Giants Pos/Neg Discussion

@Fandame posted:

I want to know who's actually deciding which plays to run. If Rodgers has a run/pass option on every play, then is Rodgers is calling his own number way too often, or is MLF just that boneheaded? No way should a QB be chucking it down the field three times in a row just because the game is tied or the other team scored when there's that much clock left. That smacks of desperation.

Right now, I think Rodgers is running the show much more than we think. MLF is covering so it doesn't look like he's lost control of the team, but it's in Rodgers' hands now.

Hard to know really, but we do know a few things...

Rodgers likes chunk plays that flip the tide of a game and breaks the opponents back. But when your RB's are averaging 4.8 and 5.7 yards per carry and your defense is absolutely gassed, methodically moving the chains is way more important than home run balls, especially when you're not behind.

Rodgers also likes to wait till the play clock is zero to know exactly what the defense will give him, but if every time you run an RPO you pass it when a certain amount of defenders are in the box (and vice versa) now you have a huge tell.  Everyone knows what's coming.

It's hard for me to believe MLF is calling 3 deep passes in a row when the D was just on the field for half of the quarter.  Look at MLF's first year.  Rodgers had a "down" year but he ran MLF's offense, which was a lot of runs, sweeps and motions.  It was very successful.  Hell MLF put in the double back set this year.

Either MLF has fallen too in love with Rodgers, Rodgers has fallen too in love with himself, or defenses are stacking the box daring Rodgers to pass cuz they don't think he has the weapons to convert.  Probably a bit of all of that.

@vitaflo posted:

Hard to know really, but we do know a few things...

Rodgers likes chunk plays that flip the tide of a game and breaks the opponents back. But when your RB's are averaging 4.8 and 5.7 yards per carry and your defense is absolutely gassed, methodically moving the chains is way more important than home run balls, especially when you're not behind.

Rodgers also likes to wait till the play clock is zero to know exactly what the defense will give him, but if every time you run an RPO you pass it when a certain amount of defenders are in the box (and vice versa) now you have a huge tell.  Everyone knows what's coming.

It's hard for me to believe MLF is calling 3 deep passes in a row when the D was just on the field for half of the quarter.  Look at MLF's first year.  Rodgers had a "down" year but he ran MLF's offense, which was a lot of runs, sweeps and motions.  It was very successful.  Hell MLF put in the double back set this year.

Either MLF has fallen too in love with Rodgers, Rodgers has fallen too in love with himself, or defenses are stacking the box daring Rodgers to pass cuz they don't think he has the weapons to convert.  Probably a bit of all of that.

Brady made a HOF career out of sustaining drives with astute playcalling and checkdowns mixed with a capable running game. Most times with no name guys. You'd think this might occur to someone ay 1265 that success is sustainable if you have a core belief in the objectives of the offensive scheme. It's all the more dumbfounding now that Adams is gone. Brady uses the system to execute lower risk drives by choosing lower risk options. He's established it over and over again, and that's why he can choose when to slit your throat with chunk plays. Our HC and QB feel the heat and then abandon the stuff that has been shown to work. While we must consider the strength of the defenses Brady's been coupled with, much of the Pats/Bucs defensive potency is predicated on the fact that Brady regularly complements his defense by moving the chains. I'd argue that the field position battle is unquestionably tied directly to wins and losses. Where GB goes three and out, Brady will at the very least will flip the field. MLF/AR showed their hand and the Giants smelled blood. Gifting those two first down throws came right on the heels of the timeout/sack/no FG. I'm sure Daboll/Martindale were ecstatic once they saw such desperation. 

Heard something that strikes me as both unbelievable and true: best coached phase of the Packers presently appears to be special teams. Quite an indictment of both MLF and Joe Barry.

@vitaflo posted:

It's hard for me to believe MLF is calling 3 deep passes in a row when the D was just on the field for half of the quarter.  Look at MLF's first year.  Rodgers had a "down" year but he ran MLF's offense, which was a lot of runs, sweeps and motions.  It was very successful.  Hell MLF put in the double back set this year.

Both AR & MLF insinuated in their postgame pressers that it was MLF who called those shot plays. AR defended him, saying "I liked all three calls".

Does it really matter who called the plays?  Throw the freakin pass within the same zip code of the receiver and maybe the play would work.

And players and coaches are notorious truth tellers to the press.

