Lizard man can't return soon enough. I do think he is a legit #2 WR and will make the offense so much tougher to defend than it already is.

MVS is a borderline #3 WR. Probably more a #4 where you just have him run go routes and take 1 CB out of the play if he doesn't get open. The rest of the WR's are guys that can be replaced by anyone off the street if needed.

So what we are really missing (when Adams and Lazard are healthy) is a #3 which I don't think is a big deal in this offense. We see a lot more RB's and TE's on the field and making plays compared to McDummy's offense. Would still be nice to have, though.

@H5 posted:

I'd rather bitch about Dom Pettine not putting his players in position to succeed. Attack the O and impose your will like the MiLF does with the play calling. I believe the talent is there on D.

No argument about Pettine but you are incredibly optimistic about the talent level in the middle of this defense.

I think between Martin, Greene and Barnes they are OK at LB. Might be even better when Kirksey returns but he wasn't lighting anyone up before his injury.

DL is another story. You got Clark. You got Keke and Adams making a play here and there and some stiffs that need to be replaced.

@PackerHawk posted:

Lizard man can't return soon enough. I do think he is a legit #2 WR and will make the offense so much tougher to defend than it already is.

MVS is a borderline #3 WR. Probably more a #4 where you just have him run go routes and take 1 CB out of the play if he doesn't get open. The rest of the WR's are guys that can be replaced by anyone off the street if needed.

So what we are really missing (when Adams and Lazard are healthy) is a #3 which I don't think is a big deal in this offense. We see a lot more RB's and TE's on the field and making plays compared to McDummy's offense. Would still be nice to have, though.

Any WR to be consider a 1,2 or 3 actually has to catch the ball on a consistent basis. 

MVS is absurd physical proto-type of a top caliber WR, except that whole catching the ball consistently thing.

Agree with Henry here...we've been fed a line of bullshit about WR room being OK since before Gutey took the reigns.

The best WR corps the Packers have had in the last two decades 2010-2012...Driver, Jordy, Jones, Cobb, Gerg...had serious draft capital invested in it.

Gerg was a 2nd rounder
Jones was a 2nd rounder
Jordy was basically a 1st round pick they traded into the 2nd to get
Cobb was a 2nd rounder

Yeah, you can blow draft picks on WR by taking them high, but the trend has been for the Packers (17 was a 2nd rounder), when they take one high, they pan out big time.

Even if Funchess didn't opt-out, the WR room is still a group of "big catch radius guys" who don't consistently catch the ball.

We didn't need a 250lbs RB more than we needed a solid #2 WR in the draft.

@PackerHawk posted:

I think between Martin, Greene and Barnes they are OK at LB. Might be even better when Kirksey returns but he wasn't lighting anyone up before his injury.

DL is another story. You got Clark. You got Keke and Adams making a play here and there and some stiffs that need to be replaced.

I don't think we as fans know how to judge ILB play.  It's like Chicago fans and QBs.

@Henry posted:

What's the link BTW?

Subscribers only JSO. Here is another tidbit or 2 I can post:

Packers at midseason: How they measure up to past champions

And on Defense...

Scoring defense

There is one area the maligned Packers' defense is actually doing better than last season. The Packers rank 11th in total defense , allowing 345.4 yards per game. The Packers ranked 18th in the NFL last season with 352.6 yards allowed per game. Despite that progress, they have found it difficult limiting opponents on the scoreboard. This season, the Packers' defense ranks 17th in scoring, allowing 25.5 points per game. The Packers ranked ninth last season with 19.6 points allowed per game. Of the 20 teams to play in the past 10 Super Bowls, 13 ranked among the top 10 in scoring defense. Only five ranked worse than 17th. How does a defense allowing significantly fewer yards struggle so much limiting opponents’ scoring? Turns out, that answer is pretty easy to find

Forced turnovers

Perhaps the biggest weakness with these Packers, and the issue that might most threaten to derail a Super Bowl bid, was one of their biggest strengths last season. The Packers have forced only six takeaways in eight games. Only two teams have forced fewer takeaways: the Las Vegas Raiders and Houston Texans with five apiece. The Packers were tied for seventh with the Baltimore Ravens last season with 25 takeaways. Because they rarely turn the ball over on offense, the Packers have a plus-three turnover margin this season. That’s important because only one Super Bowl team in the past decade had finished with a negative turnover margin (2015 Denver Broncos, minus-four). Still, 13 of the past 20 teams to play in a Super Bowl ranked among the top 10 in takeaways, and none ranked in the bottom five as the Packers do now.

