Packer Organization Not Getting Much Love From The National Guys

Certainly fair to criticize Gutey, but the coaching staff and players are much more culpable for this loss.

It's such a tough, crappy position to be in, but Rodgers is partly responsible for it. His play from 2017-2019 just wasn't up to par. The guy who wrote this speaks as if Rodgers was playing at a super-high level even last year, but he wasn't. All the national writers were saying that Rodgers was rejuvenated this year and playing better than ever -- and we saw it. If you watched closely the past three years, you'd be lying if you saw an MVP year coming this year. You'd say Mahomes, Jackson, Wilson, etc., but not Rodgers.

And then you're left with the age-old conundrum: go for broke and a Super Bowl and then end up being torn down in a year or so, or try to remain competitive and hope for a Super Bowl? In the first scenario, you strike it rich short-term and may end up suffering for a long time afterward; in the second scenario, you stay richer longer but may never strike paydirt. Fans tend to be fickle: come close but don't give them a Super Bowl and they gripe and groan but at least they continue going to games; win a SB and they love you right then, but if you fall hard afterward they will abandon you.

@michiganjoe posted:

Certainly fair to criticize Gutey, but the coaching staff and players are much more culpable for this loss.

Who is responsible for having those players?  On a normally-functioning team, who is responsible for hiring the head coach?  On a normally-functioning team, who hires the defensive coordinator?

@Fandame posted:

And then you're left with the age-old conundrum: go for broke and a Super Bowl and then end up being torn down in a year or so, or try to remain competitive and hope for a Super Bowl?

No such conundrum has existed in Green Bay over the past 16 years (since Ted Thompson took over). There is only one approach and it certainly is never going all in or anything close to it.

We have never once gone for broke, have signed fewer veteran free agents than any other NFL team (though certainly more since Gutey took over), and never once having made a trade for big-time player.

There is no other organization in the NFL that has focused more on the future of the team rather than just the present that the Green Bay Packers.

I think when national folks look at the lone SB appearance for Rodgers (and just 1 appearance for GB this century), they are less enamored with the Organization's approach that appears to just be regularly competitive than are those Packer fans who have come to accept that is just how things get done in Green Bay.

Sports "journalism" being what it is these days, it's more important to create a controversy of some sort than it is to be factual. Much like building a strawman, a reporter will think of an angle and look for any 'evidence' to support it. If none exists, they will create their own.

Like most arguments on any subject, there are 2 sides (or extremes, if you will) and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Local press tends to be supportive, national press tends toward creationism, and nobody knows the real story other than the people directly involved.

Also, this era of fantasy football-think and the desire for instant gratification plays a role, especially as it relates to fans and media. Everybody always has an opinion, and will express and/or argue them vehemently, but the bottom line is opinions are like... well, you know the rest.

@Phil posted:

Who is responsible for having those players?  On a normally-functioning team, who is responsible for hiring the head coach?  On a normally-functioning team, who hires the defensive coordinator?

Just don't see Gutey as having the primary culpability for this one. The soon-to-be league MVP needed to play better and head coach that's been receiving rave reviews also didn't get it done.

The Pack has just made a few too many personnel mistakes to win a title this year.  Josh Jackson, Oren Burks, J’mon Moore, signing Dean Lowry to a contract he doesn’t deserve, etc. etc.

It’s frustrating to be as close as they were this year, but all those wasted picks and mistakes come back to bite them when they are up against the best competition. One thing is for damn sure, their 1st round pick this coming year has to be an immediate contributor and not somebody that takes zero snaps the whole year.

It is still a "players game". How many individual defensive players could we say played "really well' yesterday? Clark and Alexander? Where were our 2 FA OLBers? The Smith's had no impact on the game. Bucs two outside rushers did.

Does anyone look back still on 2005 and say “gosh I wish Ted would have gone all-in before the 2006 season like Tompa Bay instead of drafting Aaron Rodgers. Wish we had Roddy White right now!” Unless your owner gives you a mandate that you win a SB in the next 2 years, GMs have to be looking further ahead than that. Gute obviously hasn’t been perfect, he’s missed some opportunities, but honestly this was entirely a team loss and that includes Rodgers. In the past it’s been clear defense issues, but the offense blew plenty of chances to take control. No one failed Rodgers this time.