@artis posted:

Brady made a HOF career out of sustaining drives with astute playcalling and checkdowns mixed with a capable running game. Most times with no name guys. You'd think this might occur to someone ay 1265 that success is sustainable if you have a core belief in the objectives of the offensive scheme. It's all the more dumbfounding now that Adams is gone. Brady uses the system to execute lower risk drives by choosing lower risk options. He's established it over and over again, and that's why he can choose when to slit your throat with chunk plays. Our HC and QB feel the heat and then abandon the stuff that has been shown to work. While we must consider the strength of the defenses Brady's been coupled with, much of the Pats/Bucs defensive potency is predicated on the fact that Brady regularly complements his defense by moving the chains. I'd argue that the field position battle is unquestionably tied directly to wins and losses. Where GB goes three and out, Brady will at the very least will flip the field. MLF/AR showed their hand and the Giants smelled blood. Gifting those two first down throws came right on the heels of the timeout/sack/no FG. I'm sure Daboll/Martindale were ecstatic once they saw such desperation.

I couldn't help but think of Brady during the game for these same reasons.  Mainly because last week Watson *was* open a lot, Rodgers even said he was, and yet he never threw him the ball.  This week I saw Doubs open a lot too, and while Rodgers took a couple shots (and missed him) he either didn't look his way or just went somewhere else.

I sometimes get the feeling Rodgers only throws to guys who are in the perfect spot in his progression.  If you didn't run the perfect route he's going elsewhere (and then go sand lot)  And of course the rookies are sometimes going to be a little bit off, even if they are open.

And I always got the sense that Brady doesn't give a shit about any of that, if you're open, you're open.  He's going to throw you the ball and expect the WR to make a play even if the route wasn't perfect.

It makes even less sense for Rodgers since he's a guy who can throw off of any platform and doesn't even need his feet to get set.  But there are times I feel like he's so insistent on "perfection" from his receivers that he won't give them any opportunities unless they execute perfectly.

Case in point, has anyone ever asked Brady if he's "on the same page" or "trusts" his receivers?  And yet this is all anyone can talk about with AR.

@vitaflo posted:

Case in point, has anyone ever asked Brady if he's "on the same page" or "trusts" his receivers?  And yet this is all anyone can talk about with AR.

Or Mahomes?

@vitaflo posted:

I couldn't help but think of Brady during the game for these same reasons.  Mainly because last week Watson *was* open a lot, Rodgers even said he was, and yet he never threw him the ball.  This week I saw Doubs open a lot too, and while Rodgers took a couple shots (and missed him) he either didn't look his way or just went somewhere else.

I sometimes get the feeling Rodgers only throws to guys who are in the perfect spot in his progression.  If you didn't run the perfect route he's going elsewhere (and then go sand lot)  And of course the rookies are sometimes going to be a little bit off, even if they are open.

And I always got the sense that Brady doesn't give a shit about any of that, if you're open, you're open.  He's going to throw you the ball and expect the WR to make a play even if the route wasn't perfect.

It makes even less sense for Rodgers since he's a guy who can throw off of any platform and doesn't even need his feet to get set.  But there are times I feel like he's so insistent on "perfection" from his receivers that he won't give them any opportunities unless they execute perfectly.

Case in point, has anyone ever asked Brady if he's "on the same page" or "trusts" his receivers?  And yet this is all anyone can talk about with AR.

Has anyone asked Doubs or Watson if they trust 12?

The struggles on offense were expected.   In fact, the passing game has been a little better than expected. 

What wasn't expected was that we wouldn't commit to the run.   What wasn't expected is that we would be soft as fuck on defense.  Playing a passive scheme all day long with your dogs chained up.

Point being, that can be corrected with coaching.   The question is, will it be?   The next couple weeks are make or break time for MLF.    The problems are obvious, does he have the fortitude to demand change from Barry and himself.

Dungy ripped Arod on NBC's "Football Night in America" last night for missing all those long throws, making poor decisions, etc. Almost Skip Bayless like.

Positive:

No one can say the Packers are peaking too early.

Not sure many thought they would be peaking now. Also, I believe most expected/hoped for a 3-2 start - but losses on the road to MIN & TAM.

The defensive play is most concerning as I expect the offense will find their way... unless Rodger's ability is disappearing before our eyes.

B E A GG RES I VE

Be Agressive, Be-Be Aggressive.

@artis posted:

Brady made a HOF career out of sustaining drives with astute playcalling and checkdowns mixed with a capable running game. Most times with no name guys. You'd think this might occur to someone ay 1265 that success is sustainable if you have a core belief in the objectives of the offensive scheme. It's all the more dumbfounding now that Adams is gone. Brady uses the system to execute lower risk drives by choosing lower risk options. He's established it over and over again, and that's why he can choose when to slit your throat with chunk plays. Our HC and QB feel the heat and then abandon the stuff that has been shown to work. While we must consider the strength of the defenses Brady's been coupled with, much of the Pats/Bucs defensive potency is predicated on the fact that Brady regularly complements his defense by moving the chains. I'd argue that the field position battle is unquestionably tied directly to wins and losses. Where GB goes three and out, Brady will at the very least will flip the field. MLF/AR showed their hand and the Giants smelled blood. Gifting those two first down throws came right on the heels of the timeout/sack/no FG. I'm sure Daboll/Martindale were ecstatic once they saw such desperation.