Offense +'s= Much IMO has to go to LaFleur. He's gaining incredible respect in the NFL for how creative he is in the offense. I think that's a massive reason you are seeing these numbers look so gaudy. He's probably not at the level of Shananan (yet), but you can easily see where he cut his teeth. No way McVince does this with the group LaFleur has.

Yep.  Even more so it says a lot when working with only 2 WRs, both who have been injured this year.

I'll ask again, outside of Adams did the Packers have a NFL caliber WR corp last year?

If they had used Lazard more earlier, as many people wanted them to the season total sum would have looked better.  Also with his downfield blocking ability the rushing stats may have been better too.

@Chongo posted:

Imagine how different this squad would be if the Packers had drafted Chase Claypool who has quickly become PIT's #1 WR target...who had all the measurables Gutey babbles on about...length (6'4), size (248lbs), catch radius...oh and he ran a 4.42 at the combine compared to Lazard's 4.55.

He's the guy I wanted.

That's not what I asked. 

Weeks 1 to 5 Lazard had 0 targets.  Weeks 6 to 17 he was 34 receptions on 46 targets.  He had 0 targets vs. Seattle in the playoffs and was 3 of 4 vs. San Fran.  So my answer is yes, if they had used Lazard more early in the season they would looked like a NFL caliber WR corps.  That would have put better defenders on Lazard freeing up MVS or others to have lesser defenders on them possibly making them look better.   Not looking for a fight here, just putting out some facts to back up my limited knowledge opinion.

@PackerHawk posted:

Lizard man can't return soon enough. I do think he is a legit #2 WR and will make the offense so much tougher to defend than it already is.

MVS is a borderline #3 WR. Probably more a #4 where you just have him run go routes and take 1 CB out of the play if he doesn't get open. The rest of the WR's are guys that can be replaced by anyone off the street if needed.

So what we are really missing (when Adams and Lazard are healthy) is a #3 which I don't think is a big deal in this offense. We see a lot more RB's and TE's on the field and making plays compared to McDummy's offense. Would still be nice to have, though.

Deebo Samual instead of Tyler Ervin makes this offense unstoppable.

@ammo posted:

Weeks 1 to 5 Lazard had 0 targets.  Weeks 6 to 17 he was 34 receptions on 46 targets.  He had 0 targets vs. Seattle in the playoffs and was 3 of 4 vs. San Fran.  So my answer is yes, if they had used Lazard more early in the season they would looked like a NFL caliber WR corps.  That would have put better defenders on Lazard freeing up MVS or others to have lesser defenders on them possibly making them look better.   Not looking for a fight here, just putting out some facts to back up my limited knowledge opinion.

I know you're not.  My question serves a specific purpose.

Wouldn't you say 2 WR is a pretty thin WR corp, especially with Lazard being an unknown?

I crushed hard for Deebo last draft also but he's missed a lot of playing time.

I also said in the game thread a couple weeks ago that this offense would be silly with Claypool.  I would really like to know, or maybe I really don't want to know, if SF hadn't jumped us for Aiyuk...did Gute take Love because Aiyuk was gone?  I really hope that isn't the reason.

@Henry posted:

Yep.  Even more so it says a lot when working with only 2 WRs, both who have been injured this year.

I'll ask again, outside of Adams did the Packers have a NFL caliber WR corp last year?

Quantify NFL caliber WR. Kumerow is still in the league. Allison would be but he opted out due to the 'rona.

Few, if any, teams have a #2 who can step in and be a #1.

I'd be happy if they had a real #2.

Kumerow was just activated from the practice squad.

NFL caliber, catches the ball consistently.  Doesn't get destroyed on routes.  Can track the ball.  Needs to be accounted for in the offense

Will Fuller could have been another 1

So he costs you a 2nd rounder.  He’s an elite playmaker

Lazard is a borderline 2 IMO.  On a good team he’s a 3

The only way lazard is a #3 is if a team has 2 Pro Bowl/ All Pro WR.  Please list all the teams who have those.

Lack of turnovers on defense has to be changed.

Off the top of my head

ATL - Ridley and Jones

CTown- OBJ and Landry

MN-  Thielen and Jefferson

SEA-  Lockett and Metcalf

HOU - Cooks and Fuller

TB- Evans and Godwin and AB

KC - Hill and Hardman and Watkins

Pittsburgh trio

@Henry posted:

Yeah, I knew this would turn into "I guess I have to explain why you're a moron" thread.