Rodgers purposely creating this narrative that his future is uncertain? Very mid-2000’s Brett Favre of him.

What is never taken into account by these "national" guys that write this garbage is the Packer ownership structure.   While the Packers have deep cash reserves they do not have a owner with deep pockets who is willing to lose millions just to reach a Super Bowl.  The Packer are very dependent on fans supporting the team.  Another year like this with no fans in the stands could be financially crippling.   Then add in the former fans who have turned their backs on pro sports in general due to BLM protests, fans not buying team gear and that income stream goes down too. 

So when we talk about the Packers not doing this or doing that much of it financially driven with the foresight of the teams long term future.  The salary cap is basically the only thing that lets the Packers survive and be competitive year after year.  Rodgers himself could be taking $10 million a year less, still live quite comfortably, which would give the Packers the ability to provide better players which may have allowed him to get another ring.

tampa won all year with the ILB's.  they are the key to that machine and they were present yesterday and week6

@pkr_north posted:

tampa won all year with the ILB's.

Agreed pkr_north, those ILBs Tampa has are the best duo in the NFL. You combine those guys with Pierre-Paul and Barrett and that's the best LB crew in the NFL. Pierre-Paul and Barrett won the battle vs. our Offensive Tackles in both games and that was a significant reason the Pack lost both times.

@Grave Digger posted:

Rodgers purposely creating this narrative that his future is uncertain? Very mid-2000’s Brett Favre of him.

I can't blame him for being emotional after this one.  You watch the garbage Special Teams this team has week after week and then it helps Tom Brady get some nice easy short fields to work with while you get none.  You watch the Packers draft your replacement that ends up playing 0 snaps when you needed 1 more WR and/or someone to help the defense. 

He carried this team as far as he could and it's got to be exhausting and frustrating to know that he can only do so much and have guys around him just not step up. 

Now I will say this... if Rodgers really wants to help the Pack and himself, re-work that contract a little bit to free up some cap room.  I hope he's willing to do that... Brady was willing to do that in New England. 

The Packers are not alone with only having very few Super Bowl appearances even though they have had a crazy run of success.  Two teams that come to mind are the Saints and the Colts with Peyton.

The one thing I will place blame is the lack of identifying good defensive players.  Alexander, Kenny, and Z are great players but who else really is?  I see TB flying around being very physical and I don't see  that from the Packers.

If the Packers had won the Super Bowl do you think any of these fuckbags would be stepping up and saying "Well I guess I'm a dumbass...Gutey DOES know what he's doing!"

@fightphoe93 posted:

I can't blame him for being emotional after this one.  You watch the garbage Special Teams this team has week after week and then it helps Tom Brady get some nice easy short fields to work with while you get none.  You watch the Packers draft your replacement that ends up playing 0 snaps when you needed 1 more WR and/or someone to help the defense.

He carried this team as far as he could and it's got to be exhausting and frustrating to know that he can only do so much and have guys around him just not step up.

Now I will say this... if Rodgers really wants to help the Pack and himself, re-work that contract a little bit to free up some cap room.  I hope he's willing to do that... Brady was willing to do that in New England.

Why the hell would he do that the year after they draft a QB with the #1 pick?    Pride won’t and shouldn’t allow that.  

Give me a break. At yesterday's Fox pre game show leading up to the NFCC game, panelists like Colin Cowherd were GUSHING over Gutey and the Packers organization. Going on and on about how the Packers continue to find gems in the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds (e.g. the OL) and how the Packers have built a core of talent of guys not taken in the 1st round.

Flip over to NFLN and ESPN, same shit. "Experts" and pundits going on and on and throwing compliments about Matt LaFleur and Brian G. and yes, Mark Murphy for hiring La Fleur.

