Its the players not the plays

It is easier to scapegoat the coaches or the players currently on the roster, but I would agree that the Packers need a talent upgrade.  To win championships, you need blue-chip players.  Rodgers and Matthews are about as blue-chip as it gets, and Lacy is on his way.  After that, it is a roster full of good-not-great players.  TT has done a great job on building the depth, but the Packers need more difference-makers.  Charles Woodson was a difference-maker.  Nick Collins was a difference-maker.  Greg Jennings was a difference-maker.  Those players got old/injured, and their replacements have not been as effective.

Yup.  I think it's high time to string along a few seasons where the Pack finishes amongst the bottom dwellers.  ;0)

No, of course not! But maybe its time (next year) to get a top level free agent or trade a draft pick like we have in the past for a player of need. A "shut down corner" might be a good start or perhaps a safety.

PackerPatrick

 

You're not allowed to talk about getting significant FAs on this board.  It's blasphemy.  The only way to build a team is to D & D, draft and develop...the TT way.  Use the cap to sign your own upcoming FAs.  And don't ever target a position in the draft.  Only go after the BPA, best player available.

 

By using the above strategy, it makes it easier to lament about things like the poor safety play since Collins was lost. Or the poor ILB play or lack of outside rusher opposite of Clay.

Yup get a bunch of free agents. There is no such thing as the salary cap. Who needs to sign Shields, Jones, have money to extend Nelson ect.

Teams can  have bad years, this is the Packers turn.

And coaching has nothing to do with how well a teams does, just look at the Saints and Niner's.

Agree with it's the players for the most part. Disagree with lack of talent because drafting at bottom of rounds

 

The center of the 3-4 are the LB's.  We have three 1st round picks at starting LB---Perry, Hawk and Matthews.  Perry can't stay healthy but does show some flashes when he is playing.  Hawk is simply average at best-maybe he is "available" every week, but he simply can't get it done.

 

If the heart of this 3-4 scheme is for the middle LB's to make tackles, this scheme doesn't work because neither Jones nor Hawk can consistently tackle at or near the line of scrimmage---and if the line doesn't keep them "clean" they can't make any tackles because they can't get off blocks.  Add in the lack of two safeties who can tackle, and the heart of the defense has been exposed.

 

I don't disagree with draft and develop--because we don't have the cap room to get a big time free agent, and very few big time free agents have panned out.

"Too many years drafting at the bottom of the board has finally caught up with us."

 

 

Yep. That's why the Patriots suck. Got it.

In the heart of the 3-4 scheme is the requirement for the middle LB's to make tackles, this scheme doesn't work because neither Jones nor Hawk can consistently tackle at or near the line of scrimmage...

modified to express the sentiments I have finally come to admit.  They flash at times against favorable matchups but when the pavement hits the gravel they're dancers.

Collins was a classic draft and develop.  Although drafted in the second round, he showed flashes his first year or two but it took him until his third year before he became the player that was an all-pro player.

TT's made some mistakes  that appear pretty obvious (backup QB and safety), but the notion that recent developments have discredited his core philosophy is absurd. 

I am never really all that dogmatic with my view points, but I disagree that we have as low of talent on this team as stated in this thread.  My God, our receivers are awesome and are difference makers, they just need a QB that can at least play average as a back-up and an o-line that will provide enough time to throw the fricken ball.  Lacy is a blue chipper!  The root cause for the lack of offense are all the injuries.  How long do yah think Brady would last with that current O-line?  And, yeah, we need an upgrade in the O-line as well.

 

As for the defense, I am more inclined to accept the lack of talent hypothesis as a strong contributing factor especially at ILB and safety positions.  But, I am still confused as to why that fricken D-line sucks so badly.  In addition, Capers scheme as of late is way too soft. Regardless as to what extent, if at all, Capers to blame, the Packers need a big change on D and where better to start? 

 

As for TT and MM, I am not even close to thinking a change there is needed.    

Completely disagree packer Patrick.

The philosophy still works. Yes they have some holes to fill but the foundation is there. It is working.

Losing Cobb, Finley, Jones for a couple games plus offensive linemen & oh...by the way, our superstar quarterback makes it awful tough to compete at a high level.

Knee jerk reactions like firing coaches aren't the answer, however some changes definitely need to be made.

I still wish Thompson woulda drafted Ogletree over Datone though, he was one of the BPA's at a position very much in need

Boris, yes I agree that the philosophy is not a bad one except when players are lost to injury. My point is that it needs to be supplemented with a limited FA pickup as well as a trade. Also, coaching can only do so much. As my daddy said "You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear". And we have some real sows ears playing.

The Patriots picked up lots of FA's and did not mind a trade and letting a player go.

 

Way to go to the extreme to try to make a point.  Who said anything about signing a "bunch of free agents"??  Who said anything about not considering "the salary cap"??  Who suggests the packers shouldn't "sign Shields, Jones, have money to extend Nelson".

 

Signing your own FAs can be as risky as signing FAs from other teams.  I'll bet a lot of posters have changed their opinions in the past few weeks as to whether or not Raji should be signed for $8 million....or signed at all.

 

Take a look at the Niners' roster.  Lots of high round picks.  But they also have a lot of free agent signings that start/play significant roles on that team.

