Its the players not the plays

IMO, there might be 4-5 posters here that truly have a grasp of the Packers current salary cap situation, who are Packer FA's and UFA's, and player contracts through 2015-2016 and which of those players are very likely going to be offered new deals to remain in GB. 

 

Im not one of them. Not remotely close to one of them. So when I spitball that we need an ILB or a Safety, it's just me spitballing. I try to stay away from the FA guessing game because I couldnt really tell you what's available to spend and what's going to be available to spend. Yes, guys like Huff and Reed come up and the $$$ are reasonable so It makes sense to my you kick those tires. 

 

But all the calls for GB to dive into the FA market always come up after a playoff loss or losing streak. And I just want to know who those FA's are and how much is available to pay for them?

 

SF is pretty deep in FA's right now but a big reason they are is because Kapernick hasn't been paid yet. That's coming. Fast. Not to mention all those early draft picks. 

 

i guess the bigger question is what camp are you in? There's a draft/develop philosophy that works provided you have the single biggest component, a true franchise QB and build around that. Or do you go heavy into free agency and blow your load in a short window trying to win a SB? In 2013 you're not spending heavily in free agency and staying at the top for a prolonged stretch. You're eventually going to pay for not developing youth. So yeah, you can roll the dice and possibly hit but theres going to be some dark years in between. If you draft and develop and do it well you may sniff a SB or two but you may come up a bit short because you're missing one or two pieces of talent that either didn't develop or won't develop. In my opinion it's the right course because if you've done things well and you stay healthy you're at least in the discussion each year. 

 

I also don't think its possible to pick a lane and dabble in the other either. Draft and develop and dip you're toe into the FA pool once in a great while seems to make the most sense to me....but like I started with, I don't know if there's any money actually available to pay a potential FA. My gut tells me there isn't if you've drafted well and havent overspent where you shouldn't. Which I guess is another thread entirely.

 

 

I think the defensive players are much better than the product put on the field in the past 5 games. They do not appear highly motivated or assignment sure.  

SF and Seattle are on a mission to win the Super Bowl before they have to start pay big salary. SF will be the first of the 2 team to have big cap problems, that team will be torn apart worse then the Ravens have been.

No, they had LT-Matt Light for all 16 games and started Nick Kaczur for 14 games. Kaczur was a 3rd rounder (in '05) who was also selected in the 1st round by CFL Toronto. Kaczur started 62 of the 68 games he was with the PATs.

 

Agree with this. 

 

Look at the Saints.  They pay their SB winning, MVP QB a ton of cash, draft well and play a little bit in the FA market. Take a look at their roster.  Outside of a crappy season last year (losing their coach probably was  factor), they are perennially a contender for the Super Bowl.

 

It seems like any time someone brings up free agency, the real knee-jerk reaction is for posters to go to the extreme and suggest that the implication being made is the Packers should drop the D & D philosophy and go 100% into free agency.  That's not it at all.  Lots of successful teams use the draft AND free agency/trades to make their teams better.

TT brought in Jeff Saturday to fortify the center position so obviously he's not opposed to dabbling in FA. The problem with FA is the best signings are often the ones you don't make. I think his relatively conservative approach is the proper one.

I agree about a conservative approach.  Like I said in other threads, TT has a winning formula.  But D&D is not the only way.

 

I don't know who's gonna be available at Safety in the FA market this off season.  But does anyone think the solution at Safety is currently on the Packers roster???  It's been a problem for 3 years since Collins retired.  So the Draft comes around in April, and we all know, TT's draft MO is the BPA, right?  Suppose a Safety isn't the BPA in the first couple of rounds.  I guess we go with what we have or hope to catch lightning in a bottle with a late rounder, right? Otherwise, we go into next season with a hole at Safety....again.

 

Like I said, I don't know who is gonna be available, and at what price.  But free agency definitely has its merits if played right.  It worked for TT in the past.  No reason to think it can benefit the team in the future.  It doesn't have to be "all or nothing".

 

I see your point.

 

This. They have D players running around not sure where they should be and who don't stay where they know they should be. They have no faith in the defensive call so the backfield especially seems to be freelancing and making it up on the fly. It's like a bunch of Sharpers back there. 

Other teams lose players and bring more in for a Looksee.

 The Kansas City Chiefs tried out five defensive players with star outside linebacker Justin Houston sidelined with an elbow injury.

They worked out former Washington Redskins defensive end Hall Davis, defensive tackle Chas Alecxih, defensive tackle DaJohn Harris, linebacker Delano Johnson and defensive tackle Martin Parker, according to a league source.

 

The Indianapolis Colts tried out four players this week.

They worked out tight end Steve Maneri, running back Toben Opurum, defensive back Terry Hawthorne and defensive tackle Jeris Pendleton.

None were signed but at least they looked.