The articles posted in this thread are knee jerk reactionary bullshit. These same exact writers would be doing a complete 180 had the Packers pulled out the win.

Their "journalism" is click bait. Pure and simple. Most of these national writers don't have a clue about the inner workings of GB or what it takes to build a winning organization.

Brady trusted BB and the FO to make it happen when it came restructuring his $$$.

@The Heckler posted:

The Packers are not alone with only having very few Super Bowl appearances even though they have had a crazy run of success.  Two teams that come to mind are the Saints and the Colts with Peyton.

The one thing I will place blame is the lack of identifying good defensive players.  Alexander, Kenny, and Z are great players but who else really is?  I see TB flying around being very physical and I don't see  that from the Packers.

Yes when you compare everyone against Brady’s situation then everyone’s record seems weak. When you factor out Brady and compare Brees, Manning, Marino, Rivers, etc. you realize it’s 1) damn hard to win a SB and 2) even harder to build a dynasty. The funny thing is that everyone seems to universally agree the Patriots are cheaters yet there’s no tarnish on Brady’s record.

@michiganjoe posted:

Just don't see Gutey as having the primary culpability for this one. The soon-to-be league MVP needed to play better and head coach that's been receiving rave reviews also didn't get it done.

My point was that Gutey is responsible for the players, but then the other problem is MLF was forced to keep Pettine.  I see disfunction in the power structure in GB.  You have a CEO who made Gutey keep MM.  Then they fired MM and told MLF he had to keep Pettine.  And while I am unfamiliar with Russ Ball's role, it seems that he has to do with the Packers having such a passive mindset.

It all leads to the end product we see on the field.  The Darius Shepards, the Kevin Kings, Chandon Sullivan, the lack of ILBs, lack of DL besides Kenny Clark.  A solid #2 receiver and we have MVS and Lazard at #3 and #4.  Too bad Funchess opted out.  Would be nice to have a Barry Stokes or a Kevin Barry to plug in as a replacement instead of shuffling.  Mike Sherman definitely was good with the OL.

I agree that Rodgers should have played better.  I was frustrated to see our guys getting chucked 20 yards down the field, or held, etc, on a regular basis.  Two FG's on goal-to-go situations.

I hated going for 2.  I agree with the FG.  I would give them about a 30% chance at the TD, and 40% on the ensuing 2pt attempt.  The FG allows you to hopefully get the last possession, keeps the Bucs from driving for the win.  Unfortunately, Kevin King played horrible technique all game long and the refs decided to flag him, even though it didn't look catchable.  The Bucs WR did a good job flailing his arms to sell it.  The play at the end of the 1st half should mean the end for King as well as Pettine.

You have to get better.  If you don't get better, you get worse.  That includes improving the roster.

@michiganjoe posted:

Just don't see Gutey as having the primary culpability for this one. The soon-to-be league MVP needed to play better and head coach that's been receiving rave reviews also didn't get it done.

Gutey does bear some responsibility.  MLF and ARod also bear some responsibility. Pettine bears responsibility, too! Now, we are in a tight spot with our salary cap. King will be gone. Jones will be gone, others will be gone, as well, and some are coaches.  I think the talk of ARod leaving is a scare tactic, but who can blame ARod for being frustrated? ARod deserves a lot of the blame for his poor passing and his decision making in the NFCCG. Throwing into double coverage to Davante, when others were wide open in the end zone, was a poor choice. Another was him not running the ball towards the end zone on that 3rd down play when we were on the 8 yard line. If Davante makes that one catch, in the end zone, or keeps his feet inbounds, on the other end zone play, we win this game. Only getting 7 points on 3 Brady INTs, sucked big time, too!

@Grave Digger posted:

Rodgers purposely creating this narrative that his future is uncertain? Very mid-2000’s Brett Favre of him.

Rodgers did take the novel approach of doing it after the team drafted a QB in the first round

Since AR himself said the future is uncertain folks are going to run with it.  If he said I can't wait to get back on the field with these guys they run with that.  If he said Iwas all in for going with the field goal they run with that.