 

Jonathan Goodwin

Anquan Boldin

Mario Manningham

Justin Smith

Ahmad Brooks

Carlos Rogers

Donte Whitner

Eric Wright

 

How about the Saints' roster.  Lots of FA pickups there (or trades):

 

Brees

Sproles

Grubbs

Bunckley

Lofton

Vilma

 

My point is that draft and develop is a great strategy.  But it's not the only strategy.  Mixing in some FA signings while still developing your own talent works for a lot of teams.  Using only young, drafted players to fill holes can take too long.  And for a team that has an opportunity to win ever year, it may not make sense to only fix problems through the draft.  Rodgers will not be under center forever, and i doubt the Packers willbe lucky enough to replace an aging HOF QB with another star AGAIN! Not immediately anyway.

So you sign big name free agent and he goes down injured. Instead of having mid draft players as reserves you have mimimun pay street free agents as depth.  TT system worked in 2010, for some reason this year it is not.

 

As for Raji, I don't think 1 poster on here thought he was worth $8 million per year.  I'd let him walk and use that money on a player TT traded up  for in 2nd round and get a more blue chip player.  That player could be DL, LB or safety.  Very good OL can be found in later rounds. It seems to me high draft OL often don't live up to their hype.

I can safely say, that I believe, that if the Packers do not sign an above average (non street-)  free agent this year....they never will under TT.  Woodson and Picket were great signings that TT was willing to make.  If there is a need that can be filled that way, I have to believe that he would.  Well, those needs are there this year.  Too many needs to simply fill with the draft or development (and great QB play).  I've always thought TT was willing to use FA if necessary...well, this off season will tell me if that is true or not.

 

*Note, I'm not saying its the right or wrong philosophy...I'm just saying that if TT doesn't see a need to use FA this offseason, I doubt he ever will.

 

Take away Brady, Gronkowski, and Edelman or Amendola and tell me the Patriots go 3-2 over the last 5 games. 

 

 

Obviously $8 million seems too much, but I'll bet a lot of posters were in favor of re-signing Raji to an extension a few weeks ago as opposed to now.

 

Take away only Brady for that stretch and they're probably definitely worse than 3-2.

When the Packers got back to GB last night Raji didn't go home, he went straight to Russ Ball's office looking for the contract.

I would think that If they played 3 of those games at home against crummy teams they may have won at least one to keep them in the race.

Pats were 5-1 with Brady, but without Gronk.

 

Pats were 3-0 with Brady, but without Amendola.

I think if Bulaga, Sherrod, and Bacteria, and Trettor were all available, our OL would be kicking ass and AR wouldn't have missed 5 games. But injuries have turned our OL into mush.

 

Also, IMHO, if Franscios (sp), Lattimore, and Richardson weren't hurt, they'd be starting. And if Hayward weren't out, Hyde might be at safety. Which I think is his natural position. As it is our interior D is mush. 

 

That's 5 positions where I think starters are out besides AR, Cobb, and Finley. Damn important positions.

AR's injury, IMO, is not because of the OL.  It was just a freak tackle that resulted in a slight fracture. He wasn't taking a beating or anything. Just flushed from pocket and was landed on awkwardly.

McClellin (sp) was on him unblocked.

The OLs in the history of football give up sacks, unblocked sacks, etc.  AR could have just as easily been injured if he had the Cowboy's OL from the 90's or the Packers OL from the 60's.

 

My point is that he wasn't getting hammered all game.  And it wasn't even a hellacious hit.  He just got landed on awkwardly and the bone fractured.

@PackerUpdate 

No shock players are standing behind Dom. He hasn't held any of them accountable for years. A new DC would mean plenty of personnel changes.

By the way, McClellin was blocked out out of the pocket by Barclay, AR scrambled to his right after not getting his first read in the end zone, and then got landed on after the scramble.

 

At least that's how it looks to me.

 

The point is we could have a kick ass OL without the injuries. Barclay and certainly newhouse probably wouldn't sniff starting time.

 

So these kneejerk reactions about FAs in the offseason are just that, kneejerk, because no one can predict which of our starters are going down early in the season. And when they come down in multiples to a unit that need cohesion like OL, it just compounds the problem.

 

MVP, HOF bound, QBs tilt the field... in all 3 phases of the game. The achilles for McCarthy is he hasn't adopted to life without Rodgers. In 2008 when Brady went down in the 1st game, Cassel went 10-5 as the starter. In 9 of those 10 wins they ran the ball more than 30 times. I'd bet they were facing many 8 man fronts and they were able to run the ball because of adjustments on how they lined up  - they disguised their intentions. The PATs were running with Kevin Faulk and BenJarvus Green-Ellis. 

 

 

this!

they were able to run the ball because of adjustments on how they lined up  - they disguised their intentions.

But did the Pats also have their 2 projected starters at tackle out too?  I'm talking Sherrod and Bulaga here.

Great posts H5 and Ammo. McCarthy's calling plays like AR's still in there and his OL is still intact.

As many have posted here many players need to be replaced. However, I am not sure Teddy would be willing to do that. Perhaps (as Boris posted) A DC like Lovie Smith could influnce him to pick up some larger ILB's like he had for the Bears.

Larsee

 

Why is any talk of free agency "knee jerk" or construed by some posters (many) a terrible way to build a team or enhance an already good team??  Why do so many think the only way to build a team is through D & D and that the Packers should only concentrate on signing their own  would-be FAs??

 

The Packers have one SB under Thompson.  All of the others were won by different teams.  And they don't all follow the D & D philosophy.  There's more than one way to skin a cat is all I'm saying.  Why can't there be both - draft/develop and some FA signings to fill in holes??

 

Safety has been a problem since Collins retired.  They've drafted players, but a couple of years later it's still a problem.  Unles, of course, we're still waiting for the draft picks to develop.