz and Colledge. You can fault him for waiting until the later rounds for many of these picks, but he apparently believes that you can get better quality at other positions in early rounds.
A 24 year old multimillionaire is going to do whatever he wants regardless of what the coach says or does. I guarantee Campen is working to improve their technique and getting them prepared for the next team, the rest is up to the player. He needs to buy into the technique, he needs to buy into the S&C program, and he needs to execute on gameday. Plain and simple. Like I said, these aren't 19 year old college kids that feed of their coach's energy, they are professionals and when it comes to execution the blame is on them.
Now if the Packers were dumbfounded by the exotic blitzes the other team was doing or it was some other issue of preparation, then it's Campen's fault. That didn't happen against the Giants. JPP whooped Lang, not Campen's fault. EDS whiffed on picking up the blitzing LB, not Campen's fault. Newhouse got whooped by Umenyiora, not Campen's fault.
Now if the Packers were dumbfounded by the exotic blitzes the other team was doing or it was some other issue of preparation, then it's Campen's fault. That didn't happen against the Giants. JPP whooped Lang, not Campen's fault. EDS whiffed on picking up the blitzing LB, not Campen's fault. Newhouse got whooped by Umenyiora, not Campen's fault.
I'm no apologist for Campen, but he's working with a lot of average and below-average players right now. The greatest offensive line coach in the world would struggle with Newhouse, EDS, Saturday and Lang starting at their current positions.
Most teams are dealing with OLine injuries of some kind at this point in the season.
I remember watching some pregame or postgame show back in the 80's and there was an old coach talking about making adjustments when your QB is getting pressured...and he said:
"If you can't block them with 5...use 6. If you can't block them with 6....use 7. That is the first adjustment you make."
And I remember thinking that that made so much sense to a 10 year old kid, why wouldn't NFL coaches figure that out.
I remember watching some pregame or postgame show back in the 80's and there was an old coach talking about making adjustments when your QB is getting pressured...and he said:
"If you can't block them with 5...use 6. If you can't block them with 6....use 7. That is the first adjustment you make."
And I remember thinking that that made so much sense to a 10 year old kid, why wouldn't NFL coaches figure that out.
Agreed GD, I don't put missed assignments and individuals getting beat up on Campen, but I think it is fair to lay blame on McCarthy as he needs to do a better job (as he said) in putting his offense in a position to succeed.
No one should be surprised that the NYG DL can put pressure on a team with 4... ** edit ** when blocking with 5 (thanks FS)
No one should be surprised that the NYG DL can put pressure on a team with 4... ** edit ** when blocking with 5 (thanks FS)
I don't think it's an issue of McCarthy not knowing or not realizing what to do, I think he's looking at it from a number's standpoint. He only blocks with 5, he can send 5 out on routes and he's banking that 1 of the 5 will get open in time and if not Rodgers will throw it away. Two reasons why that theory was unsuccessful against the Giants:
1. They didn't respect the run enough to not tee off against the pass. They gambled their wide 9's would be able to contain the run even out that far and they were right. It's hard to pass block when you have fast rushers that line up so far outside.
2. Rodgers won't throw it away. Period.
1. They didn't respect the run enough to not tee off against the pass. They gambled their wide 9's would be able to contain the run even out that far and they were right. It's hard to pass block when you have fast rushers that line up so far outside.
2. Rodgers won't throw it away. Period.
Remember back in TC all the talk about how MM installed that 2.5 second "shot clock" that was supposed to teach the QBs to get rid of the ball.
That says two things to me.
1. MM planned on blocking with 5 and getting the ball out fast this season as you suggest.
2. AR has a problem with holding the ball too long and needed a prompt to speed him up.
IMO those two things don't go well together.
That says two things to me.
1. MM planned on blocking with 5 and getting the ball out fast this season as you suggest.
2. AR has a problem with holding the ball too long and needed a prompt to speed him up.
IMO those two things don't go well together.
Yeah we were screaming at the TV every time he was holding the ball so long that he had 2.5 seconds.
quote:Originally posted by Grave Digger:
Ultimately the buck stops with Ted Thompson when it comes to personnel on the field.
Well then, what are we waiting for? Fire Ted Thompson.
The offensive line has sucked for most of McCarthy's time here as coach, but the problem also rests on the fact that Rodgers takes a ton of sacks. It's mostly on him for holding the ball too long, but McCarthy takes some of the blame for calling all of these long developing routes and generally being overly reliant on the passing attack. Clearly the talent level right now is very poor, but I'd think if you have a chance to replace Campen with someone better, it would be foolish not to. First and foremost they need to get a big, athletic center in there who can be a rock for 12 years. Not going into the season with the bare minimum number of offensive linemen and this cutesy musical chairs approach toward backups to save a few roster spots (just to waste these spots on five TEs and a sixth WR) would be even better. They tried to be cheap and economical with the OL in order to keep a bunch of luxury WR and TE like Taylor/Williams and Driver/Boykin they don't even need, and it came back to bite them in the ass in a big way. What happened with this offensive roster is the equivalent of a 7 year old who was able to gorge themselves with all of the ice cream they wanted (all of his "fun" TEs and WRs) without eating any of the icky vegetables (boring offensive linemen).
quote:Originally posted by FreeSafety:
Remember back in TC all the talk about how MM installed that 2.5 second "shot clock" that was supposed to teach the QBs to get rid of the ball.
That says two things to me.
1. MM planned on blocking with 5 and getting the ball out fast this season as you suggest.
2. AR has a problem with holding the ball too long and needed a prompt to speed him up.
IMO those two things don't go well together.
Agreed, when this doesn't work. When it works, it is near impossible to stop. SCORE LOTS OF POINTS!!!
What I saw last night was AR not seeing an open receiver with his first read, and then wondering which DL was going to smack him. McCarthy did him no favors...
Rodgers dropped back 33 times last night. 17 times he was sacked, hit, or under duress.
Tough to go through progressions when option 1 isn't available and you're already out of time.
Tough to go through progressions when option 1 isn't available and you're already out of time.
Rodgers didn't play well last night (obviously) He's played better under the same amount of pressure.
There were open receivers last night. He couldn't get the ball there.
Moving right along......Hopefully we can win the next 3
There were open receivers last night. He couldn't get the ball there.
Moving right along......Hopefully we can win the next 3
Nice thread! Some very good opposing view points. Me, I think it is too late in the season to make any major changes. We can only hope the o-line gel some and that we get the injured back. I also think we need more slants and quicker routes to off set the o-line's play; however, we cannot just focus on Cobb - need to spread the ball and AR needs to trust his receivers more - throw the fricken ball.
If Sherrod is able to come back and be effective at RT sometime this year and Lang moves back to LG, I could see things getting better up front. If things stay the same however, this crap will just be repeated in the playoffs.
Not only is Sherrod's leg not completely healed, he won't be ready to play anyhow. This isn't a guy with an enormous amount of experience. He hasn't played football for a long time and any thoughts of him stepping in and fixing a problem is wishful thinking. Maybe next year. Maybe.
Then why did they move him off the PuP instead of just IRing him? Also, why was Lang singing his praises last year just before his injury?
Getting players to "overachieve?" . . . I don't know about that, but a good position coach should ABSOLUTELY get his players to IMPROVE; and that is something that has never happened with James Campen. He was a mediocre lineman for the Packers when he was playing, and he seems to be teaching that same level of mediocrity as a coach.