 

I'm not against FA. But some toss it around like a magic potion. First, a FA might not want to sign with GB. It's too cold for the wife, no night life, grudge against coaches, grudge against GB players, dissed his cousin, too far from family, play in the frozen tundra in Dec and Jan, whatever. Who know what a FA wants besides money. Second does he have anything left in the tank or does he get the payday and sit in the whirlpool. Third does the Cap allow it. Fourth TT has to rely on what his coaches tell him they want and what they see in their player evaluations vs the FA. Maybe the FA is getting bitchy in his old age and the word is he won't mesh in the lockerroom.  Who knows.

 

Just because we want somebody doesn't mean he wants us.

 

 

Regarding the Saints. If Brees misses the last 5 games they are a great bet to go 0-4-1 as well. 

 

Really quick, without looking. Who is the Saints backup QB?

Give us the list of bargain Ss, ILBs, pass rushers you would have signed that were dying to sign with GB.

I'm not suggesting the Packers would be better without AR if they dipped in FA.  You're comparing apples to oranges.  The biggest problem with the Packers right now is:

 

1. Injury to AR

2. Injuries to key offensive weapons

3. Poor defense (see #1 and #2 which is part of the reason)

 

With Rodgers (and all of the other warts) GB is probably leading the Division and in the hunt for the #1/#2 seed.  But with AR, is their Safety play improved?  Do they have they player(s) on the roster to build on at Safety?  What if the BPA in the draft is not a safety??  Same problem next year. What about ILB.

 

Again, any time FA comes up, those opposed to it seem to think it has to be an "all or nothing" strategy. 

I about fell out of my chair on that pic.

"And don't ever target a position in the draft" Like Lacey and Franklin ? Bulaga and Sherrod?

 

This team has a pile of youth with potential. How many of them do you flush in the pursuit of a quality FA ?  I get the wanting a FA to plug a gap here and there but a lot of these young guys are not finished products yet.

Wait until Christmas time when Chickenboy makes his triumphant return...you'll be in stitches

Free agency discussions would go much better if the individual suggesting it provided names and how much they would be willing to spend and/or how much Green Bay actually has available. 

 

I think there's immediate opposition because there's usually not enough information to continue the discussion. 

The opposition usually comes into play around the opening of the FA signing period, and a certain vocal minority here loses their sh!t because Green Bay didn't back up the Brinks trucks for the likes of MArio Williams (that's paying dividends for the Bills), Darelle Revis (0-8 start was magical), and so on.

 

Great point Chili. Plus we watch teams like the queens and redskins stink up the joint annually in FA. Seems for every bargain FA there's 10 like Jennings that never move their new team's needle.

Chili et. al.

 

What would you do moving forward, if you were the GM, regarding the ILB and Safety positions?  I don't know who's gonna be available in FA, just like I don't know who's gonna be available in the draft when the Packers can pick. 

 

Banjo or Richardson might be an answer. Of course McMillan or Jennings were thought highly of last year.  At LB, maybe Lattimore? See McMillan and Jennings.

 

Again, I'm not advocating that Free Agency is the way to go.  It just seems that any time it gets brought up, a bunch of posters mock it as if it couldn't possibly be an option at any position at any time.

 

quote:

I think there's immediate opposition because there's usually not enough information to continue the discussion.

 

I agree with this 100%.  Of course, there's usually not enough information to discount free agency either.

Agree for this year. Next year there will be a few available. Yet I think that trading a draft pick for an undervalued player or trading up in the draft. Perhaps we could let a player go and that frees up money. (However, I think we let Woodson go one year too early)

Not bringing some semblance of a thought out argument is part of it... but also completely ignoring Thompson's (proven) approach is the other part of the oppositions response.

 

20 of the Packers (current) 53 were signed as FA's.

Not to mention wasting $3.6 million or so on AJ Hawk.

 

Strategic FA signings are part of building a team. Remember when TT actually did that with Woodson or even a Pickett.

Who completely ignores TT's track record??  Again, free agency gets brought up and those opposed make 'extreme" statements to prove some point. It would be akin to me stating you don't think the Packers should ever sign a free agent.

 

Building a team doesn't have to be all or nothing in terms of free agency.  It can be both.  And I think when most people talk about free agency, they're not necessarily referring to undrafted free agents.

By the way Hungry5, you seem like a knowledgeable Packers fan (being serious, not patronizing).  Answer my question above.  What would you do about the Safety and ILB positions on the Packers moving forward?? What about TE?  What about CB?

 

Those are all positions of need after this season (actually even next week), and the draft won't fix all of them.  The DL is a little thin too. 

 

Just curious if you think D&D is the answer.

For those wanting "name" FA's at safety, the 2 likely getting the most hoopla going into the 2014 FA season would be Jairus Byrd out of Buffalo and TJ Ward from the Browns.

 

Ward is the second-highest ranked safety behind New England’s Devin McCourty, according to ProFootballFocus.com, and tops against the run. One league talent evaluator told cleveland.com that Ward is a top-five safety in the AFC, and rates him better against the run than in pass coverage.

