Honestly. Just wanted to get everyone’s thoughts. 

Hes clearly a 1st ballot entry. But I’m looking for the outliers. Any dissension here? 

Its a few years away. Let’s get this out of the way now.

Original Post

Chilijon, my first question is have you been drinking heavily today?

The second question is will some nimrod HOF voter doesn't vote for him and he isn't an unanimous selection?

All kidding aside can you imagine how highly regarded AR would be if he something resembling a defense the majority of his career with the Packers?

The second question is will some nimrod HOF voter doesn't vote for him and he isn't an unanimous selection?

Does the NFL even reveal whether inductees were unanimous or not?  This isn't the self-righteous baseball writers we're talking about.

If he's not a first ballot HOFer, the HOF loses any semblance of credibility. 

The more nuanced question is where he ranks all time. He's clearly top 10-20 all time, but how high within that ranking. 

NFL.com ran a story earlier this year that has him at #10 all time. Here's the link followed by the rankings. 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/...tom-brady-leads-list

Starting in order from 1 to 25: Brady, Montana, Manning, Unitas, Otto Graham, Brees, Marino, Staubach, Elway, RODGERS, Sammy Baugh, Favre, Starr, Aikman, Steve Young, Sid Luckman, Bradshaw, Russell Wilson, Big Ben, Warner, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Tarkenton, Len Dawson, Norm Van Brocklin

I don't know how to judge Otto Graham, Baugh, Luckman, and Van Brocklin relative to the Super Bowl era.  Taking them out makes Rodgers 9th all time. 

Of the other guys in front of him, I think the only slam dunks for being better than Rodgers are Brady and Manning. Montana was great and probably ranks higher, but he was also throwing to the best WR in NFL history for most of his career and the 49ers were loaded with future HOFers. Staubach is WAY, WAY too high (for the same reason Aikman is too high) - he played for the Cowboys. 

Brees, Marino, and Rodgers are interesting to compare. They basically all put up superstar statistics but played for teams that resulting in them only getting 1 (or 0 for Marino) titles often through no fault of their own. Elway is a tough guy to rank because he threw a ton of interceptions, but often elevated some pretty average Bronco teams early his career to deep playoff runs with not a ton of other talent. 

The other way to look at this list is that if you substituted Rodgers for any of these other guys on their team(s) how would that affect the outcomes? I'd argue if you substituted Rodgers (or Marino for that matter) in place of Brady, Montana, or Manning (who all have more rings) that Rodgers and Marino win just as many rings as those 3. x

Brady has played for the best coach of all time his entire career and might have been throwing to the best TE of all time. He also had Randy Moss for 3 years. Montana obviously had Jerry Rice and the most innovative offensive coach in history (Bill Walsh), and you could argue that Montana wasn't even clearly the best QB on his team from 1987-1991 when Young was sitting behind him. Payton Manning had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne (both borderline HOF candidates) to throw to for most of his Colt career. Elway was throwing to a HOF TE in Shannon Sharpe for many years. 

Who is best offensive player that Rodgers played with during his career? Jordy Nelson? Greg Jennings? Both were great players in their time, but neither one is going to be a HOFer. Josh Sitton and Bahktiari could be in the conversation at OL at some point down the road, but that's about it. Favre at least had Sterling Sharpe for a few years.

Having said all that, the formula for titles is usually having a HOF QB and a difference maker on defense that makes plays that turn games. In the end, what got Rodgers and Favre their Super Bowls was having two of the best defensive players in history to complement them (Reggie and Woodson). Those type of guys are very rare, but if the defense had a guy at Woodson's 2008-2010 level for the past 8 years, some of the playoff losses don't happen. That's the case for almost the great QBs that get rings - Ronnie Lott (Montana), Deion Sanders (Young and Aikman), Charles Haley (Montana and Aikman); Revis, Ty Law, Richard Seymour (various times for Brady); Randy White, Too Tall Jones, Charlie Waters (Staubach); about 5 HOFers on defense (Bradshaw), Von Miller (Manning- Broncos); Dwight Freeney (Manning - Colts).

 

 

All true, in the end he is in the conversation as to rankings. Front offices, injuries, coaches and teammates are just as important as individual physical skills when rankings are compiled. For instance, is Bart (my fav Packer) one of the top 10 physically gifted QBs of all time? Probably not, but add in his coaches, his teammates and his unparalleled mental approach and he is IMO top 10.  

My list for what it is worth....Brady, Montana,P Manning , Elway, Marino, AR, Brees, #4, Bart and Young.  Not necessarily in that order. And since 3 of these guys are still playing it's tough to permantly assess where they end up.  All three are currently on good teams and may win more.

 

 

 

And if anyone reads the REAL news for what kind of player he is off the field he will eventually have the biggest statue in front of Lambeau. . Lucas had a great story about him in teh State Journal that shows how special he is. Favre went out of his way to ignore young players. Here is a guy that was a nobody that AR single out and encouraged.

 https://madison.com/wsj/sports...51-cc67828d3b4e.html

I think the only person in this thread that questions whether or not AR is a first ballot HOF player is the OP himself...  