Brady also made a career of knowing he had a top-tier defense and special teams who could compensate if they didn’t score a lot.

The biggest issue is probably the offensive line. They pass block for shit and run blocking isn’t consistent.

@H5 posted:

Not sure many thought they would be peaking now. Also, I believe most expected/hoped for a 3-2 start - but losses on the road to MIN & TAM.

The defensive play is most concerning as I expect the offense will find their way... unless Rodger's ability is disappearing before our eyes.

B E A GG RES I VE

Be Agressive, Be-Be Aggressive.

https://twitter.com/packerscri...81AaEl8bjtKUHWdiTfRA

The 4th down play, wow this is everything that's wrong with the O.  You know this is an RPO with run-first because the o-line is getting a push downfield not pass setting and Dillon isn't pass blocking.  Meyers destroys his guy, it's basically a walk-in TD for Dillon if Rodgers hands it off, and Dillon only needs 2 yards for a first down anyway.

But Rodgers sees a stacked box so he decides to pass instead.  But watch the blitzers, they don't even hesitate to look for the run because they *know* Rodgers is going to pass instead (because the box was stacked).  Allows the CB to box out Lazard cuz he knows the blizers are gonna get home quickly.

Literal called run play that would have easily gotten us a first down if not a TD and Rodgers nixed it.

@Tschmack posted:

The problem with the NFL is that everything is on tape.  Teams have figured out GBs defense and they’ve figured out MLF and his tendencies.  

Given how done Russ Wilson appears the Packers completely fucked up not trading Rodgers to Denver for multiple 1sts and/or players because I’m not sure this team is much of a threat with or without 12.

I was totally on board for trading AR before the season started.  The logic on both sides (keep AR or trade AR) has been discussed ad nauseum, but the keep AR crowd argued that AR gave us the best shot at winning the SB.  Those of us on the trade AR side were thinking after having the best odds the last two years and not even getting to the SB, that we weren't going to win a SB with AR anyway, so why not trade him, get a bunch of loot, start Love and see what he can do, and if we tanked, so be it.  There were better QB prospect in this year's draft and we could take a shot at one.  Plus, Adams left and that was huge.  But, put together a top five defense, and that's all we need.  Right.  Well, Gutey tried and they're under performing.

There's still a lot of season left, but time to turn this around is running out.  I don't know that the offense is going to get a lot better.  Watkins and Watson can't stay out of the tub, and who knows when Cobb's going to get injured.  Lazard's a good #2 receiver, and Doubs is a promising rookie, but we're lacking a true #1 receiver.  And then there's our useless 3rd round pick Amari.  We have two excellent running backs, but they can't run every down.  Plus Newman shouldn't be playing in the NFL, our TE's are slow as hell and all of a sudden AR can't hit the broad side of a barn - our receiver aren't helping though.  We just don't have the horses.

If we're going to go anywhere this year, it's going to have to come from the defense.  On paper, we should be a top five defense.  So why aren't we and how can we become one?  The horses are there.  The scheme and effort are not.  To me, that's on coaching.  Alexander's comments lately seem to point in that direction as well - he's become the voice of the defense, and it sounds like they're not happy.  Why, I have no idea.  Regardless, it's on the coaches to motivate their players and put them in the best scheme to win.  If a player is not motivated, then bench him.  Clearly, accountability across the board is not coming from the coaches right now.  Can this change without a change of DC?  Because MLF hasn't shown the cajones to make changes to coaching staff.  I guess we'll see.

@"We"-Ka-Bong posted:

It's possible the NFL has figured out the Packer Jet sweep.

There has to be a counter to that play to keep defenses honest.  I know people are pissed 12 threw as much as he did (with a line that could not block), but damn if I wouldn't love a screen here and there

Or some quick slants.

A failure of this organization historically has been they are too patient with coaches and in particular HCs have been slow to cut bait with some of their assistants.  The only exception in the last 40 years was Ron Wolf canning Ray Rhodes after 1 season.  

MM should have been fired after the Seattle playoff debacle.

How many shitty DCs or special teams coaches were allowed to stick around longer than they should?

Joe Barry should be fired today.  

@Harry Manback posted:

Or some quick slants.