Here's a hint, your obsession with shitty WRs and actually deciding to pick a fight over a year and half of failure.

This must be what it's like to engage a QAnon loon.  Join any new clubs lately?

You call this failure.

And I'm the moron.

Bottom line is, we're never going to agree and you're never going to get over yourself.   And you're never going to stop bitching about WR, apparently no matter how well the team does.

To be clear:  Neither of the losses this year are on the WR's. Tampa was one of those games that steam-rolled after the 2 pick 6's. Minnesota was on the run D.

The offense is second in the NFC in scoring at 31+ppg.  It's clicking. Why not enjoy it?   

The draft and the trade deadline passed and Gute and MLF didn't hear your spoiled-ass whining.  They liked the roster coming in (or did all they could with with the money they have).  They didn't panic or shit the bed like you still are, and the Super Bowl run starts now.  Try to enjoy it man.  Time to let it go.  Take some pills or something.

And if it's me you're hung up on, declare yourself the winner of the argument like you always do and move on.  No one cares about your bitchy-assed grudges.

31 PPG.  No, I don't think those numbers would be different with a different set of receivers behind Adams, nor would our W-L record be any different.  Big picture brother, time to get out of the WR bitch rut you seem to be stuck in is all I'm saying.

You are so rong. Jefferson is a rookie, how can he be an All Pro?  Ridley was on the all rookie team in 2018 but never all pro.  OBJ no longer with the Browns.  Metcalf is neither an All Pro or Pro Bowler.  No wards for Cooks.  I'll give you Evans and Godwin.  Neither Hardman or Watkins have won any awards.  So you have 1 team that has 2 All Pro/Pro Bowl WR.

@DH13 posted:

I crushed hard for Deebo last draft also but he's missed a lot of playing time.

I also said in the game thread a couple weeks ago that this offense would be silly with Claypool.  I would really like to know, or maybe I really don't want to know, if SF hadn't jumped us for Aiyuk...did Gute take Love because Aiyuk was gone?  I really hope that isn't the reason.

Yeah, this went through my head as well.  They lost out on Aiyuk so he blew a 4th rounder to move up and get Love?

Or not.

14 teams qualify. O.k., just this year.

You can be pretty damn good and not be an All Pro.  There are only so many spots to get awarded.  

So you’re telling me you’d rather have Lazard over Jefferson?  Over Ridley?  Heck even over Cooks or Hardman?  Or any of the 3 in Pittsburgh?  Metcalf?!?!

Cmon man. I like Lazard.  He’s a nice story. But just like the rest of this WR group outside of Adams you can’t count on them when the money is on the line.  And I’d argue the current performance and upside of most of those players I mentioned is significantly better than Lazard or anyone else on the Packers roster other than Adams.  

I just pray to the football gods Adams can stay healthy.  If not,  this passing game is pretty much dead in the water. Just like ILB, at some point they need fo spend draft capital on upgrading the WR position.  Taking flyers on undrafted guys or 5th rounders will only get you so far.

Maybe.

The most glaring thing about the Packers WR corps is the lack of speed - it has been an issue forever it seems.  MVS has straight-line speed, but is not a natural pass catcher.  Lazard, St. Brown, Funchess all have the same body type, like a flex TE.  That's important for run blocking, which I'm sure LaFleur wants, but that makes them easy to cover in the passing game.  That Gutekunst did not draft a WR at all in the recent draft is a huge indictment.

That's what I keep coming back to.  MLF wanted to prioritize the run game to be more balanced and we've heard many times about how good our WR's block.  I don't think that's a coincidence. 

OTOH, the 31ppg is a slight bit of a misnomer considering the defenses they rang it up against.  In their two losses, they were held to 22 and 10.  That isn't going to cut it against any team when your defense is having trouble.  The D puts the O in a bad spot when they can't get off the field but if you're going to rely on your O to win then they have to find ways score more vs better defenses.  Maybe a legit WR corps wouldn't have mattered vs TB  but I think it could have vs min.  IND will be the next good test for this offense.

@Tschmack posted:

You can be pretty damn good and not be an All Pro.  There are only so many spots to get awarded.  

So you’re telling me you’d rather have Lazard over Jefferson?  Over Ridley?  Heck even over Cooks or Hardman?  Or any of the 3 in Pittsburgh?  Metcalf?!?!

Cmon man. I like Lazard.  He’s a nice story. But just like the rest of this WR group outside of Adams you can’t count on them when the money is on the line.  And I’d argue the current performance and upside of most of those players I mentioned is significantly better than Lazard or anyone else on the Packers roster other than Adams.  