If he is as smart as we think he could have used different words to set the narrative, he chose the words he wanted to use.

It was the collaborative impact of about 7 things going wrong that cost us this game.   Some of them are excusable, like Adams drop and Rodgers not playing his best.   Some are not excusable, like calling single high with 6 seconds left in the half.  

Thats absolutely demoralizing and the fact that the players put it behind them and made this a close game in the 2nd half is a credit to their character.  

Once again an Aaron Rodgers led team had to overcome shit coaching and game management.   I thought those days were past us with the emergence of MLF, but at the worst fucking time, Mike Pettine pulls that shit.  

He needs to be fired today.  We can not afford to go the MM route and hang on to pour assistants too long.   We got two more years of Rodgers at the most, MAKE THEM COUNT YOU ASSHOLES.  

In the post-game, Rodgers was very honest, and a little less measured in his comments. For someone who is often extremely mindful of what he says and how he says it, yesterday seemed, to me, to be a pure emotional response. I'm not reading too much into it.

Yeah it was emotional, but you have to think he's beyond frustrated. Yeah, you can sit there and second guess whether or not we should have gone for two...for the record, the fucking play worked...yeah the ball was tipped, but it actually put it in the perfect place for EQ to catch it...IT HIT HIM IN THE FUCKINGS HANDS!!! If you're an NFL fucking receiver, you make that catch. Yeah, #17 could have dropped it too...but not bloody likely. Right now, Gutey has surrounded him with project players...some of them are finally paying off, like Tonyan and MVS (IF he continues to hang on to the ball)...but Lizard hasn't exactly been the model of consistency. You need guys that make big plays in big moments. This offense has maybe 2-3 of those right now outside of 12.

The OL did the best they could...losing Bakh was a gut punch...because we are not deep enough to deal with that cascading effect.

ST and D were exactly what we saw all season...a few big plays, surrounded by mediocrity. I will actually give the D credit yesterday...it wasn't like they had many of those "we can't get off the fucking field" drives...but that was tempered by he complete failure at the end of 1H. That play was the difference-maker.

Pettine has 70% of the salary cap dedicated to his defense...it was middle of the league at best. ST was near the bottom of the league.

Gut says bald man isn't going anywhere. 50/50 they let MLF go get a Ron Zook type to come in and coach ST as an exercise in "hey look, we are committed to winning!"

12 will be back unless he just completely walks away...which given how competitive he is, I doubt that happens. But I don't blame him one bit for being a little ****y at the podium. He's held his tongue and taken the high road most of his career.

There is a world of difference between “mortgaging the future completely” and “doing nothing”.

The Packers have always erred far closer to the doing nothing side of that equation, and they have always been competitive for the most part for nearly 30 years. And the national guys that are focused on only titles don’t give the anything close the credit deserved for a franchise that hasn’t has to rebuild even once in 30 years.

It’s hard to win the Super Bowl, it’s nearly impossible without a great QB. Seeing the franchise rarely getting aggressive and making a big move to win with the luxury of a sure fire hall of fame QB for the last 5-10 years is something that can and should be questioned. Seeing Gute do almost nothing to make improvements for 2020 after coming off an NFCC especially, can and should be questioned.

Well, If the goal is to win the Super Bowl that is. If the goal is simply being competitive and winning the North more often that not, then mission accomplished.

I think Ryan Wood nailed Rodger's comments.  AR knows this was a Super-Bowl caliber team and that a lot of cuts will need to be made with the salary cap next year.  Will be a lesser roster, for sure, and much harder schedule next year.  These opportunities are few and far between.

Not to be an apologist but I have a hard time putting much blame on AR for yesterday's game.  He wasn't perfect but please point out to me what QB's have had perfect performances in a championship game, where you usually see a top D.  He's played better games this year and a few worse but what were the D's he was facing in those games?  He played more than well enough to win that game and clearly outplayed Brady.  Asking much more of him yesterday when receivers are playing hot potato and AJ took a pigskin laxative is really unfair.  You're basically expecting him to play an errorless game against the best D in the NFL.  Are we that spoiled at QB?