I've been saying AR needs to play better since the beginning of the season... The past few years haven't been great.  That said, there is zero doubt that AR is a lock for the HOF even if his career ended tomorrow.

Boris posted:

There ain't no way Brady is #1 in this discussion. I don't GAF how many rings those cheating bastards win either. Top 10 sure but he ain't #1.

It's no easy answer, as I think in the last 20 years, Brady has had more help around him than anyone else, at least defensively and special teams wise.  That said, when he's been needed to step up his game or come up with a perfect throw, the guy does it time and time again.  That's what makes me want to put him at the top. 

Where you can argue against Brady is that in just the little bit of time that he hasn't been out there playing, other journeyman type QBs have done well in his place (i.e. Matt Cassell, Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garoppolo). 

I just look at all that Brady has accomplished and I have to put him at the top, at least of the 42 years I've been watching the NFL.

Otto Graham is the most interesting of all the "old" guys who played long before I started watching.  When you watch film of him, he looked like he was a great athlete that could have played in any era.  I think had he played in modern times, he could be just about as good as anyone. 

Floridarob posted:

And if anyone reads the REAL news for what kind of player he is off the field he will eventually have the biggest statue in front of Lambeau. . Lucas had a great story about him in teh State Journal that shows how special he is. Favre went out of his way to ignore young players. Here is a guy that was a nobody that AR single out and encouraged.

 https://madison.com/wsj/sports...51-cc67828d3b4e.html

Amazing story. Thanks for posting it.

Floridarob posted:

And if anyone reads the REAL news for what kind of player he is off the field he will eventually have the biggest statue in front of Lambeau. . Lucas had a great story about him in teh State Journal that shows how special he is. Favre went out of his way to ignore young players. Here is a guy that was a nobody that AR single out and encouraged.

 https://madison.com/wsj/sports...51-cc67828d3b4e.html

Very cool, thanks for the link!

He's a first ballot HOFer.  Two MVPs, a Super Bowl, and from 2011 through 2014, he was the best QB in the league.  

IMO, the HOF is getting watered down by statistics and team accomplishments.  Guys should only go in if they were at the top of their position for multiple years.  Too many QBs, WRs and RBs are getting in because of stats.  Not enough OL and defensive players get in because their are no stats that prove their contribution.  

As for Brady, it's too hard to separate him from Bellichick.  If Brady goes to Cleveland or Miami instead of the Patriots, does he have a HOF career?  If the answer is no, then not sure you how you say Brady is the greatest ever.  On the flip side, Manning could have ended up anywhere and been a HOF QB.  So does that make Manning better?  IMO it does but it's useless to argue.  

I think everyone has their own semantics when it comes to things like "all-time" or "top 10". To some it's the number of championships (and/or Superb Owls). To others, it may be based on pure stats. And on and on.
And nobody's really right or wrong. 

Personally, my list would always start with the QBs from the 1950's - 1960's. The true field generals that had to call their own plays. 
And that's likely selling QBs from previous generations (Herber and Isbell) short. 
But Starr and Unitas were the generation I grew up with, and I learned some history from the ones who preceded them or were closer to the end of their careers, so they will always be the greatest to me.

Boris posted:

There ain't no way Brady is #1 in this discussion. I don't GAF how many rings those cheating bastards win either. Top 10 sure but he ain't #1.

Yep, Brady is Phil Simms with an offense built around him. (Simms should be in the Hall of Fame, it's a joke he's not.)

Boris posted:

There ain't no way Brady is #1 in this discussion. I don't GAF how many rings those cheating bastards win either. Top 10 sure but he ain't #1.

The Brady GOAT discussion makes me want to punch a fucking wall. 6 rings thanks to Belichick makes him a GOAT? Boston sports fans are the worst in sports... and that’s including Vikings fans. 

I think Manning is overrated.  I would never penalize him for the Bronco SB, but against the Bears?  Very average.  Saints?  Threw a pick 6.  They were favored to beat the Steelers one year and lost big.  Many losses to the Patriots.

I give the clutch gene a lot of priority.  Brees definitely Top 10?  Really?  I would take Rodgers over him in a heartbeat and no disrespect.

Rodgers Top 10 all time (for me).

Another QB that never enters the conversation probably deserves consideration. If I told you that a QB had accomplished the following what you would you say. 

A win-loss record of 120-93

Took his team to the playoffs 6 times. 4 Division playoffs and 1 Conference title game appearance. 

Lead a team to a 14-2 record one year but got beat by Brady/Belichick in the playoffs. 

381 TDS and 182 interceptions. 

Thrown for more than 20 TDS 13 years in a row. 

Thrown for over 4000 yards 10 times in a season

Made 8 Pro Bowls

That all looks like a HOF resume, right ?

That's Philip Rivers. 

MichiganPacker2:
Lead a team to a 14-2 record one year but got beat by Brady/Belichick in the playoffs. 

Was that the playoff loss where their DB intercepted it and had he taken a knee, the game was over?  But, he ran with it and fumbled.

Brady's bomb afterwards was pretty much perfect.

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