Quick slants don't work as well if you don't have a deep threat to keep the safeties honest. The only realistic way to fix this with the talent they currently have is to get Watson healthy and on the field more.

@PackerPatrick posted:

I get that, I really do, but a lot of mistakes were made by the secondary as well. Douglas committed key penalties at bad times. And I thought that Barkley was limited until his run through the secondary. How much of that was Barry’s fault with play calling or by the coverage? I don’t know. We did not expect Jones to be able to run and he did it at key times.

OTOH, how much of what Gray wanted to do was stifled by Barry?  I have no idea, but it starts at the top.  What it looks like to me is players are not being allowed to play to their strengths.  If you want to piss off a defense, which it sounds like maybe they are, limit what they do best.  Don't put them in a position of strength, and lose a game by not being smart or aggressive enough.  From a lot of our perspectives, you have 3 corners who ball man on man, and not so much zone.  So why insist on playing zone?  If you have 3 corners like that, you should be more aggressive up front.  My $.02

@RochNyFan posted:

Watched MLF's presser and he never gets asked tough questions. He constantly spits out the same answers:  "we didn't execute,  we have to get better and it starts with me". I'd  love to hear someone ask "why did your defense not bring pressure or blitz more when the Giants were missing their 2 best receivers,  Jones was gimpy and they were without the NFL's leading rusher for most of the second half? "  Or "your special teams underperformed last year under the direction of a coach to whom you remained loyal, and it cost you an early playoff exit.  Are you disappointed in the defense under Joe Barry, and would you ever consider an in season change?"

If well groomed eyebrows helped win championships, we'd be all set, but I fear MLF shrinks when the spotlights are on.

If it was NY, he'd get those questions.  The whole team gets favorable, soft coverage and they even have their own propoganda machine, packers.com, to help with that.

@vitaflo posted:

https://twitter.com/packerscri...81AaEl8bjtKUHWdiTfRA

The 4th down play, wow this is everything that's wrong with the O.  You know this is an RPO with run-first because the o-line is getting a push downfield not pass setting and Dillon isn't pass blocking.  Meyers destroys his guy, it's basically a walk-in TD for Dillon if Rodgers hands it off, and Dillon only needs 2 yards for a first down anyway.

But Rodgers sees a stacked box so he decides to pass instead.  But watch the blitzers, they don't even hesitate to look for the run because they *know* Rodgers is going to pass instead (because the box was stacked).  Allows the CB to box out Lazard cuz he knows the blizers are gonna get home quickly.

Literal called run play that would have easily gotten us a first down if not a TD and Rodgers nixed it.

Thanks for posting this. Switching out of the run was a brutal mistake, especially since we could get the first down.

@MichiganPacker posted:

Quick slants don't work as well if you don't have a deep threat to keep the safeties honest. The only realistic way to fix this with the talent they currently have is to get Watson healthy and on the field more.

True.  I hope Watson isn't going to end up being ijury prone.  We really need him.  And we need AR to throw the ball to open receivers, no matter who they are.

You have to EARN AR's trust first. Apparently, you don't do that by getting open.

@vitaflo posted:

https://twitter.com/packerscri...81AaEl8bjtKUHWdiTfRA

The 4th down play, wow this is everything that's wrong with the O.  You know this is an RPO with run-first because the o-line is getting a push downfield not pass setting and Dillon isn't pass blocking.  Meyers destroys his guy, it's basically a walk-in TD for Dillon if Rodgers hands it off, and Dillon only needs 2 yards for a first down anyway.

But Rodgers sees a stacked box so he decides to pass instead.  But watch the blitzers, they don't even hesitate to look for the run because they *know* Rodgers is going to pass instead (because the box was stacked).  Allows the CB to box out Lazard cuz he knows the blizers are gonna get home quickly.

Literal called run play that would have easily gotten us a first down if not a TD and Rodgers nixed it.

No way you watch that video and say, "Rodgers is just running the play called on the field". That offensive line is blocking for the run. Idiot QB has other ideas.

@artis posted:

Brady made a HOF career out of sustaining drives with astute playcalling and checkdowns mixed with a capable running game. Most times with no name guys. You'd think this might occur to someone ay 1265 that success is sustainable if you have a core belief in the objectives of the offensive scheme. It's all the more dumbfounding now that Adams is gone. Brady uses the system to execute lower risk drives by choosing lower risk options. He's established it over and over again, and that's why he can choose when to slit your throat with chunk plays. Our HC and QB feel the heat and then abandon the stuff that has been shown to work. While we must consider the strength of the defenses Brady's been coupled with, much of the Pats/Bucs defensive potency is predicated on the fact that Brady regularly complements his defense by moving the chains. I'd argue that the field position battle is unquestionably tied directly to wins and losses. Where GB goes three and out, Brady will at the very least will flip the field. MLF/AR showed their hand and the Giants smelled blood. Gifting those two first down throws came right on the heels of the timeout/sack/no FG. I'm sure Daboll/Martindale were ecstatic once they saw such desperation.