Honestly I’m not sure how you can blame Rodgers for this loss.  At all.  Yes, he airmailed Davante a couple of times but did you see how poorly St. Brady threw the ball yesterday?   3 picks and probably could have had more.  Even the last play on the PI call he was off by a lot (uncatchable) which makes the call that much more maddening.  On the only Rodgers pick clearly our guy was interfered with versus Brady overthrowing numerous guys or lollipop throws all game.  

I know it was in the moment, but I do wonder about Rodgers comments after the game.  Could he pull an NBA and demand a trade?   He has every right to be frustrated.  He’s getting bashed for coming up short in these NFCCG losses but unlike Brett at times he didn’t cost them playoff games with numerous picks and bonehead plays.   Once again, it’s inept coaching (both MLF and Pettine) and the defense failing him.   It’s also possible that Rodgers was personally disrespected on the FG play late in the game with MLF and while it might be petty Rodgers may never get over that.

Something else to consider is Rodgers wasn’t drafted by Gute.  He has no loyalty to him.  I’m sure he’s miffed about Love and more importantly not surrounding him with more weapons.  

If the Colts called us today and said we’ll offer you Jonathan Taylor, Darius Leonard, and 3 first round picks for Rodgers would you do it?   The Colts have a good young talented squad and Reich is a legit coach.  

It's always going to come down to the contract.  Minus the contract, if the FO really believes in Love, you probably take that deal.  Though IND's draft position this year is not great.  SF could offer a sweeter deal with draft position and players but then you're dealing with him in your conference.

SF vs GB.....AR vs Love....now that would be must see tv

@DH13 posted:

Not to be an apologist but I have a hard time putting much blame on AR for yesterday's game.  He wasn't perfect but please point out to me what QB's have had perfect performances in a championship game, where you usually see a top D.  He's played better games this year and a few worse but what were the D's he was facing in those games?  He played more than well enough to win that game and clearly outplayed Brady.  Asking much more of him yesterday when receivers are playing hot potato and AJ took a pigskin laxative is really unfair.  You're basically expecting him to play an errorless game against the best D in the NFL.  Are we that spoiled at QB?

To answer your last question. YES.

@Pikes Peak posted:

SF vs GB.....AR vs Love....now that would be must see tv

If that happens what's the over/under on AR's passing yards and SF's offensive points? 500 and 40?

Some thought Henry would rush for 300

Our D did well enough stopping the run vs TB.  TEN couldn't throw on a snowy field and their OL can't pass block on a regular basis.  TB doesn't seem to have that problem.

@DH13 posted:

Our D did well enough stopping the run vs TB.  TEN couldn't throw on a snowy field and their OL can't pass block on a regular basis.  TB doesn't seem to have that problem.

Yes.  The point I was trying to make is we make game projections all the time that don't turn out.  

@ammo posted:

What is never taken into account by these "national" guys that write this garbage is the Packer ownership structure.   While the Packers have deep cash reserves they do not have a owner with deep pockets who is willing to lose millions just to reach a Super Bowl.  The Packer are very dependent on fans supporting the team.  Another year like this with no fans in the stands could be financially crippling.   Then add in the former fans who have turned their backs on pro sports in general due to BLM protests, fans not buying team gear and that income stream goes down too.

So when we talk about the Packers not doing this or doing that much of it financially driven with the foresight of the teams long term future.  The salary cap is basically the only thing that lets the Packers survive and be competitive year after year.  Rodgers himself could be taking $10 million a year less, still live quite comfortably, which would give the Packers the ability to provide better players which may have allowed him to get another ring.

Ketchman has said in his blog many times that the FO will never mortgage their future for the present.  They're not going to put themselves in a financial bind with big signings and pushing tons of money out.  Their not having a deep pockets owner is one of those reasons.  It's the responsible thing to do.  You may or may not agree with that strategy but expecting it to change is setting yourself up for disappointment. 

Because of that, their personnel people need to be better than everyone else's so they can find better players for less $ and lower in the draft.