 

 

 

 

Ok who wants to start holding their breath?

 

 

This years Packers are both.

30 drafted

3 off waivers

20 FAs

 

 

*** this is not a personal affront direct at you necessarily ***

Right, UDFA don't count. The league is full of UDFAs who make the pro-bowl, win Super Bowls, and just flat out ball week in and week out. To ignore them in the FA discussion is myopic to say the least. So when most people talking about FA do not include UDFAs, they are only exposing their own idiocy of how to build a sustainable winning football team.

Ted does a great job in talent evaluation.  His record with UDFA is remarkable, not only with the players on the Packers, but his drafted players and UDFAs who play on the active rosters of other clubs. 

 

My comment above about FA versus UDFA is that teams don't generally look to UDFA to fill a hole in the starting lineup, or substantial playing time for that matter.  I just meant that most conversation about free agency is generally about current players in the league who are available.  UDFA are a completely different story because it's not about cap space or immediately filling a position of need (as opposed to high draft picks often).

 

We are just slow and weak. I read that we missed something like 20 missed tackles. Also, their DL just pushed out OL back every play. One cannot coach up a slower weaker player. We got pushed around on the lines and on the linebackers. Our DB,s were almost always late. If TT is planning on sticking with the draft and develop philosophy then draft bigger and faster.

TT was directly asked about his failure to address the position and he said that was just how the draft fell. It's more likely that he just had misplaced faith in the development of McMillian. He's already demonstrated that BPA can be pushed aside to address a need, although he's unwilling to admit it.

 

 

 

Thanks, but I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to fix the S and ILB problems or know what to do at TE.  That said    ...  I do have my opinions. I like enough of what Burnett brings to the game that if he had someone equal to him I think the Packers would be better than okay there. That may be Richardson, too small a sample to know. I also like what I see in Quarless, Bostick, Taylor, and Stoneburner, a solid but not spectacular group. There aren't too many Finley's out there with the combination of size and speed and thhe Packers will need to bring someone in. A 1st round TE like Jace Amaro would be a starter from day 1. For ILB, I'm on the bandwagon that this gap with the Packers may be the biggest issue they have on defense right now. I have supported Hawk for his available and accountable value, but his production is too inconsistent. I re-watched the Vikes game the other day and he had a solid 1st half and then was consistently moved out of the way in the 2nd half, and that happens with him too often. Being available and accountable is no longer enough. They need a thumper who can make the calls, or turnover the play calling to someone else.

 

RE: D&D  -  With the cap and limited available cash (no Jones or Snyder, or Wilf) I think D&D is the best way for GB and Thompson (and staff) have done a good job bringing in talent - the Draft part. Where we as fans get frustrated is when the Develop does not occur fast enough or not at all. Going back to Hawk, he essentially peaked as a football player when he was 22-24. He hasn't really improved since he's come into the league.

 

 

Not likely to happen with No 12 at the helm. The solution? Trade Arod for draft picks, let Tolzien and Flynn fight it out and pesto, Superbowl, baby.

 

I actually think it is the combination of the two. I have been unhappy with TT's recent penchant of drafting for need. I hope he hours back to patiently picking BPA. He was so good at it. Drafting high is overrated. The last time we had a top5 pick w got AJ Hawk. BFD.

Good post, Hungry5.

 

A comment about this:

 quote:

A 1st round TE like Jace Amaro would be a starter from day 1.

Don't know enough about him, but I'll take your opinion as being accurate.  One problem, though, would be his availability when the Packers pick, and whether or not he's valued at their spot when they pick if he is available.

 

That's why I like TT's BPA approach, but it's not always the best or only approach (sorry GL ).  The Packers may have to address Safety in the drat, but if a Safety happens to never be the right pick, they'll either have to pass one over or reach.  Free agency could be the answer.  Not guaranteed, but definitely something TT should at least explore.  And for all we know, he has, just hasn't been in the right position to pull the trigger.

Joe Montana...and he is in his prime.

If the Packers continue their recent trend they'll be picking in the 10-15 range, Jace Amaro would be there.

 

 

I don't disagree that an upgrade at ILB is needed. However, I think the gorilla in the room is NT...BJ Raji in particular. He's played very poorly during this stretch, maybe to the point of making our ILBs look even worse than they already are.

H5...I understand what you are saying about undrafted free-agents sometimes turning out to be pro bowl level players....but you have to admit that a player who has had success on another team in the NFL has a better chance of having success for the Packers than someone who has never even made an NFL roster.  No guarantees, either way, but the probability has to be higher.

 

And yes, I do know that cost is part of the issue and not being forced to over-spend.  But, the saying that the Packers have 20 FA on their roster when all but a couple of them have never been on an NFL roster before is totally different than what is being said about taking a chance on an experienced player to fill some of the gaps.

 

Believe me, I appreciate what Ted has done and know that his method has been successful....but I believe that there is more than one way to skin a cat and maybe some other options should be investigated and even attempted.  JMO.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with this statement.