Rodgers is the greatest "thrower" in NFL history, but as a QB i.e. a field general, he pales in comparison to the likes of Brady.

@Tschmack posted:

A failure of this organization historically has been they are too patient with coaches and in particular HCs have been slow to cut bait with some of their assistants.  The only exception in the last 40 years was Ron Wolf canning Ray Rhodes after 1 season.  

MM should have been fired after the Seattle playoff debacle.

How many shitty DCs or special teams coaches were allowed to stick around longer than they should?

Joe Barry should be fired today.  

You forgot to add Ray Rhodes.

@Goalline posted:

Rodgers is the greatest "thrower" in NFL history, but as a QB i.e. a field general, he pales in comparison to the likes of Brady.

I like that assessment

Under 10.5 wins. Mark it down! 😃

@Goalline posted:

Rodgers is the greatest "thrower" in NFL history, but as a QB i.e. a field general, he pales in comparison to the likes of Brady.

He is not as good as Brady or Montana in that regard, but I wouldn’t make it sound like he is dumb in terms of being a field general

@YATittle posted:

Thanks for posting this. Switching out of the run was a brutal mistake, especially since we could get the first down.

Doubs was also wide open coming across the other side of the formation. It was easily a first down and likely a TD.

@vitaflo posted:

https://twitter.com/packerscri...81AaEl8bjtKUHWdiTfRA

Yes, the line was blocking for a run on that fourth-down play, and it would have worked for at least a first down if Rodgers hadn't gone into "I'm going to take it in my own hands" mode. Even if the pass would have been complete, it probably would have been flagged for illegal OL down the field. And watch the OL's reaction after the play: they turn and look around like, "What the hell was that?" They had to have been a little pissed, especially Meyers as he was blocking as if his next contract depended on that one play. If Rodgers hands that off, Dillon follows Meyers right into the EZ.

I'll bet Rodgers tried one of his "I'll make secret eye contact with the WR and catch everyone else off-guard" plays. He's got to realize he's not always the smertest guy in the stadium.

@Fandame posted:

Yes, the line was blocking for a run on that fourth-down play, and it would have worked for at least a first down if Rodgers hadn't gone into "I'm going to take it in my own hands" mode. Even if the pass would have been complete, it probably would have been flagged for illegal OL down the field. And watch the OL's reaction after the play: they turn and look around like, "What the hell was that?" They had to have been a little pissed, especially Meyers as he was blocking as if his next contract depended on that one play. If Rodgers hands that off, Dillon follows Meyers right into the EZ.

I'll bet Rodgers tried one of his "I'll make secret eye contact with the WR and catch everyone else off-guard" plays. He's got to realize he's not always the smertest guy in the stadium.

He grabbed the right shoulder of his jersey. Yikes.

From CBS Sports:

New York beat Green Bay despite having three healthy receivers on the active roster, a poor offensive line outside of Andrew Thomas, and a banged-up Daniel Jones. They also were down their top two edge rushers at the beginning of the year and two of their top four cornerbacks.

Our defense literally allows anyone to move the ball down the field.   Sooner or later I hope the players get pissed and demand more aggressive schemes.  Just look at the Giants on 3rd and 4th downs at the end to see what aggressiveness can do.

Playing to win instead of playing not to lose?

Who knew?

@D J posted:

Ask tough questions and get banned from future pressers. That is where things are at.

Fake news.

@vitaflo posted:

The 4th down play, wow this is everything that's wrong with the O.

Rodgers said he liked the call and he was correct- what was bad was his choice.

@Goalline posted:

No way you watch that video and say, "Rodgers is just running the play called on the field". That offensive line is blocking for the run. Idiot QB has other ideas.

If the pass was completed the "Laundry " would have surely come out for illegal man down field. Meyers was in the secondary!

Ooh, good observation.

@Cheezers posted:

From CBS Sports:

New York beat Green Bay despite having three healthy receivers on the active roster, a poor offensive line outside of Andrew Thomas, and a banged-up Daniel Jones. They also were down their top two edge rushers at the beginning of the year and two of their top four cornerbacks.

Our defense literally allows anyone to move the ball down the field.   Sooner or later I hope the players get pissed and demand more aggressive schemes.  Just look at the Giants on 3rd and 4th downs at the end to see what aggressiveness can do.

Jaire is already pushing for it.