I just pray to the football gods Adams can stay healthy.  If not,  this passing game is pretty much dead in the water. Just like ILB, at some point they need fo spend draft capital on upgrading the WR position.  Taking flyers on undrafted guys or 5th rounders will only get you so far.

I agree with your take, but with one caveat. Lazard is not a fast guy, but he's a guy you can trust to throw to when he's well covered because he's got TE size, he tracks the ball well, and he high points it. Other than Adams, all the other receivers are guys that have to be WIDE open to justify throwing it to them. Some Lazard catches are pasted in below. I can't imagine MVS, ESB, Shepard, or Taylor doing anything like this.

Lazard is a guy with good football instincts and skills that didn't get drafted because his measurables were below average for the NFL.

MVS is the mirror image of Lazard. He's a guy whose measurables are similar to a high draft pick, but whose football skills and instincts are UDFA level. THere's a reason a guy that's 6'4 and can run a 4.37 lasted until the 5th round.

Think back when Lazard was a key in the Packs' comeback win against the loins, week 6, after Rodgers lobbied to get him in the game.

Up to week 6 Lazard had no catches at all. He finished with 4 catches, 65 yards, and 1 TD. All in the 4th Quarter!!!

Lazard dropped only 2 of 52 passes thrown at him. 12 had a 115.6 PASSER RATING targeting Lazard (compared to Adams at 99.1). He was ONE OF ONLY 9 qualified NFL players to average at least 13 yards per catch while pulling in at least 67 percent of the passes targeted his way. He was also clutch on 3rd down having the 4th HIGHEST WR RATING (143.3) on 3rd down targets last season.

Obviously, Rodgers wants to go to him. Obviously, he gets open and makes the difficult catch. With his size he can block and move the chains. This season he hasn't let up at all. IF he is a #3 or #4, he's the BEST dang #3 or #4 in the league.

Need that guy back.

@Tschmack posted:

I just pray to the football gods Adams can stay healthy.  If not,  this passing game is pretty much dead in the water. Just like ILB, at some point they need fo spend draft capital on upgrading the WR position.  Taking flyers on undrafted guys or 5th rounders will only get you so far.

??? He missed weeks 2 and 3 (both wins) and we scored 67 points, Rodgers was 48/65 for 610 yards 7 TDs and no INTs with an average rating of 136.2. Not to mention one of those wins was over our biggest NFC competition. Lazard went off for 146 yards on just 6 receptions against NO, our RBs combined for 13 receptions for 135 yards against ATL, and Tonyan chipped another 100 on 6 receptions against ATL. Just because Rodgers feeds Adams the most doesn't mean everyone else is incapable, it means Adams is that good that why the fuck would you NOT put the ball in his hands as often as possible? The offense isn't built around Rodgers to Adams, it's built around MLF and Rodgers.

@Henry posted:

Any WR to be consider a 1,2 or 3 actually has to catch the ball on a consistent basis.

MVS is absurd physical proto-type of a top caliber WR, except that whole catching the ball consistently thing.

Simple fix, maybe he needs glasses?

@Tschmack posted:

Cmon man. I like Lazard.  He’s a nice story. But just like the rest of this WR group outside of Adams you can’t count on them when the money is on the line.  

Really? If this is your take, please drop some examples of the times that the Packers counted on him and he failed to respond.

I'll just be here waiting... and waiting... 

I read somewhere in this thread he dropped 2 passes, so there's that

Yeah I mean the guy has consistently stepped up and delivered when given the opportunity. Geoff Schwartz often talks on Twitter about how difficult it is for UDFA's to overcome the stigma of that on NFL clubs and it's a big part of why UDFA's rarely become productive players compared to drafted players. It's not nothing that Lazard climbed the chain by year 2 in the NFL. He's beaten out draft picks, faster players, players from better college programs, veteran players, etc. To count him out from being a successful player a this point is a bad gamble. Look at what he did against NO? He DOMINATED them and gave himself a hernia laying out to do more. If he hadn't done that I think he turns out an extremely productive season to this point. Kid is legit.

Lazard is a legit WR.  Wasn't he cut at least once in GB?

@Grave Digger posted:

The offense isn't built around Rodgers to Adams, it's built around MLF and Rodgers.

Except that Gutey decided to use the first four rounds of the draft to start building an offense around Jordan Love to be ready to go in 2022 while the guy they have right now is having an MVP caliber season.